Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[JW]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 11:21:57 +0000 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk>
wrote in Message id: <hYNgRxDVN8KPFwz3@jasper.org.uk>:

In article <efgni79a50t3ihoaftfoh3m5se9hf94bo6@4ax.com>, JW
none@dev.null> writes

Ah, So *now* it doesn't matter how ugly it is.
Which was my point exactly.

But you're the tit that thought we put them on open view in our living
rooms.

Now and again one has to apply the Ruler of Reason to the Knuckles of
Stupidity. I never said you did. I only stated that at *we* weren't stupid
enough to put them in our living rooms. If you thought I was implying that
*you* were, perhaps the shoe fits after all.

Heh.

Doh.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you've flip-flopped on the issue. Doesn't matter
what the fuck it looks like if it's not out in the open living space.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <4tini79sk4got6e7uh0pqo5i0cjp29jjm7@4ax.com>, JW
<none@dev.null> writes

Anyway, I'm glad to see you've flip-flopped on the issue. Doesn't matter
what the fuck it looks like if it's not out in the open living space.

No idea what 'flip flopping' you're boring on about, but if you're
unable to understand my posts, I suggest you take some classes in
remedial English.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4tini79sk4got6e7uh0pqo5i0cjp29jjm7@4ax.com>,
JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

Now and again one has to apply the Ruler of Reason to the Knuckles of
Stupidity. I never said you did. I only stated that at *we* weren't
stupid enough to put them in our living rooms. If you thought I was
implying that *you* were, perhaps the shoe fits after all.

Heh.

Doh.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you've flip-flopped on the issue. Doesn't matter
what the fuck it looks like if it's not out in the open living space.

I've seen US TV shows where they are in a public space in an apartment
block. Is this the norm?

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:12:30 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've seen US TV shows where they are in a public space in an apartment
block. Is this the norm?

I wouldn't go there. SWMBO'd town house in St Albans had the meter
and CU in the bin cupboard outside the front door. Simple through
door latch gave access to anybody. All the same type houses on the
estate were the same, I don't think any had even so much as a hasp
and padlock on the cupboard door...

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9p0goiFn3nU1@mid.individual.net...

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net>
wrote:

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9p0goiFn3nU1@mid.individual.net...
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

d

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:dPGfkjC4l7KPFwF9@jasper.org.uk...

In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Arny Krueger
arnyk@cocmast.net> writes

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so many
circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Yes, it'll feed the entire building.

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Note the wiring includes the
supplier's meter, unlike those ugly external meters used in North
America. The meter is read remotely.

Remotely read meters have been in the US for a long time, but there is an
immense backlog of old work. Ours was converted in the past few years. It's
still large, ugly and outside, by the side door.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid and
early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here in
Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has a
number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate pole
transformer for just that phase. The electric company can't figure out how
to size that transformer, and it fails about every 5 years.

As another poster said, this is a 3-phase supply. Notice how thin the
main incomer is, yet that'll be supplying 100A per phase.

Yes, the salutary effects of higher voltages on conductor size are very
apparent. U.S. standards for wiring are getting to be excessively expensive
to implement. Aluminum was tried and rejected for general house wiring, but
is being used for distribution up to the breaker box and for large loads
downstream of it.

You have to remember that when most of our standards were developed and
widely implemented, copper was a cheap byproduct of mining silver. ;-)

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <9rKdnW68wta1e7bSnZ2dnUVZ5uidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Arny Krueger
<arnyk@cocmast.net> writes

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Sure doesn't, but remember much of the UK housing stock is old and
predates electricity. My house still has the lead pipes embedded in the
walls which were used to feed gas lighting, and much of the old lead-
sheathed power cables (copper cores wrapped in waxed paper then sheated
in a lead outer). No longer in use, thankfully.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along.

On the contrary, the cost of the war meant that little money was
available to improve the existing housing stock and little new was
built. What was built were cheap prefab houses intended to be
temporary. Indeed, some of those survive and are now "listed", which
means they are protected from inappropriate modification and/or
demolition.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

Germany has done very well since the war - a lot of money was ploughed
into the country to rebuild. Some would say too much. American and
European money.

Yes, the salutary effects of higher voltages on conductor size are very
apparent. U.S. standards for wiring are getting to be excessively expensive
to implement.

the rocketing price of copper certainly doesn't help.

Aluminum was tried and rejected for general house wiring

no wonder when you see photos like these:

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/wirefire.htm

I think, but am not sure, that it was briefly tried in the UK but not
many installations were carried out before it was withdrawn.

Some older phone infrastructural wiring in aluminium is still in use
(mainly in trunk cables) and those are known to severely degrade ADSL
sync speeds.

You have to remember that when most of our standards were developed and
widely implemented, copper was a cheap byproduct of mining silver. ;-)

Boy, have tomes changed ;-)

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4f2be4a0.2870293@news.eternal-september.org...

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district?

