Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ac9f71adave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <qZudnVHjyYvV1rTSnZ2dnUVZ8jmdnZ2d@bt.com>,
: Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
: > > You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more
uniform recently
: > > - all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug
regardless
: > > in event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in
a plug is
: > > beyond most.
: > >
: > I suspect that's because the average person goes into a
shop and buys
: > a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find
it's
: > fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any
better or just
: > not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits
the plug
: > anyway.
:
: Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

Whooossshhhhh.... Whilst there is a problem with incorrectly
wired plugs there is a bigger problem of plugs fitted with the
incorrectly rated fuse.

:
: > It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: > certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a
dead short.
: > It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: > UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: > (hopefully)correct fuse.
:
: Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could
only just
: blow a fuse of that rating.
:
: Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of
0.5mm^.
: Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

So a flex fitted to a plug that has had its fuse bridged out will
likely start to melt if feed from a ring circuit should the
appliance become faulty (short circuit), is that what you have
finally grasped Plowman, BINGO! Also don't assume that all
properties are protected by RCD's etc, many are still protected
by slooooooow acting fuse wire.

The risk is, this 3 amp flex *you* keep talking about will behave
exactly like a fusible link-wire as it *will* be the weakest
link, now should that flex be trailing across the carpet or some
other flammable item, such as curtains or the odd magazine left
on the floor next to the reading lamp.... OTOH if fed from a
radial circuit protected at 15 amps (or better and more likely,
via 5 amp socket off the lighting circuit) it will be the breaker
at the panel and not the flex that will be the weak link.

 

[Jerry]

"tony sayer" <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uJVocmQGYTKPFwj3@bancom.co.uk...

<snip>
: Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main
other
: then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could
do on ANY
: system?..
:
: I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...

I don't suppose you have ever come across a murder either, does
that mean that murders don't happen either?

 

[Jerry]

"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:MHebmdBaLTKPFwHs@jasper.org.uk...

<snip>
: Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things,

Only an issue if the panel is sited in a typical UK location
within the house...

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:35:24 -0500, JW wrote:

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our homes,
even in the boiler or utility room.

That explains Lucas.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyqie63.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk...
: On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:35:24 -0500, JW wrote:
:
: >>> Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living
room.
: >>
: >> What makes you think we do?
: >
: > Why else would you care what it looks like?
:
: Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our
homes,
: even in the boiler or utility room.
:

Actually it is just what one is used to, a bit like driving on
the right or left, anything else looks or feels weird...

Anyway, looking at the average sized UK consumer panel these days
(12 way + plus incoming main switch and such circuit switches
[1]) they are starting to look very heavy and 'industrial' anyway
(if one looks beyond the magnolia self coloured plastic cases),
gone are the days when one could get away with a slim-lined 4 or
6 way consumer unit...

[1] with the prospect of even more dedicated radials being
specified in the next few years

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle. Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Jerry]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:asidnWoZHLU0LLTSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com...
:
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
: >
: > In article <4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
: > Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
: >
: > > There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan
of the house.
: > > The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and
: > > electric stoves.
: >
: > Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on
any outlet in
: > the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an
individual radial
: > circuit. As would water heating.
:
:
: A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is
more than
: your fragile rings can handle. Who is going to move a dryer
from room
: to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in
anywhere, but why
: would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

In the UK, cookers *are* normally supplied by their own dedicated
supply, OTOH cheapskates like Plowman don't tend not specify
dedicated supplies to other high rated appliances such as washing
machines (that heat their water) or clothes dryers, nor will they
provide a dedicated supply to appliances that suffer other
problems if isolated, such as freezers.

:
:
: > > Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
: > > The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a
typical breaker
: > > panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.
: >
: > Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it?
Why have
: > different numbers according to what side of a line you live?
:
:
: Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that
tighten
: the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it
rusts. In
: some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead
of
: steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules
in the
: NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others
limit the
: maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences
all over
: Europe, which is your side of the line.

