Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad a

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:23:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.

That is the most direct test I could have run, so, following your advice,
I took the power and ground leads coming out of the alarm system board
and plugged them directly into the battery, which was at 13.5 volts.

The current draw was 98 ma.

But the only thing that happened was the alarm system made a single
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep that lasted the entire
time that the battery was connected.

I tried this, multiple times, for no longer than the time it took to
snap this picture though, as I didn't want to ruin anything further.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:10:37 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

I'm surprised you knew *where* the transformer leads entered the board,
because I didn't say, so, but I see what you're talking about.

Also, I'm surprised you knew that was a bridge rectifier, because, well,
because I didn't - but - looking at it from the side, I can see four
uninsulated legs, which indicate it has four leads, one of which is
marked "+".

Here is the same picture, but, with a few things marked that I know of
(including the electrolytic capacitor I think you're talking about):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/11018768016_8962578375_o.png

I looked and touched and that cap seems OK visually; but, of course,
it's probably 20 years old...

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...

 

[RTS]

Dud, it looks to me like you got a bad module..
the Cap is bad just to look at, and since you need the relay to close to
pass the voltage to the terminals, anything in that hold-in circuit that’s
bad will disable that..
discard the module, if you still need a low voltage disconnect feature,
try
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-965-low-battery-cutoff-and-master-power-switch
the Elk 965 will disconnect the power when voltage drops below its threshold
...

rts

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news:l6r5lv$4a2$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

> What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

 

[Tony Hwang]

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?

Hi,
First of all, did you check the battery by hooking up a 12V automotive
bulb to really see it is holding good charge at 12V? Secondly remove one
leg of diodes and check them, one may be Zener type. do the same with
capacitor. Remove any two legs off the circuit and check that
transistor. The other K1 is a relay, you can check it same way.
Then go to next step which you are trying to do now. First thing first.
If you can find a URL for schematic, it'll be lot easier to TS.

No power supply on your work bench? If so you can use it as well.
I have a lab. grade power supply with several commonly used voltage o/p.
Very handy item to have.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 1:59 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?

"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.
I haven't worked exclusively in the alarm industry for many years but I
would get into alarms from time to time. Your alarm system is at least
21 years old. The date code on the small round bridge rectifier on the
circuit board looks like it was manufactured in 1992. ^_^

TDD

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 1:07 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11013129635_251c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/11013119175_dfa5301efd_o.gif

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

TDD

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:11:27 -0800, doug wrote:

> I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Any recommendations, given my goal would be to use all the existing
equipment except the board itself and the power supply?

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 3:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, NightcrawlerŽ wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

TDD

 

[doug]

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...

You could try www.tech-man.com for a used replacement board, bearing in mind
that any used replacement board is likely to be close to the same age as
yours.

I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Doug

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?

It's more likely that there were problems, and the situation wouldn't
let it start working again.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 05:59:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

I think you're screwed. But I like the meter. I have the same one,
going on 30 years now.

Yeah. I've blown the 'bar' inside for the 10A fuse (my fault) and,
I've had to replace the disc-shaped battery once (or twice?) but
mine has to be from the early or mid 80s and it's still going
strong.

It's strange that all three things are bad:
1. The power transformer secondary blew open
2. The battery-tender capacitor overheated
3. The main circuit board isn't working

I wonder what my options are ...

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

If you can verify that the board has proper power on it from
a battery and it's still not working, I'd say it's time to buy
a new panel. You can get them for $150 or so.

That's probably what I'm going to have to do.

Meanwhile, ELK called me back and explained the "limited" part
of the "lifetime warranty" on the AC transformer. The service
technician said mine has a PTC fuse in the secondary.

He said ELK will replace it for free as long as it was used
within the specifications of the device, e.g., in an approved
alarm system (which it was).

They told me I could send it to them, or, I could contact these
local "trade distributors" to see if they would work with a
homeowner:
1. Home Tech Solution 408-257-4406
2. Custom Electronics Supply 408-452-8300
3. http://smarthome.com 800-762-7846

So, at the very least, I'll get the transformer replaced,
under warranty, by one of those four. Also, I'll ask all of
them how much they sell the board I need.

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:03:16 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
alarm panel.

Replacing the alarm panel is fine by me, but, I spoke to someone
at Bosch who said that the "frequencies are different" for each
manufacturer.

Is that true?

Seems to me that an alarm system as a simple job. If the switch
is open, ring the alarm.

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

Is it true that only a Bosch/Radionics panel will work with
Bosch/Radionics controllers and Bosch/Radionics switches
and motion and smoke detectors?

 

[doug]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l6vtsq$lnu$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

Doug

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs!

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Normally I don't throw parts at a problem.

But,
1. The transformer is clearly bad (open secondary).
So I have one on order and another coming in via warranty repair.
But, this is not mandatory for operation anyway.

2. The battery protection board clearly has a capacitor that has
melted leads on the underside. What I plan on doing there is
replacing the capacitor; but this is not an important board
for operation either.

3. When I put 12VDC to the main circuit board, it beeps a long
beep, and nothing else happens.

So, what does that tell me?

It *could* be that the board simply needs to be "reset", so, I'll
read all the manuals I found here:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Or, it could be that the battery is bad. So, I'll charge the battery
and test it under load, to see if that's the problem (but I don't
think it is simply because the board is only drawing 100ma at 12VDC).

Or, it could be that the D2212B circuit board is bad. If that's the
case, I'll try to troubleshoot it by testing where the power goes
when I plug in the battery.

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

Bosch sells the board to ADI or to Anixer, who then sells it to a
pass-through contractor who sells it to me.

If the board doesn't work, then I'd be surprised; but it would then
be time to replace the entire shebang.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:57:04 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

I'm ok with simply replacing the Bosch/Radionics D2212BLT board
(where the LT simply means the board kit came without the transformer).

Bosch has plenty in stock, but they won't sell them to me.
ADI & Anixer will only sell them to a contractor.

I just had a long conversation with the guys at http://obsoleteradionics.com
who will try to get the board for me (they say it's the most common
board out there).

Jeeesuz. Bosch has this market locked up tight!