It is done as needed. In a residential neighborhood there may be several
transformers per block. There is a transformer in my back yard and I can
see the next one maybe 6-8 houses (on my side) down.

It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling.

240v has been widely avaiilable here since before WW2.

My expectations are that since power use is likely to decrease, and the
power drain of household equipment of a kind is generally decreasing,
there's no push for more 220 volt usage in homes.

220 volt portable houshold appliances are rare. Just a random thought but
the advent of 90-250 volt wall warts and other stuff with similar switchmode
power supplies are opening the door to future implementation of more 220
volt house wiring.

The most recent *big* user of 240 volt power was air conditioning, but
almost all of that equipment that is going to exist has probably already
been isntalled, except of course new homes. I don't expect a lot of new
homes to be built for many years.

It really is too low for even distribution within a house.

I would say that its biggest problem is that 12 guage copper wire is getting
to be pretty expensive.

I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Historical artifacts. I just rewired part of my daughter's ca. 1955 house
and all I can say is that we added a ton of new circuits and I saw many
strange things that we made go away.

Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave, and
toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"J G Miller" <miller@yoyRG> wrote in message
news:jggpsv$6pp$3@dont-email.me...

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 08:50:22h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

here to my house here in Grosse Pointe

Is this it?

http://upload.wikimedia.ORG/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/GrossePointeMansion.jpg

From the style of many of the houses in Grosse Pointe, one might
think one was back in a very salubrious part of England.

Looks to me like the house down the street... ;-)

Actually, quite a ways down a different street maybe a mile or two away, and
probably within a block or two of Lake St Clair. It looks familiar but not
all that exceptional.

I live over a mile from the lake.

The Grosse Pointes are definitely colonial-themed. My house is most
definitely not. The rules for my subdivision were written after my house
was built, and contain language that seems intended to avoid a house like it
ever being built there again.

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

Type "grosse kercheval henry" into Google Maps and take the first option
offered to see a typical retail area. Google Maps street level view allows
you to simulate walking south down Kercheval street. for a better look.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:lLMRFVEQw+KPFwyi@jasper.org.uk...

In article <9rKdnW68wta1e7bSnZ2dnUVZ5uidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Arny Krueger
arnyk@cocmast.net> writes

It doesn't belong in a closet for a rented room!

Sure doesn't, but remember much of the UK housing stock is old and
predates electricity. My house still has the lead pipes embedded in the
walls which were used to feed gas lighting, and much of the old lead-
sheathed power cables (copper cores wrapped in waxed paper then sheated
in a lead outer). No longer in use, thankfully.

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along.

On the contrary, the cost of the war meant that little money was
available to improve the existing housing stock and little new was
built. What was built were cheap prefab houses intended to be
temporary. Indeed, some of those survive and are now "listed", which
means they are protected from inappropriate modification and/or
demolition.

I have not spent a lot of time in the UK, and not in residential areas. I
rely on what I am told.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany
looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after* WW2. We had
416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

Germany has done very well since the war - a lot of money was ploughed
into the country to rebuild. Some would say too much. American and
European money.

German products are well-respected and still widely sold in the US.

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:40:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net>
wrote:

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

So many cables on those poles. What on earth are they all?

That really isn't pretty.

d

 

[J G Miller]

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012 at 13:46:53h +0000, Don Pearce asked:

Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines?

The 240 V will come most probably from the use of two 120 V lines
which are 180 degrees out of phase.

(How come it is 120 V rather than 110 V? Higher rural voltage maybe?)

 

[J G Miller]

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 08:50:22h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

here to my house here in Grosse Pointe

Is this it?

<http://upload.wikimedia.ORG/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/GrossePointeMansion.jpg>

From the style of many of the houses in Grosse Pointe, one might
think one was back in a very salubrious part of England.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <525bc79f6edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <CMSdnd9dedQfc7bSnZ2dnUVZ5r6dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

About the same as if we used lighting spec cable for our sockets. Not
a great plan, I'd say.

d

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <MpudnU_xP60ibrbSnZ2dnUVZ5sydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Arny Krueger
<arnyk@cocmast.net> writes

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

Not surprised, no. Aldi and their very similar competitor Lidl have
many stores in the UK. I think some of the food is of better quality
and cheaper than the established British supermarket chains (Tesco,
Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons). Meat particularly is good.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <525bc56a7edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

The pole transformers aren't pretty either, though produce quite
spectacular pyrotechnics when they fail, which seems to happen more
often than it should.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <nagBBuEh8$KPFwiZ@jasper.org.uk>, Mike Tomlinson
<mike@jasper.org.uk> writes

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

Plus the cores are different colours, of course, white and black instead
of blue and brown. Black is hot (=live)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Romex_cable.agr.jpg

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <9rKdnW68wta1e7bSnZ2dnUVZ5uidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:

We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid
and early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still
in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after*
WW2. We had 416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here
in Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has
a number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate
pole transformer for just that phase.

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

--
*You! Off my planet!

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.