Hahahaha, people like Plowman are as rabid about 'European'
electrical standards as they are about the US standards, "Little
Britains" through and through... :~(

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is the
fucking point,

You do not advance your argument by the use of foul language.

just the non availability of a replacement
fuse -*as others have pointed out also*.

No, "others" were refering to internal equipment fuses.

You wholly refuse to
accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket.

Its not "terrifyingly easy" to find a screw, bolt or bit of metal that will
fit into the fuse holder. Its actually far easier to take a fuse from
another plug.

For the
same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper with
the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
protection.

No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not protected
at 30amps.

They can be, BS7671 permits radial circuits protected by 32A circuit
breakers. If you were the expert you try to claim you are you'd know that.

David.

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9otrpbFgjdU1@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
: >
: > Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is
the
: > fucking point,
:
: You do not advance your argument by the use of foul language.

Poor diddums, news:alt.moderated.nursery-rhymes is that away
===>>>

:
: > just the non availability of a replacement
: > fuse -*as others have pointed out also*.
:
: No, "others" were refering to internal equipment fuses.

Angles dancing on pinheads, if an internal fuse can be bridged
there is nothing what so ever to stop the same happening with
fuses fitted into BS1363 plugs (or even FCUs).

:
: > You wholly refuse to
: > accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
: > style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
: > when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket.
:
: Its not "terrifyingly easy" to find a screw, bolt or bit of
metal that will
: fit into the fuse holder. Its actually far easier to take a
fuse from
: another plug.

Only in that mythical land called Utopia, in the rest of the UK
it is terrifyingly easy, as you and others have admitted above,
but you are so far up your BBC theory books that you can't see
the daylight anymore.

:
: > For the
: > same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper
with
: > the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
: > protection.
: >
: > No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not
protected
: > at 30amps.
:
: They can be, BS7671 permits radial circuits protected by 32A
circuit
: breakers. If you were the expert you try to claim you are you'd
know that.
:

Well yes, and as I said way up, an idiot could indeed hard wire a
table light into a special, dedicated (such as cooker), radial
circuit but that is hardly the designed for easy access that a
BS1363 plug has been designed to allow -people don't even need
any (proper) tools these days due to those horrid moulded on
plugs with externally accessible push-in/pull-out fuse
holders....

 

[David Looser]

"Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4f298157.5289806@news.eternal-september.org...

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:52:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Wad'y mean "back in the olden days"? That's the same now, except that the

radial circuit for the cooker would be rated at 45A.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Lights on a ring? never met that one. There's nothing in BS7671 to suggest

putting lights on a ring (though to be fair there's nothing to forbid it
either). What BS7671 does now require is the lights and power on any one
floor are not served by the same RCD.

David.

 

[David Looser]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:asidnWoZHLU0LLTSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.

David.

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <F6ydnR1m56TtSLrSnZ2dnUVZ8o2dnZ2d@bt.com>,
ron@lunevalleyaudio.com says...

On 31/01/2012 00:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article<slrnjie1ll.72u.abuse@news.pr.network>,
Paul Ratcliffe<abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News)
dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)

There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have
Oyster.

Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus.

When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no
place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'.

You must buy a ticket before you board if there is a ticket office
available but it there is not, or it is closed, you should buy your
ticket from the driver. As in London, fares paid on board buses and
trams are higher than pre-paid tickets

Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
tickets.

No different to London (well, Croydon trams) but Revenue Protection
officers can pop up anywhere and extract penalty payments ...

I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
system is remarkably cheap.

There is a difference between cheap and theft ...

So that you know what to do next time, look here (in English):

http://www.delijn.be/en/vervoerbewijzen/types/index.htm

De Liin operates buses and trams in Flanders. If you are visiting
Wallonia, the operator is TEC (Transport En Commun) and ticket info is
here (also in English):

http://www.tec-wl.be/index.aspx?PageId=633072402227864348

In Brussel/Bruxelles the trams are operated by STIB/MIVB (Société des
Transports Intercommunaux de Bruxelles/Maatschappij voor het
Intercommunaal Vervoer te Brussel):

http://www.stib.be/index.htm?l=en

--

Terry

 

[m]

David Looser wrote:

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote in message
news:ndydnYh855BfVbvSnZ2dnUVZ5rudnZ2d@giganews.com...

