Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[Tim+]

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/03/2023 19:27, Tim+ wrote:


I don\'t know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it\'s
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative at
night when coal plants don\'t want to reduce their output.

Happens here in the UK too occasionally. If you’re on the appropriate
tariff you get paid for using power.


This year you get paid for not using power.

This winter I\'ve been paid around £9 for not using electricity at
certain times. This is not when prices go negative but when the wind
has stopped blowing, at peak usage times and when the grid is in danger
of running out of electricity. Oh, and when it\'s dark and for some
strange reason solar is producing nothing. One of the benefits of UK
starting to rely on intermittent green power.


This scheme asks you to reduce consumption for maybe an hour at a
designated time of day. You have to be on a smart meter where your meter
data is updated on a 30 minute basis. They compare your usage for this
designated hour with your average usage at the same time of day for the
previous 10 days.

Well yes, but getting paid to use electricity is a thing if you’re on
Octopus Agile. This is completely separate from the use reduction reward
scheme.

Tim

--
Please don\'t feed the trolls

 

[boB]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax. Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building new wind farms?

They certainly could. Some are basicall synchronous machines which is
why they spin at one speed, unless they are off and braked.

I have a picture somewhere of the video production screen of a wind
farm in Oregon when I was visiting. The wind turbines (500 kW each)
had individual statistics information and a lot of them were producing
power, some were stopped and some were drawing energy (fans).
I just assumed that these power sucking turbines were just waiting for
wind to pass but I don\'t really know why. The power they were drawing
was somewhere between 35 kW and 50 kW as I remember.

boB

 

[SteveW]

On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

Sylvia.

If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?


I don\'t know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it\'s
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative
at night when coal plants don\'t want to reduce their output. If they
had another solution that didn\'t involve spending money, I\'m sure
they\'d use it.

That would be really nice for charging your car.



Though of course, the end user never sees a cent of this.

Sylvia.

Darn. You had me excited there. I was going to run an extension cord
from Australia to Maryland.

Germany has paid domestic users to use power on occasion.

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 15:05:20 -0700, boB, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding senile IDIOT and Yankietard, babbled:

They certainly could. Some are basicall synchronous machines which is
why they spin at one speed, unless they are off and braked.

I have a picture

....in addition to having shit for brains obviously, you troll-feeding
retarded senile Yankee shithead!

 

[Scott Lurndal]

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:

On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).

 

[alan_m]

On 19/03/2023 22:00, Tim+ wrote:

Well yes, but getting paid to use electricity is a thing if you’re on
Octopus Agile. This is completely separate from the use reduction reward
scheme.

That\'s a tariff that can also cost a lot more than the national capped rate.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Scott Lurndal]

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).

and most importantly,
3) Correct the grid power-factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).

3) Kill birds

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 20-Mar-23 3:01 am, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 21:49:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 10:23 pm, Frank wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Does not make any sense.  I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

I don\'t think the OP intended to suggest that this was used as a way to
store energy, just as a way to get rid of it.

Sylvia.

Electrolyze water. Or churn masses of ice cream.

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

Sylvia.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/19/2023 7:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).


3) Kill birds

Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> writes:

On 3/19/2023 7:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).


3) Kill birds


Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 20:17:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._Flaherty

Flaherty became famous after filming \'Nanook of the North\'. In later years
he filmed \'Louisiana Story\' about oil exploration in the bayous. The local
people and wildlife loved the oil rig. (Standard Oil paid for the film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Story

 

[Sam Plusnet]

On 20-Mar-23 0:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> writes:
On 3/19/2023 7:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).


3) Kill birds


Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

And the only electricity you can get from a cat is the static type.

--
Sam Plusnet

 

[Bob F]

On 3/19/2023 4:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

Wind farms will consume power from the grid (when there is insufficient wind) to:

1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is possible).
2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the direction
of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed of the
generator).


3) Kill birds

Like you really care about the birds?

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:48:16 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

We know some people who live in Inverness, who didn\'t have fast
internet.
A group of neighbors bought a cheap microwave link and piped in from a
friend across Tomales Bay. It\'s astounding what a Gbit microwave link
costs nowadays.

I use the Verizon wireless which works well except in heavy fog. Most of
the neighbors have dishes although I think most are for TVs. A bay would
be nice; we have these things called mountains. My former ISP had a
antenna on a local mountain but not one in my quasi line of sight.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 20-Mar-23 3:01 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 21:49:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 10:23 pm, Frank wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

I don\'t think the OP intended to suggest that this was used as a way to
store energy, just as a way to get rid of it.

Sylvia.

Electrolyze water. Or churn masses of ice cream.

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

This is a silly conversation, based on the musings of someone who should know better, but seldom does.

The grid has had to deliver power to fluctuating loads for many, many years.. They have had methods to deal with this since long before wind turbines were common. Larkin is a famous troll, saying anything he things will get various responses. He lives for this.

Sometimes this group is pretty sad.

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[alan_m]

On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

To make that a fair comparison you have to use the figures for kills per
cat and kills per windmill.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[alan_m]

On 19/03/2023 23:45, Sylvia Else wrote:

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

If the climate activists have their way there will not be any other
source of backup equipment after 2030 to provide any electricity when
the wind doesn\'t blow or the sun doesn\'t shine.

There seems to be another climate emergency (or whatever its called this
week) conference going on soon. On the early morning news there was an
activist from California and one from the UK spouting off about we have
the technology of Windmills and Solar (nothing else) to replace all
fossil fuel generation by 2030.

In Extinction Rebellion have their way there will be no oil to
lubricate the moving parts for the windmills, no oil to make tyres for
their bicycles and no tarmac for their cycle lanes.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2023-03-20, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

To make that a fair comparison you have to use the figures for kills per
cat and kills per windmill.

Many fewer wind turbines are needed per household than cats.




--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

 

[alan_m]

On 20/03/2023 06:56, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2023-03-20, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

To make that a fair comparison you have to use the figures for kills per
cat and kills per windmill.


Many fewer wind turbines are needed per household than cats.

Is there any need for cats?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk