Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off?...

[SteveW]

On 01/03/2023 20:55, tony sayer wrote:

It is, however, their business if the electrical problem
causes a fire that burns down half the town, or takes out
a condominium project or flats.

An RCD does not prevent fire or shorting the power source. It is only
there to protect someone in your own house from a shock. Please learn
what the different devices actually do before making such a stupid
statement.

It can prevent a fire if the fault is a resistance that heats
sufficiently connected accidentally between live and earth, at the metal
chassis, which has not sufficient current to blow the fuse.

just an example.

An example pulled out of thin air which will probably never happen. Anything
producing enough heat should blow the fuse anyway, since anything less than that
is the intended consumption of the appliance.

And if we didn\'t earth the chassis of everything so much would be better. Like
touching a live wouldn\'t conduct through your leg to the earthed washing
machine. I de-earthed my microwave incase my pet parrot chewed the flex while
stood on the microwave.

Apparently those namby pamby ELCBs don\'t like microwaves, since they
deliberately leak to earth. At my work, someone had put an ELCB for a large
section of the building, and a single microwave tripped it. The microwave was
functioning just fine, but this stupid breaker kept cutting power to a large
number of offices. They removed it.

Why do people keep changing the names? It was always Earth Leakage Circuit
Breaker. Now we have RCD and GFCI. WTF? They mean the same thing! Stuff goes
to earth and it switches off.

I suggest you read up on how a RCD Residual Current Device works, ELCB
are rather olde hat now.

An RCD measures the current flowing on in one wire and that going out on
the other as long as they are in balance, then all fine.

However if they are not then they will trip. That is caused by some
current leaking to earth somewhere that could be a simple leakage fault
such as a heating element breaking down or it could be through your body
not good!

Its simply stupid to un-earth things like microwaves and the like what
if they developed a fault with current was leaking to the metalwork of
the unit that would then be live and is then capable if a shock not
pleasant! i had one once very very painful and I couldn\'t let go thats
the worst part this was in pre RCD days!

It is possible for a large number of PC\'s on one ring main to cause a
trip to go but it has to be quite a lot as they have capacitors in them
which are from live to earth and will introduce some leakage usually
much less then that the 30 ma RCD is designed to trip at.

That was exactly the trouble we had - far to many electrical devices,
with leaky filters on the power supply input. It would work fine for
weeks and then randomly trip once in a while. Solved by splitting the
leakage, by ditching the RCD and changing out all the MCBs for RCBOs
instead.

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 20:55:29 +0000, tony sayer, another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:


> I suggest you read

I suggest you sick senile asshole stop feeding the troll. Capisci, you
useless old moron?

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:05:31 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why were they never made of something more grippy than highly polished
steel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Washington_Cog_Railway

 

[Peeler]

On 2 Mar 2023 03:09:14 GMT,lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

Why were they never made of something more grippy than highly polished
steel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Washington_Cog_Railway

Yet another retarded \"question\" by the sociopathic attention whore that you
can\'t resist answering, senile washerwoman?

--
More of the senile gossip\'s absolutely idiotic senile blather:
\"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn\'t do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
\'We keep God\'s time in Virginia.\'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while.\"

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1@dont-email.me>

 

[tony sayer]

I suggest you read up on how a RCD Residual Current Device works, ELCB
are rather olde hat now.

An RCD measures the current flowing on in one wire and that going out on
the other as long as they are in balance, then all fine.

However if they are not then they will trip. That is caused by some
current leaking to earth somewhere that could be a simple leakage fault
such as a heating element breaking down or it could be through your body
not good!

Its simply stupid to un-earth things like microwaves and the like what
if they developed a fault with current was leaking to the metalwork of
the unit that would then be live and is then capable if a shock not
pleasant! i had one once very very painful and I couldn\'t let go thats
the worst part this was in pre RCD days!

It is possible for a large number of PC\'s on one ring main to cause a
trip to go but it has to be quite a lot as they have capacitors in them
which are from live to earth and will introduce some leakage usually
much less then that the 30 ma RCD is designed to trip at.

That was exactly the trouble we had - far to many electrical devices,
with leaky filters on the power supply input. It would work fine for
weeks and then randomly trip once in a while. Solved by splitting the
leakage, by ditching the RCD and changing out all the MCBs for RCBOs
instead.

Yes thats a very good idea and response to that sort of problem.

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 01/03/2023 22:25, SteveW wrote:

On 01/03/2023 20:55, tony sayer wrote:

It is, however, their business if the electrical problem
causes a fire that burns down half the town, or takes out
a condominium project or flats.

An RCD does not prevent fire or shorting the power source.  It is only
there to protect someone in your own house from a shock.  Please learn
what the different devices actually do before making such a stupid
statement.

It can prevent a fire if the fault is a resistance that heats
sufficiently connected accidentally between live and earth, at the
metal
chassis, which has not sufficient current to blow the fuse.

just an example.

An example pulled out of thin air which will probably never happen.
Anything
producing enough heat should blow the fuse anyway, since anything
less than that
is the intended consumption of the appliance.

