J
Jerry
Guest
"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mitsgFpbeU1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
: news:je1bne$8id$3@dont-email.me...
: >
: > "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:9mifvpFemsU1@mid.individual.net...
: >
: > <snip>
: > : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The
10A
: > plug has 3
: > : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that
provided
: > by the pins,
: > : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
: > weight of the
: > : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
: > installation I saw
: > : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
: > circuit breaker
: > : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
: > :
: >
: > But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK
bridging
: > out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to
string a
: > large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that
has
: > increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
: > (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and
kitchens).
:
: Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket
for the Italian
: plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly
good.
On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
out of the socket from a distance.
Also the
: Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a
matter of
: luck.
Not relevant on anything that doesn't have a single pole switch,
and surely a BS1363 plug with a figure 8 style lead is as bad,
more so because the user might be unaware of the risk of pole
reversibility? Even then, nothing to stop someone reversing the
polarity in the plug due to transposing the +/- cables. Or, and
quite possible since the EU wide harmonisation of wiring colours,
transposing the conductors at the socket.
Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
: BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.
Funny that, I have such an older un-sleeved plug sitting on my
desk ATM, as I said elsewhere, there must be many millions of
such plugs still in existence and otherwise serviceable... It's
only been comparatively recently that people have been discarding
appliances still with the plug attached, the most common reason
being that it has a moulded on plug, but then these dire
contraptions have caused their own safety problems to those who
have been lulled into this fails sense of electrical safety.
:
: I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad
thing just
: because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat
it. The
: overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than
13A, I don't
: accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is
somehow
: cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.
If an idiot can defeat the safety device that has been place
there so that idiots are safer then the safety measure has by
definition failed! But heck, if you're right then, judging by the
majority of countries (even just within the EU), the UK has been
totally OTT with its own electrical safety. You have made my
point for me!...
:
: As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results
in an
: increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired
with 3A cable
: in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your
notion that
: safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will
ignore them.
Actually I had not given Part P much thought before it was
imminent and could see the intent behind it, only then, whilst in
conversation with a couple of registered electricians (thus would
get Part P registration) that Part P came up and *they* expressed
doubts over the regs effects and the likely hood of the scenario
was put to me - OK so 3A flex might be unlikely but still
possible. Also IIRC the same sorts of doubts,about Part P's
actual effect on hazardous area safety, were expressed on the
uk.d-i-y group.
: >
: > Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
: > electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
: > dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference
for
: > the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
: > practises?
:
: I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety,
which is true.
: I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an
Italian
: installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.
Well yes, to the point of being bleedingly obvious, and a UK
installation would fail a Italian or USA electrical safety check,
different strokes for different folks and all that!
: >
: > Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense)
make
: > something unsafe.
:
: A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that
BS1363 plugs
: are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the
fuse!
I'm saying *anything* can and will be unsafe if miss used,
attempting to make something 'idiot proof' (which the vast
majority of the UK's domestic electrical regulation, such as
BS1363, attempts to do), does is induce complacency amongst those
most at risk.
:
: > As long as the rating of the socket or
: > conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I
note
: > that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
: > conductor used in these Italian instillations...
: > --
:
: I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what
it was.
So it could have actually been as great or greater than the
underlaying instalation, thus your pouint was what, exactly?
But I
: do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected
to those
: plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to
handle up to
: 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a
flex of that
: cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or
less. OK, I
: accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now
that new
: appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a
less than
: perfect safety system is better than no system at all.
:
So, given an identical appliance with a 0.5 sqmm flex/lead/power
cord -call it what you like- lets get what you're saying
straight; so there *is a problem in Italy * because it is
protected by a 25A MCB, but there /is no problem in the UK/ even
though (without any idiots intervention, as set out by myself
above) if a fault occoured it would be protected by a 30A MCB due
to the vagaries of slow-blow BS1362 fuses? Yeah, that's
logical...
