Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:49:44 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:11:08 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 00.19.28 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

you can build one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk_Hydroelectric_Power_Station

That is a small toy, only 450 MW, 3600 MWh.

It will support only 100 - 200 wind turbines for 8 hours.

For about a billion dollars.

To fully back up all US wind turbines, 270 such dams would be required
In practice there is not a complete calm area all over the whole US at
once, so maybe 50 to 100 such dams are required that is 1-2 such dams
in each US state. However, this requires good high voltage lines
carrying power at least 1000 km into calm areas.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:54:41 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

How do you think a wind farm works when there is no wind? For 50% of the
windmills you turn on the fan mode so the rest of them can generate
electricity. It\'s the perfect perpetual motion scheme on a gigantic scale.

And the breeze would cool us all off and stop global warming.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:08:02 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 2:54 am, Ricky wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 7:23:16?AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?
Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

No, you speed it on its way. Then the next wind farm downstream can take advantage of it and recover the wind you created. Much more efficient than using wires to transport electricity.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is taking this seriously. On face value, it\'s a silly idea. Dig into even the basic facts and it becomes preposterous.

Typical Commander Kinky stuff.


Not untypical for a thinking person\'s group. Even if an idea is wacky,
people kick it around, and see what comes out of it. Sometimes one
learns something new.

Sylvia.

Yes, whacky ideas are a good path to good ideas.

Ricky is irony impaired. Some people are that way. Philomena Cunk
makes literalness funny.



A little nonsense now and then
Is treasured by the wisest men.

- Willy Wonka

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 21:49:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 10:23 pm, Frank wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Does not make any sense.  I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

I don\'t think the OP intended to suggest that this was used as a way to
store energy, just as a way to get rid of it.

Sylvia.

Electrolyze water. Or churn masses of ice cream.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.

this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

Sylvia.

If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?


I don\'t know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it\'s
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative
at night when coal plants don\'t want to reduce their output. If they
had another solution that didn\'t involve spending money, I\'m sure
they\'d use it.

That would be really nice for charging your car.



Though of course, the end user never sees a cent of this.

Sylvia.

Darn. You had me excited there. I was going to run an extension cord
from Australia to Maryland.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 11:39:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

You mean compared to our current grid design that only has 50% backup? The US sees daily fluctuations of 50% of the grid generating capacity. That means half of the generating capacity is not running at any given time. Not a big change really, to making it 100%.

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.

Natural gas is a great, reliable, clean, cheap power source, a gift to
humanity.

It just has one problem, which fortunately, renewable power can fix.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:08:02 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 2:54 am, Ricky wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 7:23:16?AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?
Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

No, you speed it on its way. Then the next wind farm downstream can take advantage of it and recover the wind you created. Much more efficient than using wires to transport electricity.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is taking this seriously. On face value, it\'s a silly idea. Dig into even the basic facts and it becomes preposterous.

Typical Commander Kinky stuff.


Not untypical for a thinking person\'s group. Even if an idea is wacky,
people kick it around, and see what comes out of it. Sometimes one
learns something new.

Sylvia.

Yes, whacky ideas are a good path to good ideas.

Ricky is irony impaired. Some people are that way. Philomena Cunk
makes literalness funny.

Larkin reminds me of a Beatles song.

Too bad he continues to demonstrate it.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On 18 Mar 2023 18:49:58 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:36:50 +0000, alan_m wrote:


But you probably would have got the bulbs cheaper by purchasing them
yourself rather than overpaying on your bills and then being given some
of your own money back (via bulbs) minus an administration charge.

There was never \"FREE\" LED bulbs - you just paid for them in a
convoluted way.

I\'m in a power co-op that sent out CFLs and the LEDs. The mail person
really loved the pile of boxes suddenly appearing to be delivered.

The co-op also pays out a dividend. It isn\'t much, usually around $50, but
it\'s refreshing getting money back. It is associated with the Bonneville
Power Authority so we weren\'t hit with massive rate increases after the
deregulation fiasco.

Historically it goes back to Roosevelt\'s Rural Electrification Act of
1936. The utility companies didn\'t want to get involved so the farmers and
ranchers formed co-ops.

I\'m waiting for the Rural Fiber Cable Act but I don\'t think that\'s going
to happen.

We know some people who live in Inverness, who didn\'t have fast
internet. A group of neighbors bought a cheap microwave link and piped
in from a friend across Tomales Bay. It\'s astounding what a Gbit
microwave link costs nowadays.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 12:03:27 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.
this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo

Sums up what, exactly?

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 23:37:51 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 00:48:42 +0000, alan_m
junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
to read.

Where I live it was more like once every two years.

Knock on the door

Our meter boxes are all on an outside wall of the house.


In the UK there is a mix, around my way outside for most newer
properties or often when houses have been converted to flats.
Along my road most houses have their electricity and gas meter inside
the house with no external meter box.

Smart meters are not compulsory and many people have refused the offer
to have them fitted. There has been quite a lot of adverse publicity
recently surrounding smart meters. With energy prices doubling many

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

We got this from our utility. They alerted us to a suspected water
leak, which was real.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnq4lzds3ku5nko/Truckee_Leak.jpg?raw=1

That graph is after the leak was fixed. They seem to read the meters
often and have algorithms to flag unusual patterns.

 

[Sam Plusnet]

On 18-Mar-23 16:38, John Larkin wrote:

Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

Steam ships that used poor quality coal paid for it with greatly
increased maintenance costs, and significantly reduced performance.

