Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab5d38adave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddj$hjs$2@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it
so
: > much more
: > : difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
: > :
:
: > Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: > necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring, now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is) and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

 

[JW]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:42:30 +0000 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk>
wrote in Message id: <nBhxXKAm1VKPFwjY@jasper.org.uk>:

In article <lthii7dcg5entra6s9ja2ra2pr5tgbmfa3@4ax.com>, JW
none@dev.null> writes

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ron wrote:

On 31/01/2012 20:47, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Jerry wrote

Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.

Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired
group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm
fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around
with them.

Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell,
some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old
van to get to the gig.

Ah, you're talking about the good old days...

I used to repair guitar amps in the '60s & '70s. Some reeked of pot
o bad that they couldn't be brought into the shop until they were
sprayed down with ammonia.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <9osdhoF80aU1@mid.individual.net>,
David Looser <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote:
BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK
fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly
similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse
had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the
plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take
on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we
had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the
fuse!

One of the alternatives to the now standard 13 amp plug which was around
from about the start of the final ring circuit. Made by D&S and used by
some councils in their estates. They love to be different. ;-)

Used by the BBC too from about the mid '50s for a couple of decades for
the technical supply in studios etc. To prevent accidental use for none
technical equipment.

They were a horrible design. The fuse could work loose, and remain
sticking out of the socket when the plug was removed. They also had a very
poor cable clamp - merely a rubber grommet.

You used that crap, then condemn the US system?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry wrote:

As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.

That thin foil covered paper from a pack of ciggarettes was common in
burnt up guitar amps.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab7e0d7dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddn$hjs$10@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more
than
: > 13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to
troll,
: > it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm
on a
: > Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being
screamed
: > at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
: > what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
: > course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.
:
: Most home in the UK will have many many devices fitted with 13
amp plugs,
: and many of those also with 13 amp fuses.

Yes as I said, but many of those devices will, or might need to,
be in use to. In any case most people do not act like Magpies or
Wombles, hence why one sees so many serviceable or otherwise
appliances and electronic goods at the local waste/recycling
dumps.

:
: It would take a true idiot to spend time cutting a nail or
whatever to fit
: rather than taking the fuse from one of those other devices.
:

How long would it take to, as others have pointed out, wrap such
a fuse in kitchen foil, a length of wire or paperclip etc...

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.


Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Fuck off Yank. Patronising bastards aren't you?

Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva
fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Can't be arsed to read the regs of a foreign country, we have enough
of our own.

Yet we often are pointed to some UK or European 'standard' and told
to read it and that's OK?

You are over there and presumably know them so how many
breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US?

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves. Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

tony sayer wrote:

Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main other
then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could do on ANY
system?..

I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...

So, you investigate house fires for a living?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Ron]

On 01/02/2012 17:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article<4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

If you want to see some spectacular electrical fails, check out the

facebook group called 'Dodgy technicians'

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dodgytechnicians/

R

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:35:24 -0500, JW wrote:

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our homes,
even in the boiler or utility room.

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[S Viemeister]

On 2/1/2012 12:52 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article<4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

And electric cookers?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <qZudnVHjyYvV1rTSnZ2dnUVZ8jmdnZ2d@bt.com>,
Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more uniform recently
- all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug regardless
in event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in a plug is
beyond most.

I suspect that's because the average person goes into a shop and buys
a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find it's
fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any better or just
not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits the plug
anyway.

Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable is almost
certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead short.
It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic appliances in the
UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
(hopefully)correct fuse.

Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could only just
blow a fuse of that rating.

Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of 0.5mm^.
Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity installations is
pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)

It's fun though.

--
*The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:52:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

d

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4sWdnbbtSsxX7bTSnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab5bde6dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddj$hjs$1@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
:
: > "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
: > news:52592d9133dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: > : In article <jg3h6t$a7g$1@dont-email.me>,
: > : Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : > Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp
breaker
: > if
: > : > you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
: > lead
: > : > that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have
internal
: > 1amp
: > : > fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that
one
: > could
: > : > run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
: > :
: > : Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you
: > know
: > : nothing about.
: > :
:
: > Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking
about
: > your own failing all the time, if you really do think that
you
: > can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...
:
: Isn't that what you do, with a nail for the fuse?