--
Regards, Jerry.
news:9mitsgFpbeU1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
: news:je1bne$8id$3@dont-email.me...
: >
: > "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:9mifvpFemsU1@mid.individual.net...
: >
: > <snip>
: > : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The
10A
: > plug has 3
: > : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that
provided
: > by the pins,
: > : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
: > weight of the
: > : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
: > installation I saw
: > : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
: > circuit breaker
: > : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
: > :
: >
: > But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK
bridging
: > out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to
string a
: > large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that
has
: > increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
: > (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and
kitchens).
:
: Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket
for the Italian
: plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly
good.
On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
out of the socket from a distance.
Also the
: Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a
matter of
: luck.
Not relevant on anything that doesn't have a single pole switch,
and surely a BS1363 plug with a figure 8 style lead is as bad,
more so because the user might be unaware of the risk of pole
reversibility? Even then, nothing to stop someone reversing the
polarity in the plug due to transposing the +/- cables. Or, and
quite possible since the EU wide harmonisation of wiring colours,
transposing the conductors at the socket.
Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
: BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.
Funny that, I have such an older un-sleeved plug sitting on my
desk ATM, as I said elsewhere, there must be many millions of
such plugs still in existence and otherwise serviceable... It's
only been comparatively recently that people have been discarding
appliances still with the plug attached, the most common reason
being that it has a moulded on plug, but then these dire
contraptions have caused their own safety problems to those who
have been lulled into this fails sense of electrical safety.
:
: I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad
thing just
: because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat
it. The
: overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than
13A, I don't
: accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is
somehow
: cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.
If an idiot can defeat the safety device that has been place
there so that idiots are safer then the safety measure has by
definition failed! But heck, if you're right then, judging by the
majority of countries (even just within the EU), the UK has been
totally OTT with its own electrical safety. You have made my
point for me!...
:
: As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results
in an
: increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired
with 3A cable
: in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your
notion that
: safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will
ignore them.
Actually I had not given Part P much thought before it was
imminent and could see the intent behind it, only then, whilst in
conversation with a couple of registered electricians (thus would
get Part P registration) that Part P came up and *they* expressed
doubts over the regs effects and the likely hood of the scenario
was put to me - OK so 3A flex might be unlikely but still
possible. Also IIRC the same sorts of doubts,about Part P's
actual effect on hazardous area safety, were expressed on the
uk.d-i-y group.
: >
: > Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
: > electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
: > dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference
for
: > the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
: > practises?
:
: I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety,
which is true.
: I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an
Italian
: installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.
Well yes, to the point of being bleedingly obvious, and a UK
installation would fail a Italian or USA electrical safety check,
different strokes for different folks and all that!
: >
: > Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense)
make
: > something unsafe.
:
: A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that
BS1363 plugs
: are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the
fuse!
I'm saying *anything* can and will be unsafe if miss used,
attempting to make something 'idiot proof' (which the vast
majority of the UK's domestic electrical regulation, such as
BS1363, attempts to do), does is induce complacency amongst those
most at risk.
:
: > As long as the rating of the socket or
: > conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I
note
: > that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
: > conductor used in these Italian instillations...
: > --
:
: I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what
it was.
So it could have actually been as great or greater than the
underlaying instalation, thus your pouint was what, exactly?
But I
: do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected
to those
: plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to
handle up to
: 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a
flex of that
: cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or
less. OK, I
: accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now
that new
: appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a
less than
: perfect safety system is better than no system at all.
:
So, given an identical appliance with a 0.5 sqmm flex/lead/power
cord -call it what you like- lets get what you're saying
straight; so there *is a problem in Italy * because it is
protected by a 25A MCB, but there /is no problem in the UK/ even
though (without any idiots intervention, as set out by myself
above) if a fault occoured it would be protected by a 30A MCB due
to the vagaries of slow-blow BS1362 fuses? Yeah, that's
logical...
--
Regards, Jerry.