--
Sam Plusnet

 

[Tim+]

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

Sylvia.

If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?


I don\'t know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it\'s
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative at
night when coal plants don\'t want to reduce their output.

Happens here in the UK too occasionally. If you’re on the appropriate
tariff you get paid for using power.

Tim



--
Please don\'t feed the trolls

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 18.51.25 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 12:03:27 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.
this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo
Sums up what, exactly?

That driving a Tesla, turning up the AC, recycling, and complaining that politicians aren\'t saving the climate is going to make no difference
there\'s a few billion people who want the same conveniences we have and couldn\'t care less about being green, they are too poor to care
about that. The only way they are going green is if green is cheaper than the alternative

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.
this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo

Brilliant and obviously right. And funny; wokesters are never funny.

But he doesn\'t mention Africa for some reason.

He does touch on one thing that I have observed: greeniewokesters seem
to think that their carbon footprint affects their own climate, as if
there were a giant plastic bubble over Berkeley.

And they want the dark-skinned poor people of the world to stay poor.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 18.51.25 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 12:03:27?PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine.\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.
this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo
Sums up what, exactly?

That driving a Tesla, turning up the AC, recycling, and complaining that politicians aren\'t saving the climate is going to make no difference
there\'s a few billion people who want the same conveniences we have and couldn\'t care less about being green, they are too poor to care
about that. The only way they are going green is if green is cheaper than the alternative

In the long term, nutrition and education and sensible government
reduce birth rates, and the planet is now suffering from
over-population. So, paradoxically to some, giving poor people more
resources will in the long term conserve resources.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:18:21 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 16:38, John Larkin wrote:
Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

Steam ships that used poor quality coal paid for it with greatly
increased maintenance costs, and significantly reduced performance.

I was thinking about \"Residual fuel oil\" like Bunker C, not coal. It
has to be heated to make it liquid enough to pump, and it\'s full of
sulfur and stuff.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 22.04.30 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:18:21 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 16:38, John Larkin wrote:
Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

Steam ships that used poor quality coal paid for it with greatly
increased maintenance costs, and significantly reduced performance.
I was thinking about \"Residual fuel oil\" like Bunker C, not coal. It
has to be heated to make it liquid enough to pump, and it\'s full of
sulfur and stuff.

yeh, heated to ~90\'C on the ship, since 2020 the maximum allowed sulphur
content in a ships fuel is 0.5% and in certain areas, close to the coast,
and in harbor it is <0.10%

 

[alan_m]

On 19/03/2023 19:27, Tim+ wrote:

I don\'t know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it\'s
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative at
night when coal plants don\'t want to reduce their output.

Happens here in the UK too occasionally. If you’re on the appropriate
tariff you get paid for using power.

This year you get paid for not using power.

This winter I\'ve been paid around £9 for not using electricity at
certain times. This is not when prices go negative but when the wind
has stopped blowing, at peak usage times and when the grid is in danger
of running out of electricity. Oh, and when it\'s dark and for some
strange reason solar is producing nothing. One of the benefits of UK
starting to rely on intermittent green power.


This scheme asks you to reduce consumption for maybe an hour at a
designated time of day. You have to be on a smart meter where your meter
data is updated on a 30 minute basis. They compare your usage for this
designated hour with your average usage at the same time of day for the
previous 10 days.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 4:17:39 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 18.51.25 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 12:03:27 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
søndag den 19. marts 2023 kl. 16.39.55 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 01:19:19 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about.
Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages,


Pumped hydro requires two quite big lakes at quite close together with
a significant difference in height.Not all countries have such
conditions.

Some back of the envelope calculations:

Assuming 100 m height difference and 1000 m3/s through turbines(pumps.
The electric power is about 1 GW so it can deliver the power of only
330 wind turbines (each 3 MW).

If the water level is allowed to vary by 10 m, at 1000 m3/s stream a 1
km2 surface lake only lasts for 10000 seconds or 3 hours. Usable to
handle day peaks. To ride through a week long calm period, each lake
should have a 56 km2 surface area. This handles just the missed
production of 330 windmills !!

and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The utility size batteries seems to be packed into sea containers
storing about 30 MWh. This will store the production of a _single_3 MW
wind turbine for 10 hours. Install a battery container at the base of
each turbine and the system can handle half a day missing wind
production. To handle a week of missing wind production, several
containers would be needed at every wind turbine. Not very cost
effective !!

Good stuff, but please be kind and don\'t confuse Sloman with numbers.


Use diesels or gas turbines to back up the missing wind production
during calm days.

That\'s expensive, having 100% of grid load backup sitting around doing
nothing most of the time. But it need not be \"at every wind turbine..\"

Generating power the way we\'re doing it isn\'t a problem that needs to
be solved. It is prudent to phase out or clean up the dirtiest coal
plants, but India and China are not going to stop building coal
plants, and Australia won\'t stop selling them the coal. Half the
people in Africa don\'t have electricity yet, and they have lots of
coal and NG too.
this pretty much sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo
Sums up what, exactly?
That driving a Tesla, turning up the AC, recycling, and complaining that politicians aren\'t saving the climate is going to make no difference
there\'s a few billion people who want the same conveniences we have and couldn\'t care less about being green, they are too poor to care
about that. The only way they are going green is if green is cheaper than the alternative

Ok

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209