Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad a

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/26/2013 12:47 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

TDD

 

[Oren]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas
<the-daring-dufas@stinky-finger.net> wrote:

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!




Easy pal, it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

....after that, we need to redneck it a bit, hold your tongue out and
adjust it just right...check if fer bein' cock-eyed or wampus-kitty

 

[Oren]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:29:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon
<cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote:

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't
see.

Speak for yourself...will ya...there!
--
"People who worry about crocodiles are smart!" -Joe Machi

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.

This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business back
in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the company,
unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000 a year with them.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary
b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:49:01 -0500, krw wrote:

Buy a system from someone else, if you don't like the way
they do business.

For two reasons, that is exactly what I would do were I to build
a system of my own, from assembled parts.

1. You can't get the Bosch parts anyway, so, nobody can build their
own system out of Bosch parts, and,

2. Even if I could get Bosch parts, I wouldn't build a system out
of restricted parts, simply because it would be difficult to
expand and repair in the future.

However, when I asked today at a few intrusion alarm places, they
told me that the "reason" Bosch is restrictive is to prevent
intelligent burglaries.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:50:39 -0500, tm wrote:

It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives the
relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the transistor.
The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor to the base of
the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x volts, the zener will
conduct and turn on the transistor that will in turn operate the relay. The
relay will make the connection from the red wire to the battery (W1) to the
J2 terminal marked power. It will supply voltage to the alarm panel until
the battery voltage drops below the zener diode conduction point.

Hi tm,

That was a FANTASTIC explanation!
You're one of the reasons why the USENET is so great!
Thank you very much for that detailed explanation.

I picked up an electrolytic cap, and I will replace it, and test the
battery-protection circuit out.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail light
bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.

It failed this loaded test. So, now I know I have a bad battery and a
bad transformer.

Luckily, the *new* 16.5VAC transformer arrived.

It sure tested funny:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

a) Secondary output = 20VAC
b) One side to ground = 3.5 Volts
c) The other side to ground = 1 Volt

Anyway, the moment I plugged that transformer in, the battery charging
circuit came to life at 13.6 Volts:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

And, the alarm system control panel powered up & beeped (almost) normally:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202843_a0e09daa9a_o.gif

With the battery in, or out, it gave the following error:
*ALL ON, SYSTEM TROUBLE*
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/11078125064_68d907e787_o.gif

And, when I tried to read the error, it merely said:
*CALL FOR SERVICE*
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/11078125174_95cb163704_o.gif

I'm not sure how to get the actual service problem, but, I am pretty
sure it's the battery now that the new transformer is in place.

So, I'll google for a good source of batteries online.
(Any suggestions or are they all essentially the same?)

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:16:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

Now that the alarm system is (almost) fixed, I can spend the effort
to look more closely at this D135A battery protection circuit.
resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf
resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Installation_Guide_enUS_2548185099.pdf

Even though nobody will tell you a price, I found this Bosch price list
on the web:
http://www.industry.usa.siemens.com/topics/us/en/btus/CommonwealthMA/Documents/bosch-intrusion-ifas-msrp-price-list-3-1-13.xlsx

The D135A retails for $22.56 according to that spreadsheet.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> There is a hell of a lot that you don't know.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

Hi Tony,
The new power transformer solved (almost) all the problems!

As soon as it arrived, I tested its output voltage (20 VAC),
which within the expected range:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Even so, the moment I plugged in the power transformer,
the D2212B circuit and the control panels came to life.
There is 13.6V at the battery terminals without the battery plugged in.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

I think, in the end, the only things that were bad were:
1. The transformer secondary blew out
2. The D135A capacitor seems to have been overheated
3. The battery is apparently bad

Luckily, all those are easy to fix!

