Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lx8ejj4.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes:

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:
[]
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller.

It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the
BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like
these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's
hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable
entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <slrnjg5rac.ref.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> writes:
[]

Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a
substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen,
especially with abuse.

As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find
the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more
reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the
pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be
shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember
when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding
must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier
comments about the ratings being far more than required for most
appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area
rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem.
(Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)]

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.
[]

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

 

[Jerry]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in
message news:u9FLCOgo+0APFwAC@soft255.demon.co.uk...

[re the BS 1363 plug ]
<snip>
: must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see
earlier
: comments about the ratings being far more than required for
most
: appliances anyway,

But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that
their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A.

: >
: >Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two
round pins
: >like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin
: >in the center and below them like this:
: >
: > O O
: > O
: >
: >The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin
makes contact
: >first.
: []
: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as
the
: "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is
actually a
: socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to
plug in
: a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the
wall plate incorrectly...
--
Regards, Jerry.

 

[John Williamson]

J G Miller wrote:

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

http://www.marque-nf.COM/

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

 

[Scott]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller <miller@yoyRG>
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if
one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with
RCDs I'm not sure that still applies).

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

http://www.marque-nf.COM/

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

 

[J G Miller]

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

<http://www.marque-nf.COM/>

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

 

[Max Demian]

"Eiron" <Evelyn.Carnate@live.com> wrote in message
news:9mgajoFggcU1@mid.individual.net...

On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

Eiron wrote:

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html


Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters.

If it breaks off inside the socket you will just have to use the same socket
all the time.

--
Max Demian

 

[Max Demian]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnjg610n.3s1.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...

Jerry wrote:
Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old
ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

That was so Curry's could charge you an extra Ł1 for the plug. Or drag the
equipment round to Woolworth's and get one for 50p.

--
Max Demian

 

[The Other Mike]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.


--

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <9mh6a4Fhq4U1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> writes:
[]

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most

(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <slrnjg5qra.ref.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> writes:

Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

There _had_ been assorted sized plugs with three (round) pins, but the
different sizes were purely for current (2A - rare, mainly in shop
windows - for lighting, and 5, 10, and 15A for other appliances), they
all ran on 240/50.

As for bulbs, the four main types - large and small bayonet, and large
and small Edison screw - had all been on 240/50 since well before 1970.
Large bayonet was almost universal anyway; large Edison screw being the
norm in most of western Europe. The bayonet fitting - especially with
Bakelite and even most later thermosetting plastics - tends to become
brittle and bits break off with the continuous heat produced by a
lightbulb; nevertheless, it is still the overwhelmingly commonest
fitting.

Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.

Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
in both places had a switch on the back.

Or a tapping you moved (on a transformer, or dropper resistor, though
those were declining).

The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)

There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.


Geoff.

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel

interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as
those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too); there are rectification
plants, I think one being in or near Hawkinge. (Not sure how they
convert it back to AC.) [I've also been told that, despite the public
being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different
times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has
never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction,
other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <VtedndoAX_2Sk57SnZ2dnUVZ5tqdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:

All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in
Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in,
due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch
the contacts.

That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length -
only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket outlets
have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers
slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC

Correct.

[I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[J G Miller]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC
(and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia
if there are any, are too)

Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections.

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg>

RED existing

GREEN under construction

BLUE tentative, plans provisional

Scotland could be linked to Iceland!

 

[Dave Platt]

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

.... with a turntable plinth made of neutronium... properly flinched,
of course.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cRmH5almZ5APFw1+@soft255.demon.co.uk...

In message <slrnjg5qra.ref.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S. Mendelson
gsm@mendelson.com> writes:
Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)

Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

David.

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!

And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped
to acquire!

David.

 

[David Looser]

"John Williamson" <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug
will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which
wire is live.

I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3
thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins,
so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the
flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw
large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker
of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.

David.

 

[David Looser]

"The Other Mike" <rootpassword@somewhereorother.com> wrote in message
news:g837g7dqh2odo5shhkvafp5klrf766ds0q@4ax.com...

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

In the 1920s and 1930s many "audiophiles" did indeed run their amplifiers
and radio receivers on lead-acid batteries as it was believed to be
impossible to make mains operated equipment totally hum-free (of course
those who lived in rural areas often didn't have the choice).

The original Western Electric cinema sound equipment used lead-acid
batteries for the exciter lamp and the early stages of the amplifier. Dual
batteries were provided so that one set could be on charge whilst the other
was in use.

David.

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mifkvFcb9U1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
: >
: > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's
: > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
of
: > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
: > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
to
: > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: >
:
: And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
might have hoped
: to acquire!
:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--
Regards, Jerry.