Care to point out were I have said any such thing, of course not
as I have not and you know that I have not, just because someone
points out that a ring circuit allows an idiot to do something it
doesn't mean that they do it themselves - as I've said before, to
carry your 'logic' to a conclusion I take it that you also
believe that child protection experts and officers are child
abusers themselves?...

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab79ffcdave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddl$hjs$5@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw
more
: > than 13
: > : amps from a socket anyway?
:
: > I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do
so,
: > but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
: > actually defending your beloved ring circuits...
:
: It's a genuine question. What is it likely someone possesses
which draws
: more than 13 amps and comes with a 13 amp plug - necessitating
replacing
: the 13 amp fuse with a nail?

Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is the
fucking point, just the non availability of a replacement
fuse -*as others have pointed out also*. You wholly refuse to
accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket. For the
same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper with
the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
protection.

: Perhaps the obvious one would be an extension lead with
multiple socket
: outlets. But then that can be overloaded with your favourite
radials too.
<snip the rest of now usual trolling>

No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not protected
at 30amps. A radial can only be overloaded up to the maximum load
of the lead (15amps) because the protection is at the panel,
unlike with ring circuits were the lead is -or should be-
protected by the 13amp fuse in the plug.

[1] for our NA friends, who might not be aware;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Spencer#The_character_of_Frank

Hang on, FS was a BBC creation, IIRC a certain Mr D Plowman
worked for the BBC at the time, I wonder if Mr Allen was inspired
by an incompetent sound engineer at TVC... :~P

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab7046edave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddm$hjs$8@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
:
: > "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:9oqfn7Fd5pU1@mid.individual.net...
:
: > <snip>
: > : [because I have never seen such faults]
: > : I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts
or
: > bits of metal
: > : rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so*
much
: > easier to
: > : nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking
for
: > bits of metal
: > : that will fit!
: > :
:
: > As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of
bolts
: > or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or
bits
: > of copper wire.
:
: > By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not)
have
: > never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be
any
: > risk of electrocution?
:
: Well, you still appear to be here despite using all these weird
and
: wonderful things instead of fuses?
:

As I've said, to take your (trolling) logic to it's conclusion
Plowman you must regard all child protection officers etc. as
child abusers themselves, otherwise how would they know of the
risks - news:alt.troll is that away Plowman ===>>>

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525ab8292bdave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jgbddn$hjs$11@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
:
: > "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
: > news:52592dfd07dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: > : In article <jg3h6u$a7g$2@dont-email.me>,
: > : Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : > : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
: > suitable
: > : > for final
: > : > : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: > : > fundamentals
: > : > : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: > : > :
: > :
: > : > Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
: > breaking
: > : > the regs!
: > :
: > : You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't
understand
: > the basics.
: > :
:
: > So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance
between a
: > BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?
:
: I was referring to the difference between a radial circuit and
a spur.
: Which obviously escapes you.

There is no difference in the hardware, only the circuit
protection, as you would know if you had ever actually worked on
either or both radial and ring circuits, Plowman you are coming
over as someone like that idiot "Drivel" from the uk.d-i-y group,
someone who read the regs but has never done any practical.

:
: You can have unlimited sockets on a spur from a ring - provided
that spur
: is protected by an FCU.
:

Duh, then it is no longer a spur, and thus totally different to
what we are discussing!

 

[Jerry]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:qZudnVHjyYvV1rTSnZ2dnUVZ8jmdnZ2d@bt.com...

<snip>
: It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead
short.
: It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: (hopefully)correct fuse.

But would it be enough is the plugs fuse had been bridged out and
thus fused at what ever the breaker is rated at on the panel (in
the case of UK ring circuits that is 30 amps)? Just because an
appliance comes pre-fitted with a plug and the correct fuse it
doesn't mean that it will remain so though out the life of the
device.

<snip>
: Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity
installations is
: pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)
:

At most Ron that is a side show, what Plowman has taken exception
to is the UK regs that allow for radial circuits, and the dangers
or otherwise of both UK spec radial and ring circuits.