I'm not sure *how* to read what the control panel is trying to
tell me since it only says "Call for Service", but, I'm pretty
sure it's trying to tell me the (bad) battery isn't connected.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/11078125064_68d907e787_o.gif
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/11078125174_95cb163704_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 12:36:59 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

If he really want to tackle the problem, the board has to be removed to
work bench and go through it step by step. Wish him all the luck

Luckily, all it (mostly) needed was a new power transformer!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:16:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

Since the D135A is to protect the battery, I assumed it's not
actually *required* for operation.

So, I concentrated first, and foremost on replacing the AC power
supply.

Luckily, that worked!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202843_a0e09daa9a_o.gif

Sort of ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/11078125064_68d907e787_o.gif

My next step is to replace the battery.

If I were a repair technician, I'd have all these parts in stock,
but I don't, so, it takes me a while to get them from the
manufacturer.

PS: The application calls for a 12V, 5AH to 7 AH gel cell.
Assuming I get something in that range, are they all pretty much
alike, or are there caveats to buying these gel cells?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:01:57 -0500, tm wrote:

> That's normal. The secondary winding is floating.

Whew! I had expected a center-tapped transformer or something.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease on the odd voltages to the
ground lead.

The 20Volts I measured is probably because the RMS voltage must
be the 16.5Volts, so *that* part at least makes sense.

What voltage do you see across the aux terminals (DC)
with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

I measured 13.61 volts across the DC terminals with the AC
transformer in place.

That seems good, to me, if a bit low for charging a 12V battery.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer
in case something is shorted.

The transformer has a PTC fuse in the secondary.
But, I *do* agree with you.
I'm shocked there is no fuse.

I even asked at the intrusion alarm houses I visited today.
They said the board itself is protected from overloads, so,
nobody bothers with a fuse.

This reminds me of the situation with garage door torsion
springs where the "industry" puts in the cheapest spring
saving *them* ten bucks, but if you put in your own spring,
you *always* opt for the better (longer life) spring!

For me, I agree with you. I'm heading off to RadioShack
or Frys to get an inline fuse holder.

You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked
on the transformer.

It's a 16.5VAC (RMS) output, with a power of 45VA, so,
given I=P/V, I get I=45/16.5, where I is 2.7 Amps.

So, how does double that sound for a fuse, e.g.,
roughly around 5 Amps for the inline fuse for the
transformer secondary?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type
of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but,
maybe it's for other applications.

If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to
get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this
stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.

The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get
a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is
the terminal sizes.

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/elk-06120.html?productid=elk-06120&channelid=BCOME

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:32:09 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/elk-06120.html?productid=elk-06120&channelid=BCOME

Ooops. I pasted the wrong link (transposed the voltage and current rating).
Here's the link I had meant to post:
http://www.amazon.com/ELK-M1GSYS4-12V-Alarm-Battery/dp/B00B1GMXZC

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

And, the funny thing is, after digging a bit, I find out that
the (suggested) price list was right here, all along, on the net!
http://www.industry.usa.siemens.com/topics/us/en/btus/CommonwealthMA/Documents/bosch-intrusion-ifas-msrp-price-list-3-1-13.xlsx

Sheeesh!

 

[Tony Hwang]

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

Hi Tony,
The new power transformer solved (almost) all the problems!

Hi,
Good for you. From the beginning I told you to replace x-former,
check all the components on the board and test the battery with
automotive 12V bulb. Maybe you have selective
hearing or reading?, LOL! You are close to finish line now.

As soon as it arrived, I tested its output voltage (20 VAC),
which within the expected range:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Even so, the moment I plugged in the power transformer,
the D2212B circuit and the control panels came to life.
There is 13.6V at the battery terminals without the battery plugged in.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

I think, in the end, the only things that were bad were:
1. The transformer secondary blew out
2. The D135A capacitor seems to have been overheated
3. The battery is apparently bad

Luckily, all those are easy to fix!

I'm not sure *how* to read what the control panel is trying to
tell me since it only says "Call for Service", but, I'm pretty
sure it's trying to tell me the (bad) battery isn't connected.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/11078125064_68d907e787_o.gif
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/11078125174_95cb163704_o.gif

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.

You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD