Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad a

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:15:55 -0600, technomaNge wrote:

You shoulda got here a coupla years ago, Robert Bass would sell
anything to anybody.

This guy seems like one who can and will sell any Bosch Radionics
board to anyone: http://obsoleteradionics.com

 

[Tony Hwang]

NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2013.11.27.04.42.05@is.invalid...

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw) was weird
(see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and 1 volt on the
other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Hi,
That's why I still keep and use old Simpson 260.
Probably I use it more than Fluke day in day out.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:54:09 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Good for you. From the beginning I told you to replace x-former,
check all the components on the board and test the battery with
automotive 12V bulb. Maybe you have selective
hearing or reading?,

Well, actually, if I were a tech, I'd probably would have had
the transformer on hand, and therefore, it would have taken an
hour to get to this point.

As it was, I *immediately* ordered the transformer the moment I
disconnected and tested it, because it clearly had a blown
secondary.

In fact, contrary to what you may assume, I probably even ordered
that well before you said to do it (it was blown, after all), so,
it's not at all that I have "selective hearing"; it's just that it
took a few days for the parts to arrive.

Had the parts arrived sooner, we'd be at this point sooner.

Anyway, I am now searching for the right battery to buy.

I'm not sure if they have a "series" size, like car batteries do,
where batteries within a given series fit (e.g., side terminal,
top terminal, etc.).

Anyway, the parts I either ordered or will order are:
1. Transformer (received)
2. Battery (to be ordered)
3. D135A battery-protection circuit (after testing further)

 

[Tony Hwang]

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD

Hi,
Even if so, that kinda feature is very easy to hack. I used to retrieve
code and save, load, copy, etc. on all kinda controllers. I am out of
the loop now being retired but gained skill and knowledge is still in my
brain. I often unbrick wireless routers for friends and neighbors
using similar method. I use J-tag or serial connection to get inside the
sick router for an example.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:42:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

DSC makes pretty good stuff. ^_^
http://www.dsc.com/

Thanks for that reference, as its good to know what's
a good outfit from the plethora out there on the net.

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2013.11.27.03.48.00@is.invalid...

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary
b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?

That's normal. The secondary winding is floating. What voltage do you see
across the aux terminals (DC)?

Is a) above with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer in case
something is shorted. You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked on the transformer.

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message newsan.2013.11.27.04.42.05@is.invalid...

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

 

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2013.11.27.05.16.09@is.invalid...

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:01:57 -0500, tm wrote:

That's normal. The secondary winding is floating.

Whew! I had expected a center-tapped transformer or something.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease on the odd voltages to the
ground lead.

The 20Volts I measured is probably because the RMS voltage must
be the 16.5Volts, so *that* part at least makes sense.

What voltage do you see across the aux terminals (DC)
with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

I measured 13.61 volts across the DC terminals with the AC
transformer in place.

That seems good, to me, if a bit low for charging a 12V battery.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer
in case something is shorted.

The transformer has a PTC fuse in the secondary.
But, I *do* agree with you.
I'm shocked there is no fuse.

I even asked at the intrusion alarm houses I visited today.
They said the board itself is protected from overloads, so,
nobody bothers with a fuse.

This reminds me of the situation with garage door torsion
springs where the "industry" puts in the cheapest spring
saving *them* ten bucks, but if you put in your own spring,
you *always* opt for the better (longer life) spring!

For me, I agree with you. I'm heading off to RadioShack
or Frys to get an inline fuse holder.

You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked
on the transformer.

It's a 16.5VAC (RMS) output, with a power of 45VA, so,
given I=P/V, I get I=45/16.5, where I is 2.7 Amps.

So, how does double that sound for a fuse, e.g.,
roughly around 5 Amps for the inline fuse for the
transformer secondary?

You will measure 16.5 volts RMS AC when the load is 45 VA.

Use a 3 amp fuse.

Can you check the current draw with your meter on AC Amps? Just for
reference.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:49:57 -0500, tm wrote:

> You will measure 16.5 volts RMS AC when the load is 45 VA.

Ah. I see. Makes sense. The voltage drops under load.

> Use a 3 amp fuse.

Again, makes sense. That (roughly) equals the rating.

> Can you check the current draw with your meter on AC Amps?

I measured roughly 700Ma to 800Ma AC current out of the secondary
winding when I powered it up and set the alarm and opened a door,
etc.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/11080669443_9cb7dbacb0_o.gif
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/11080670153_27483d2de9_o.gif
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2865/11080574116_6743a084a9_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:45:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

I spoke to a few of the intrusion alarm guys, and they said they
get used LOCKED boards all the time, but, they can't program them, so,
they're useless as a resale item because of that.

One guy told me that Bosch will provide him the unlock code
for $75 a board, but, even if he gets the board for free,
he can't make any money selling it at only $25 above that cost.

So, he told me, they lock them to make all old boards useless.

Of course, he probably had a specific view slated toward resale,
but, if they LOCK the boards to keep the burglars out, I still
don't get *how* the burglar is supposed to benefit.

I mean, there must be *easier* ways to circumvent an alarm system
than re-programming the whole thing, aren't there?

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/27/2013 1:08 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD
Hi,
Even if so, that kinda feature is very easy to hack. I used to retrieve
code and save, load, copy, etc. on all kinda controllers. I am out of
the loop now being retired but gained skill and knowledge is still in my
brain. I often unbrick wireless routers for friends and neighbors
using similar method. I use J-tag or serial connection to get inside the
sick router for an example.

