Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Michael A. Terrell]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ron wrote:

On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Jerry wrote

Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.

Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired
group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm
fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around
with them.

Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell,
some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old
van to get to the gig.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Andy Champ]

On 30/01/2012 21:32, Trevor Wilson wrote:

On 1/31/2012 8:14 AM, UnsteadyKen wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote...

I would posit that, when driving an automobile with a manual
gearbox, using one's right hand to control the wheel (assuming one is
right handed), with the other hand using the gear change, is a better
idea.

I'm right handed and learnt to drive in Germany and found that using
the right hand to manipulate the gear lever and handbrake felt natural
and controlled. It seemed awkward when I first drove in the UK and it
took a while to adjust.


**I'm sure that would be the case. I learned to drive in Australia,
using a 'three on the tree' and later a four speed, floor mounted manual
gearbox. I now drive a five speed manual gearbox car. I've driven auto
gearbox cars in the US and elsewhere. I reckon that trying to drive a
manual gearbox in the US would be a difficult adjustment to make, though
using an auto box was easy enough.

I've driven manual gearbox cars on mainland Europe (LHD) and I learned
in RHD England. No real problems - except the Renault electronic
handbrake, which was <censored>. Perhaps a few thousand auto-box miles
in the US first helped.

Andy

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <R5SdnRvx-5l5grXSnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron
<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> writes:

On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:
"Ron"<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:WfGdnXnotPmZkbXSnZ2dnUVZ8s6dnZ2d@bt.com...
On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
"Jerry"<mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote


Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.


Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

David.


I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired
group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm
fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
[]

I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in
BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar
are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's
plug).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What would be unusual would be if there weren't any coincidences at all for
several days in a row. Andy Roberts (UMRAt), 23rd. October 1998.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <kLqdnY-xlePcTLrSnZ2dnUVZ7oadnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron
<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> writes:
[]

Incidentally, I was at a presentation about Barbados the other day, and
was told that it's not possible to hire a car in Barbados due to the
previous amount of traffic accidents involving hire cars. They drive on
the left, and the majority of tourists are American and can't get used
to driving on that side. I myself prefer to drive down the middle

You remind me of a comment made by Raymond Baxter on Top Gear, back when
it was a motoring programme: he described some car as being "for the
middle-of-the-road driver", without realising what he'd said. (No, it
wasn't a Chieftain tank.)

Ron
--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What would be unusual would be if there weren't any coincidences at all for
several days in a row. Andy Roberts (UMRAt), 23rd. October 1998.

 

[Max Demian]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9oqfn7Fd5pU1@mid.individual.net...

"Jerry" <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
and any other round bar) -

Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut
the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly
the right size hanging around the house? not many.

For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged
that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass
fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of
choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs,
plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've
only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse
in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs
of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting
screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers
at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to
start looking for bits of metal that will fit!

How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and
lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the
purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.)

--
Max Demian

 

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.


Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Fuck off Yank. Patronising bastards aren't you?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <9or98nFp91U1@mid.individual.net>,
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and
lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard
the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the
flex.)

As indeed it is. If the device (like a radio) needs fuse protection within
itself, it should have its own fuse. Exactly as it would have when fed
from an unfused plug.

I suspect if starting with a clean sheet now far more sophisticated
circuit breakers etc are affordable, things might be different.

--
*Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[David Looser]

"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote

How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and
lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard
the purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the
flex.)

Its enough to get the item a "fail", though my solution is to change the
fuse, not withdraw the item from sale as I do with the real horrors. The
longer that time passes since the law that required new items to have
factory-fitted plugs the fewer examples of this I see.

David.

 

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sDsrdUSkaGKPFwyF@soft255.demon.co.uk...

In message <R5SdnRvx-5l5grXSnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron
ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> writes:
On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:
"Ron"<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:WfGdnXnotPmZkbXSnZ2dnUVZ8s6dnZ2d@bt.com...
On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
"Jerry"<mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote


Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium
foil.


Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have
you
come across it?

David.


I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group
gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses
started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
[]
I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in
BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar
are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's
plug).
--

Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's assertion that
screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of fuses in BS1361
plugs. As you say equipment fuses are far more varied in terms of size,
rating and rupture characteristic. They also tend to be a lot more expensive
than the readily available BS1362 fuse.

BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused
plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to
the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse had a threaded
stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the
live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take on the same design
brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we had gone with that
design it would have been much harder to bypass the fuse!

David.

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into
the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva
fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Can't be arsed to read the regs of a forgien country, we have enough
of our own. You are over there and presumably know them so how many
breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US?

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:52592d9133dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jg3h6t$a7g$1@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker
if
: > you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: > that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal
1amp
: > fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: > run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
:
: Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you
know
: nothing about.
:

Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking about
your own failing all the time, if you really do think that you
can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5259a82fcbdave@davenoise.co.uk...

<snip>
:
: You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so
much more
: difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
:

Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden, unless one is
able to move one side of the existing ring to the new socket, as
Pet would know if he had actually done any real world wiring jobs
rather than simply quoting from the "Idiots Guide to the 17th
edition" all the time...

 

[Jerry]

"recursor" <recursor@hackthisonetel.com> wrote in message
news:N9KdnRDqULchQbjSnZ2dnUVZ8qmdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
: On 29/01/2012 20:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
: > In message <52592d9133dave@davenoise.co.uk>, "Dave Plowman
(News)"
: > <dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes:
: >> In article <jg3h6t$a7g$1@dont-email.me>,
: >> Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: >>> Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp
breaker if
: >>> you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: >>> that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have
internal 1amp
: >>> fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: >>> run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
: >>
: >> Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you know
: >> nothing about.
: >>
: > Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so
that they do not
: > have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement
that mains leads (in
: > US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
absolutely necessary is
: > valid. Especially if they're of the sort that has a connector
at both ends: if
: > there's a chance that they might be used for an appliance
that draws more, then
: > it is unwise to use low-current wire/cable for them.
: >
: > (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and
others: I live in UK,
: > but still find ring mains odd.)
:
: Indeed, inherently unsafe some would say:-
:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit#Fault_conditions_are_not_apparent_when_in_use


Indeed, indeed, and one can't help but notice the melee mouthed
solutions some twit has added to that table of horror - and as
for over heating of a radial circuit due to a loose connection,
sorry twit but the same risks apply to rings - more so as they
are more heavily loaded by design.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5259a91383dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <HpfBnYNnCbJPFw8T@soft255.demon.co.uk>,
: J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: > >Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you know
: > >nothing about.
: > >
: > Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so
that they do
: > not have great mechanical strength.
:
: Where will you find an appliance sold fitted with 1A flex and a
13 amp
: plug?

Perhaps not 1amp but 3amp is common. But heck were back to
Plowman believing that he can run his 3Kw(+) electric cooker off
such leads as commonly fitted to table lamps...

:
: > Therefore Jerry's statement that
: > mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher
rating than
: > absolutely necessary is valid.
:
: All appliances now sold in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) are
capable of
: blowing a 13 amp fuse in event of a fault on the line chord.

Assuming that the BS1363 plug is actually fitted with a fuse and
not a twist of wire, a lump of metal bar or the shank of a screw
or bolt... As I keep saying, and Plowman keeps refusing to
address, the sort of bodge (by a end-user who might not
understand the risks), that is not possible -or at least a dammed
sight more difficult to do- with radial circuits were the lead is
protected at the panel rather than plug.

:
: > Especially if they're of the sort that
: > has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they
might be
: > used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to
use
: > low-current wire/cable for them.
:
: Same with extensions etc sold in the UK.
:
: > (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and
others: I
: > live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
:
: I can understand this, as practice is what matters. Diversity
loading.
: Not some theoretical maybe as Jerry insist on bringing up -
even although
: it has been explained to him time and time again.

Err, what frecking cheek, Plowman is the one who keeps quoting
the theory, living in that perfect world were idiots are banned.
As for "Diversity" that in it's self is a bodge, it actually
acknowledges that a ring can be overloaded and thus one has to
guess to circuit loading the real world might bring and then if
needs be increase the number of ring circuits.

:
: Final ring circuits are for domestic premises only. For
workshops or
: offices where you have known fixed loads you'd stick to
radials. As you'd

Wrong, ring circuits are acceptable in offices and workshops but
the regs limit the total number of outlets on each ring.

: do for fixed heating in a domestic scenario.
:

Not just for heating, the 17th edition [1] has likely increased
the use of radials being used for freezers, fridges and other
circuits/loads were it is unwise to allow unmonitored
disconnections due to the RCD being tripped due to faults
elsewhere or even 'non faults'... But then, unlike Plowman, I
have always been in favour of supplying such appliances via
dedicated radials, ho-hum, could the worm be turning, could
people like Plowman be eating their own archived words come the
18th edition?!

[1] for those outside the UK, that refers to the current UK
wiring regs

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:52592dea9edave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jg3h6t$a7g$1@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it
a
: > little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
: > unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
: > silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws,
bolts
: > and any other round bar)
:
: Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more
than 13
: amps from a socket anyway?

I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do so,
but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
actually defending your beloved ring circuits...

:
: Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably
did just
: that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.

I seem to remember that you used to make TV programmes...

: Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.
:

You really are a stupid troll, understanding the risks is not the
same as practicing such risks, by your logic all child protection
officers are child abusers!

 

[Ron]

On 31/01/2012 20:47, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:

Ron wrote:

David Looser wrote:

Jerry wrote

Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium foil.

Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have you
come across it?

I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired
group gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm
fuses started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
It still amazes me that most musicians don't carry spare fuses around
with them.


Waste money on spare parts, and not have cash for their drugs? Hell,
some of them can't even afford to put enough gas in their beat up old
van to get to the gig.


Ah, you're talking about the good old days...

Ron

 

[Ron]

On 01/02/2012 09:04, David Looser wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver (John)"<G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sDsrdUSkaGKPFwyF@soft255.demon.co.uk...
In message<R5SdnRvx-5l5grXSnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron
ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> writes:
On 31/01/2012 15:58, David Looser wrote:
"Ron"<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:WfGdnXnotPmZkbXSnZ2dnUVZ8s6dnZ2d@bt.com...
On 31/01/2012 15:29, David Looser wrote:
"Jerry"<mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote


Far more common to find the existing blown fuse wrapped in aluminium
foil.


Well in some 2000-odd PAT tests I've never met that one, how often have
you
come across it?

David.


I used to see it a couple or three times a year back when I repaired group
gear, often on HT fuses in valve amplifiers, and back when 20mm fuses
started to become common in equipment, but not common in toolboxes.
[]
I think David was specifically talking about the BS1362 fuses found in
BS1363 plugs. The special (and varied) fuses in the HT amp.s and similar
are less likely to match anything to hand (i. e. another appliance's
plug).
--

Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's assertion that
screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of fuses in BS1361
plugs. As you say equipment fuses are far more varied in terms of size,
rating and rupture characteristic. They also tend to be a lot more expensive
than the readily available BS1362 fuse.

BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused
plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to
the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse had a threaded
stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the plug to form the
live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take on the same design
brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we had gone with that
design it would have been much harder to bypass the fuse!

David.


Yes, and it was bloody lethal!

Ron

 

[Ron]

On 31/01/2012 22:45, Max Demian wrote:

"David Looser"<david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9oqfn7Fd5pU1@mid.individual.net...
"Jerry"<mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it a
little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws, bolts
and any other round bar) -

Well the BS1362 fuse certainly isn't the same shape as any screw, since
screws taper to a point, nor is it the shape of any bolt, unless you cut
the head off the bolt. As for round bar, well it would have to be the same
diameter and length, how many people have bits of round bar just exactly
the right size hanging around the house? not many.

For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains electrical item
submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in the village
where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes so damaged
that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with a brass
fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended using a bit of
choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs, mis-wired plugs,
plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly used etc. But I've
only ever had one example of a plug with anything other than a BS1362 fuse
in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire wrapped round the prongs
of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea that people are putting
screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into plugs in any significant numbers
at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a fuse from another appliance than to
start looking for bits of metal that will fit!

How about 13A plug fuses for low wattage appliances such as radios and
lamps? Or wouldn't you regard that as a fault? (I wouldn't, as I regard the
purpose of a plug fuse to blow in the event of a dead short in the flex.)

The UK '13amp' plug top accepts fuses rated to suit the appliance. 13

amps is the maximum.

Ron

 

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9oqfn7Fd5pU1@mid.individual.net...

<snip>
: [because I have never seen such faults]
: I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or
bits of metal
: rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much
easier to
: nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for
bits of metal
: that will fit!
:

As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.

By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not) have
never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be any
risk of electrocution?