Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[brightside S9]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:41:21 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller <miller@yoyRG>
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC
(and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia
if there are any, are too)

Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg

RED existing

GREEN under construction

BLUE tentative, plans provisional

Scotland could be linked to Iceland!

Getting ready for independance don't you know.

--
brightside S9

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mifvpFemsU1@mid.individual.net...

<snip>
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--
Regards, Jerry.

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mifiiFbrvU1@mid.individual.net>,
david.looser@btinternet.com says...

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cRmH5almZ5APFw1+@soft255.demon.co.uk...
In message <slrnjg5qra.ref.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S. Mendelson
gsm@mendelson.com> writes:
Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)


Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

In Italy, in 1964, a friend found that his electric razor wouldn't work,
so he switched it to 110V. Problem solved!

When he finished shaving, he complained his razor seemed to be getting
unusually hot. I looked up at the nearest light bulb and noted that it
said 130V!

--

Terry

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:524c03e423dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <VtedndoAX_2Sk57SnZ2dnUVZ5tqdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
: Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
: > All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's
stay in
: > Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged
anything in,
: > due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug
and touch
: > the contacts.
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket
outlets
: have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent
your fingers
: slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.
:

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs
having finger stops whilst un-switched sockets are actually very
common than Mr Plowman suggests, especially in 'to a price' built
housing, such as local authority, starter and MOD stock or were
the idea is to discourage disconnection of the appliances, such
as fridges, freezers or VCRs etc.

So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
in existence and use.
--
Regards, Jerry.

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lx9fca1.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,
allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk says...

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC

Correct.

[I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

Yes. A consequence of Merkel's knee-jerk reaction to the Japanese
tsunami by shutting down the nuclear plant and getting caught with her
knickers down when the lack of wind stopped all the windmills. I think
it was the first time that the UK had been a net exporter of
electricity.

Take a look here:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Look at the graph for November (bottom right).

I wonder how Germany will fare if we get a repeat performance but with
much lower temperatures all over Europe so that all other countries need
all of their energy to supply their own needs?

--

Terry

 

[JW]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:27:13 +0000 The Other Mike
<rootpassword@somewhereorother.com> wrote in Message id:
<g837g7dqh2odo5shhkvafp5klrf766ds0q@4ax.com>:

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

How about carving a flywheel from a black hole?
(Getting it rotating may be problematic, though...)

 

[Jerry]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
news:je1bnf$8id$4@dont-email.me...
:
<snip>
:
: Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
: experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
: late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs

Oops, late '70s/early 80s...

 

[Jerry]

"brightside S9" <address@replyto_is_not.invalid> wrote in message
news:um98g795up4huietkr551mrqtk6hl2pit5@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:41:21 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
<miller@yoyRG>
: wrote:
:
<snip>
: >
: >Scotland could be linked to Iceland!
:
: Getting ready for independance don't you know.
:

That figures, two economic basket cases...

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <cRmH5almZ5APFw1+@soft255.demon.co.uk>,
G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk says...

In message <slrnjg5qra.ref.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> writes:

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
school there in the late 50s.

Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.

When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

--

Terry

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
news:je1bne$8id$2@dont-email.me...

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mifkvFcb9U1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
:
: > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's
: > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
of
: > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
: > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
to
: > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
:
:
: And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
might have hoped
: to acquire!
:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--

You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it that you
have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up children, and
that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a subject in
giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.

David.

 

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <jdvi98$akn$1@dont-email.me>, Jerry
<mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:524bd4a560noise@audiomisc.co.uk...
: In article <jduot1$g1g$1@dont-email.me>, Jerry
: <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

[Snip]

:
: Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's BS1363
plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of sockets,

So no stats on either.

: > But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
actually be
: > protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
person using
: > the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A.
:
: How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
fuse wire (of
: any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
decades. is that
: what you are referring to?

No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as the
BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot can do it,
they probably will,

Again, not really comparative stats.

Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: being a significant problem?
:

Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to now
come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse?

Why do you thing that asking a question is a substitute for having the
relevant statistical data to compare the outcomes for different systems? If
the UK system "wasn't for consumer convenience" then your implication is
that is was for some other reason - e.g. safety. Hence arguing against your
earlier implication that shuttering hasn't any value.

I appreciate you have loads of opinions. But I was asking if you had any
reliable stats.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <4v-dnX4-PdhWep_SnZ2dnUVZ8s6dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
usenet.aug2009@adslpipe.co.uk says...

John Williamson wrote:

Eiron wrote:

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html

Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

A bit late in the day, perhaps, with so many laptops now using earthed
'clover leaf' connectors?

I must admit I much prefer the figure-of-eight connector. By the time
you take the much smaller cross section of the cable into consideration,
it makes the whole thing much more compact.

Also, I have an even more compact cable fitted with a 2-pin Euro plug
for continental excursions ...

--

Terry

 

[recursor]

On 01/03/2012 04:04 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?

Every time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mg7vnFrbmU1@mid.individual.net>,
johnwilliamson@btinternet.com says...

Terry Casey wrote:
In article <9mg6rvFed4U1@mid.individual.net>,
johnwilliamson@btinternet.com says...
Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html



Problem solved. HTH
Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm


404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

Funny that it has a metal earth pin but is only available with a figure-
of-eight connector/cable - see my comments about this up-thread.

I note that a cloverleaf adaptor is mentioned on the site but no details
are available, including how to buy it!

Can a 2-pin to 3-pin adaptor be legal?

On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?

Incidentally, since the move from 2 to 3-pin laptop PSUs, has anybody
else noticed that the pound shops seem to be awash with figure-of-eight
mains leads these days ...?

--

Terry

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <cRqH5ZkWJ5APFw1I@soft255.demon.co.uk>,
G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk says...

In message <9mh6a4Fhq4U1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> writes:
[]
So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.

That's because the Shuko plug is also non polarised, whereas the French
variant is.

--

Terry

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations

Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
(My emphasis).

David.

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mirlpF8s8U1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
: news:je1bne$8id$2@dont-email.me...
: >
: > "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:9mifkvFcb9U1@mid.individual.net...
: > : "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
: > : >
: > : > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
: > UK's
: > : > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other
types
: > of
: > : > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst
being
: > : > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK
parents
: > to
: > : > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: > : >
: > :
: > : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
: > might have hoped
: > : to acquire!
: > :
: >
: > Care to explain why you think that, or are you more
interested in
: > gratuitous effect?
:
: You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it
that you
: have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up
children, and
: that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a
subject in
: giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.
:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
news:je1bne$8id$3@dont-email.me...

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mifvpFemsU1@mid.individual.net...

snip
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket for the Italian
plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly good. Also the
Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a matter of
luck. Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results in an
increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired with 3A cable
in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your notion that
safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will ignore them.

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety, which is true.
I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an Italian
installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe.

A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that BS1363 plugs
are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the fuse!

As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--

I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

David.

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9misioFfk0U1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
: >
: > Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: > electrical installations
:
: Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I
know is that
: after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
: (My emphasis).
:

Actually re-reading Arny's original comment (and the context),
it's about as clear as mud as to which electrical system he was
referring to! Besides I was replying to Mr Plowman's comments
(and inaccuracies) about the UK so there, so less of the "you"
please. :~P

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

You really are a contemptible piece of work aren't you Jerry? Even if I
wasn't already aware of your ignorance about children from coming across you
in other forums, your earlier statement would be enough to tell me that you
have no knowledge of the subject. For your information, Jerry, its very
small children, those too young to understand the concept of danger or to be
taught not to poke things into sockets, yet who are intensely curious and
mobile who are in danger from unshuttered sockets.

David.


>