Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad a

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l70vg2$lgf$6@speranza.aioe.org...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing
company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.

This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally):
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=816

Nobody will sell them to him.
Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.

So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.

I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer
since I don't.

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kg3yajf

(Hey, I finally remembered to copy the proper link. I know, what a moron...)

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l71def$h5p$9@news.albasani.net...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:53:35 -0500, tm wrote:

This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit

Oh! That would make a huge difference since the AC transformer
is out of commission at the moment (waiting for the replacement
to arrive).

Thanks for that helpful advice!

Maybe I should only test it with the AC transformer in place?

Just bump it with the 12 volts from the battery. That will pull in the relay
and latch the output. When the voltage falls below the 9 volt limit, the
relay will drop out and disconnect the battery completely.

Just for the fun of it when you go the RS, you might pick up an in line fuse
(3 amp or so) and put it in the red battery lead. that will keep the fire
from starting. Get yourself a supply of fuses just in case. I don't see
any fuses on the boards at all.

When you get this working, next thing to do is disconnect all the other
panels from the main unit. Tag all the wires so you know where they go. That
way, you can narrow down any power issues to just the main board.

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l6r0u4$od1$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

The bottom three terminals with the Green, Red, and red and black wires are
the power to your external panels. Normally, the green is a data line, the
black should be a negative 12 volt line and the red should be +12 volts. If
someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit to the power
supply and battery. You might want to go through all the mess and clean it
up. A fault there could also explain the transformer failure.

 

[NightcrawlerŽ]

"doug" <vssdoug@gmail.com> wrote in message news:l718vf$6a2$1@dont-email.me...

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l717fs$h5p$2@news.albasani.net...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, NightcrawlerŽ wrote:

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/11061237796_150cc3544f_o.gif


Before you start pratting around checking diodes, capacitors and the like you should disconnect all the external wiring to the
circuit board and power the board up on its own to verify that the field wiring or expansion modules are not the cause of the
problem

Doug

Great idea, Doug. After he removes the old system, and installs the new one, his
pet project on the side will be getting the old system working.

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l6rgbo$sbe$2@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
if any track has been damaged.

tm

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/25/2013 6:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

Easy pal, it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious. I mean things you've done for so many
years, that you do them without thinking. I'll play a hunch on gear
that's broken because I've seen so many failures of the same type or
similar equipment for many years. I often find problems using just my
eyes and my nose. I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying
glass to look to look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.
I often do a wiggle test on vertically mounted components like the
filter capacitors to check for broken solder joints on a circuit board
then I often twist the board when it's powered up to check it for bad or
intermittent connections. It's often a big mistake to assume another
fellow has done tests that I would do without thinking about it. ^_^

TDD

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l6r5lv$4a2$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?

It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives the
relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the transistor.
The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor to the base of
the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x volts, the zener will
conduct and turn on the transistor that will in turn operate the relay. The
relay will make the connection from the red wire to the battery (W1) to the
J2 terminal marked power. It will supply voltage to the alarm panel until
the battery voltage drops below the zener diode conduction point.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail light
bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.


tm

 

[Tony Hwang]

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:07:16 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What if the new board blows up when replaced?

That's why I only want to spend the $104 to replace it.
It *does* have overload circuit protection besides.

Are you planning to protect it some how from that occurring?

I've done plenty of smoke tests in my life.
This will be one of them.

BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?
Can you tell which lead is the cathode or anode?

Heh heh ... here is a board I built many years ago to test
impedence (j omega stuff). I wired a diode to house current!
You'll notice the diodes. Particularly, you'll notice that the
nichrome wire resistor has the same impedance as the the capacitor.
(I couldn't find an inductor of a large enough size.)
FRONT: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11061412564_d241b67f1e_o.gif
BACK: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/11061387306_4b928f65c1_o.gif

Also notice this circuit, where I used 555 timers (I think that's what
I used), way back in the 80's, to measure capacitance and resistance
simply by counting the flash rate ...
FRONT: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7362/11061411704_cf3e84efa3_o.gif
BACK: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/11061410864_5dfa50a070_o.gif

I did those circuits in the early 80's but, of course I know
about the shape of the diode curve and which is the anode and
which is the cathode.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03256.png

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

Hi,
You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Danny D'Amico wrote:

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

There is a hell of a lot that you don't know. None of these give you
accurate information about a capacitor.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:29:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't

I love the term "key board professionals"!

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

> I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/25/2013 7:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't
see.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/26/2013 7:18 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/26/2013 8:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

I'm also nearsighted. Zenni Optical has been kind
enough to provide me inexpensive eye glasses. I've
got daily wear glasses. With some creative tweaks
of the Rx, I've also gotten reading glasses which
are nice for reading, or for working on the
soldering, grinder, etc. Good to have some
plastic in front of my eyes.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

 

[Oren]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

AMEN!

 

[Oren]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

Sometimes things are right in front of your face but you can't see it.
The committee in my head gets in the dang way

 

[Tony Hwang]

Oren wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...

the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

Sometimes things are right in front of your face but you can't see it.
The committee in my head gets in the dang way

 

[tm]

"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:m16lu.14825$uW4.10642@fx30.iad...

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro processor
chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...

It really isn't necessary to be an asshole here. The OP has done a good job
considering his lack of electronics knowledge and very limited test
equipment. And no schematics! The "chip" has all the markings sanded off. So
tell us all, what it the part number of the processor?

tm

 

[Tony Hwang]

tm wrote:

"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:m16lu.14825$uW4.10642@fx30.iad...
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain
and hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...



It really isn't necessary to be an asshole here. The OP has done a good
job considering his lack of electronics knowledge and very limited test
equipment. And no schematics! The "chip" has all the markings sanded
off. So tell us all, what it the part number of the processor?

tm

Hmmm.
He is not even following up on quite a few good suggestions presented
here, I lost interest trying to help. I am not a baby sitter, I am not a
spoon feeder, all I can is giving pointers, suggestions and tips.

If he really want to tackle the problem, the board has to be removed to
work bench and go through it step by step. Wish him all the luck.

 

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:59:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
<cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 11/26/2013 8:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

I'm also nearsighted. Zenni Optical has been kind
enough to provide me inexpensive eye glasses. I've
got daily wear glasses. With some creative tweaks
of the Rx, I've also gotten reading glasses which
are nice for reading, or for working on the
soldering, grinder, etc. Good to have some
plastic in front of my eyes.

Don't rely on eyeglasses as safety devices. I just had a pair break.
About 25% of a lens broke off, leaving a nice sharp point and two
sharp edges on both pieces. Fortunately the glasses went the other
way and I didn't get cut. The optometrist said "that can't happen",
but it did. They replaced them without an issue, though.