Well Tony, I've seen all sorts ways to get into routers and their
controllers but alarm systems usually have proprietary code and perhaps
on chip encryption. No doubt with your skill set you could get into one
of them and reset it but it's been many years since I've seen any
digital alarm system board that could be reset with a simple jumper. The
early digital alarm systems weren't that sophisticated and were easy for
someone with a modicum of electronics knowledge to reset because the
digital systems were a magical arcane conglomeration of parts that few
miscreants understood. Well, the crooks caught up and manufacturers have
had to keep pace. I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

TDD

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/27/2013 12:43 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:42:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

DSC makes pretty good stuff. ^_^ http://www.dsc.com/

Thanks for that reference, as its good to know what's a good outfit
from the plethora out there on the net.

Their stuff is OK, even if it is Canadian. ^_^

TDD

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/27/2013 1:52 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:45:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

I spoke to a few of the intrusion alarm guys, and they said they
get used LOCKED boards all the time, but, they can't program them, so,
they're useless as a resale item because of that.

One guy told me that Bosch will provide him the unlock code
for $75 a board, but, even if he gets the board for free,
he can't make any money selling it at only $25 above that cost.

So, he told me, they lock them to make all old boards useless.

Of course, he probably had a specific view slated toward resale,
but, if they LOCK the boards to keep the burglars out, I still
don't get *how* the burglar is supposed to benefit.

I mean, there must be *easier* ways to circumvent an alarm system
than re-programming the whole thing, aren't there?

That crap you see on TV about a guy walking up to an alarm system keypad
with a magic box having a ribbon cable to plug into the alarm keypad,
popping the cover and cracking the code in under 10 seconds, it doesn't
work. The alarm would trigger as soon as the keypad cover was removed. ^_^

TDD

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message newsan.2013.11.27.05.32.09@is.invalid...

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:


But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/elk-06120.html?productid=elk-06120&channelid=BCOME

As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you
want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should
be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue. The anal retentive
types will disagree, but if you have larger spade terminals, they will
work on the smaller spade terminals that some batteries have.

*I presume you already know the current battery voltage, if not, check and
make note of it*

In your case, test the board output (bypass the battery cut-out
board--come directly off of alarm board) of the alarm board.
Power system off (unplug transformer). Plug battery in and power
system back on. Check the voltage at the battery terminals. 13.5
to 14.7 is an acceptable reading (anything 13 or above will work,
just takes a bit more time to recharge and will not give a true
full charge).

Note: Most charging systems do not give grief when a battery is
disconnected while the system is powered up. I only state
to turn off/disconnect power as a caveat. Make certain that
neither lead comes in contact with anything else. Wrap
each lead with tape or protect with non-conductive shell.

Unplug positive lead of battery and unpowered system. Let stand for
half an hour and check the voltage of the battery. If above initial
low reading, and steady, your battery probably is still good. You did
start out at 13.5, originally.

Plug battery back in and power up system and let charge overnight.
Unplug the battery and leave in place all day. I do believe I do not
need to repeat myself as to how to do this. After a minimum of six
hours, check the voltage of the battery. Is it 13.5?

Of course, you may check the charging voltage in 1 hour increments to
verify that the charging system is lowering the charge voltage over
time. Cooking a battery is not a good idea.

I still recommend buying a small U.P.S. to filter the input to the
system, and providing additional run time. Someone here posted a
link to a battery cut-out unit that was universal. Get it and install
it. Don't mess with making the entire system OEM. Make it work and,
if possible, work better.

 

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.


This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business back
in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the company,
unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000 a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you think
McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a year?

 

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:51:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:49:01 -0500, krw wrote:

Buy a system from someone else, if you don't like the way
they do business.

For two reasons, that is exactly what I would do were I to build
a system of my own, from assembled parts.

I hope you don't intend on having it connected to the police
department. They will *really* frown on that.

1. You can't get the Bosch parts anyway, so, nobody can build their
own system out of Bosch parts, and,

Understandable. It's not reasonable to build cars out of Ford parts,
either.

2. Even if I could get Bosch parts, I wouldn't build a system out
of restricted parts, simply because it would be difficult to
expand and repair in the future.

Huh?

However, when I asked today at a few intrusion alarm places, they
told me that the "reason" Bosch is restrictive is to prevent
intelligent burglaries.

Perhaps. It's their business. If you don't like it, go somewhere
else.

 

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:48:00 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<danny@is.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary

Reasonable. You tested it with no load, right?

b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?

The secondary is isolated from the primary. Any measurements made
across the isolation are meaningless.

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:KJglu.338439$E8.175684@fx27.iad...

NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" <danny@is.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2013.11.27.04.42.05@is.invalid...

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw) was weird
(see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and 1 volt on the
other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Hi,
That's why I still keep and use old Simpson 260.
Probably I use it more than Fluke day in day out.

Oh, yeah. I miss my old Simpson, and even my old Fluke 73 (damned thief).
When tuning a Woodward 2301 or 2301A (or similar device), digital meters
are to flakey to easily accomplish the task. I managed, without, but
once in range of desired output eyeballing and a feel comes into play.
Having a crappy fuel source really adds another layer of frustration.
The dumb-ass plant operators that muck the settings up bring on the urge
to punch something in the throat.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:03:09 -0500, krw wrote:

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary

Reasonable. You tested it with no load, right?

Correct.

Also, when plugged into the alarm system, it only drew 800mA.

b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

The secondary is isolated from the primary. Any measurements made
across the isolation are meaningless.

Thanks.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:34:40 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you
want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should
be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue.

This is all good information.
I will order a battery, and a new battery-protection board, which,
I'm pretty sure, should solve the remaining problems.