After all, the Right side is the right side...



You mean the French side

and German and...


The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic on
the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still followed the
old Roman rule of passing on the left.


The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have figured out
to make cars of either format on the same production line, etc.


Yes, its not a big deal. Although I have never driven across a land border
between left and right passing countries myself (its hard to drive across
the English Channel!) I have watched traffic crossing the border between
Thailand (drives on the left) and Burma (drives on the right). It all seemed
to work very smoothly.

David.

Except for the entrance to The Savoy Hotel in The Strand which is the
only place in UK (as far as I know) where traffic enters on the right of
the entrance road (so that the nice doorman can open the side door to
let the customer out)

Mike

 

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

Anyway, looking at the average sized UK consumer panel these days
(12 way + plus incoming main switch and such circuit switches
[1]) they are starting to look very heavy and 'industrial' anyway
(if one looks beyond the magnolia self coloured plastic cases),
gone are the days when one could get away with a slim-lined 4 or
6 way consumer unit...

Which is why I was suprised by the consumer unit in the Italian house that I

mentioned. Just 4 MCBs for a modern, 3 story house. But according to you
this was much safer than UK wiring because the plugs were unfused and they
don't use ring mains!

David.

 

[John Williamson]

m wrote:

David Looser wrote:
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote in message
news:ndydnYh855BfVbvSnZ2dnUVZ5rudnZ2d@giganews.com...

After all, the Right side is the right side...



You mean the French side

and German and...


The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right
(or more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming
traffic on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly
still followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left.


The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have
figured out to make cars of either format on the same production
line, etc.


Yes, its not a big deal. Although I have never driven across a land
border between left and right passing countries myself (its hard to
drive across the English Channel!) I have watched traffic crossing
the border between Thailand (drives on the left) and Burma (drives on
the right). It all seemed to work very smoothly.

David.



Except for the entrance to The Savoy Hotel in The Strand which is the
only place in UK (as far as I know) where traffic enters on the right of
the entrance road (so that the nice doorman can open the side door to
let the customer out)

And so that the passengers and driver don't have to stretch across the

cab to exchange payment.

It took an Act of Parliament to make it so.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

 

[m]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Amsterdam in the '60s had a system where no money changed hands on the
trams. You bought books of tickets in a shop. Can't remember exactly how
evasion was policed.

They were honest - unlike the 70% of passengers on the Bendy-buses who
didn't pay.
Hence having to have squads of heavily protected "revenue inspectors" at
various points supported by Police (one of whom got slashed in the
throat around here (West ealing) when confronting a fare evader.

Another reason to get rid of those silly things (and replace them with
the nice new double-deckers rather than the expensive Boris buses)

Mike

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jgc6al$dl2$1@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

: > Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: > necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring,

Assuming the new socket is going somewhere between two others, cut the
cable leaving some spare where the new one goes, then run in new cable to
the next. Or new cable from the two existing sockets to the new. I don't
believe in saving pennies.

now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is)

Crimped connections correctly made are by far and away the best method of
connection. Have you not noticed every single loom on a car, aircraft,
computer etc is made this way?

and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

There are JBs that conform to the regs when not accessible as regards the
regs.

Strange you're putting yourself forward as an expert in domestic wiring by
contradicting the regs. Could you give your qualifications for this?

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <9otdcpFr8aU1@mid.individual.net>,
S Viemeister <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

And electric cookers?

Depends - quite a few ovens these days come with a 13 amp plug. Although
hobs normally need their own radial.

--
*Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4f298157.5289806@news.eternal-september.org>,
Don Pearce <spam@spam.com> wrote:

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Yes. And water heating.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Ring for lights? In the early days many houses were wired with just the
one ring. Next came a separate one for the kitchen.

--
*The more I learn about women, the more I love my car

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <asidnWoZHLU0LLTSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the
house. The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?

The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.

--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.