And if we didn\'t earth the chassis of everything so much would be
better.  Like
touching a live wouldn\'t conduct through your leg to the earthed washing
machine.  I de-earthed my microwave incase my pet parrot chewed the
flex while
stood on the microwave.

Apparently those namby pamby ELCBs don\'t like microwaves, since they
deliberately leak to earth.  At my work, someone had put an ELCB for
a large
section of the building, and a single microwave tripped it.  The
microwave was
functioning just fine, but this stupid breaker kept cutting power to
a large
number of offices.  They removed it.

Why do people keep changing the names?  It was always Earth Leakage
Circuit
Breaker.  Now we have RCD and GFCI.  WTF?  They mean the same thing!
Stuff goes
to earth and it switches off.

I suggest you read up on how a RCD Residual Current Device works, ELCB
are rather olde hat now.

An RCD measures the current flowing on in one wire and that going out on
the other as long as they are in balance, then all fine.

However if they are not then they will trip. That is caused by some
current leaking to earth somewhere that could be a simple leakage fault
such as a heating element breaking down or it could be through your body
not good!

Its simply stupid to un-earth things like microwaves and the like what
if they developed a fault with current was leaking to the metalwork of
the unit that would then be live and is then capable if a shock not
pleasant! i had one once very very painful and I couldn\'t let go thats
the worst part this was in pre RCD days!

It is possible for a large number of PC\'s on one ring main to cause a
trip to go but it has to be quite a lot as they have capacitors in them
which are from live to earth and will introduce some leakage usually
much less then that the 30 ma RCD is designed to trip at.

That was exactly the trouble we had - far to many electrical devices,
with leaky filters on the power supply input. It would work fine for
weeks and then randomly trip once in a while. Solved by splitting the
leakage, by ditching the RCD and changing out all the MCBs for RCBOs
instead.

In the end that is all you can do. Ditch the whole premises RCD and
individually make rings protected.

I can give you one data point. A mouse tripped my 100mA RCD, but it died
in the process.

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-01 16:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 18:37:18 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 12:38:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


In practice the railroads were built to run steam trains with up to 8
close spaced driving wheels, and if that made life difficult, tough.

The big 8 wheelers were more suited to the USA with bigger steeper
inclines but seldom tight curves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geared_steam_locomotive

https://fortmissoulamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Brief-History-
of-Engine-7.pdf

The Mount Ranier museum has a working Willamette but they shut down
during
the covid panic.

ROFL, there\'s still people wearing masks here.  I went to hospital with
a suspected broken thumb and everyone had a mask on.  They glared at me
sternly when I refused.

It is mandatory here in hospitals.

And it is to protect other patients from YOU.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 21:49:37 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

It is mandatory here in hospitals.

And it is to protect other patients from YOU.

You STILL fall for all the sick crap he keeps inventing to attract the
attention of all the troll-feeding senile assholes in these groups? <BG>

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:55:13 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 07:54:04 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Don\'t they have twist grips on derailers? (However you spell that, my
newsreader doesn\'t know)

Grip shifters were big in the \'90s although I think SRAM has introduced
them again. I can\'t remember ever having them. I transitioned from the old
friction levers on the downtube to thumb shifters.

One problem with the grip shifters on mountain bikes is when you\'re
holding on to the grips for dear life a bump can result in an unexpected
shift.

When I was about 20 I had a friend who was a nutter on a mountain bike. Going down mountains without applying brakes. He had a new 3 grand bike, I had a fairly new half grand bike. He wasn\'t happy when his suspension fell in half and mine didn\'t. Yeah, super lightweight fancy expensive stuff doesn\'t cut it. I prefer sturdy.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:04:08 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 07:51:59 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Don\'t motorbikes have cruise control nowadays?

Some, particularly the big Harleys and GoldWings. One of my bikes has a
screw to lock the throttle, sort of a cruise control I guess.

A screw operated by a screwdriver?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 14:26:58 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 25/02/2023 07:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:39:44 -0000, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 16:27, NY wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:56, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:38:43 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

What about water taps? Most turn anticlockwise to unscrew the tap so as
to increase the pressure, but a few go the opposite way. And there seems
to be no consensus as to whether the cold or the hot tap should be on
the left: doesn\'t matter as long its separate taps with coloured
inserts, but some modern mixer taps, which rotate to vary temperature
and rock back and forth to vary water flow, have no indication as to
which way to rotate to get hot water - and sometimes you have to choose
a rotation arbitrarily and wait: if the water remains cold and never
runs warm after a while, try the other way

In Spain there are conventions on that. Hot is left. But German taps
(Grohe brand) assume hot is right. They all turn in the same direction,
although modern ones do not have any screw thread.

So when we installed a Grohe on the kitchen, we reversed the tubes. Hot
is left, but red colour.

But red?! Hot IS red.

That\'s just a convention. And blue is cold. Sometimes cold is green
instead; why\'s that? Maybe green should be hot and red cold, as I think
green chillies are \"hotter\" than red.

It\'s the colour of your skin at different temperatures. They could have gone by the colour of metal (blue is hotter), but that would be less understood by the masses.

 

[rbowman]

On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 01:13:41 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:04:08 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 07:51:59 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Don\'t motorbikes have cruise control nowadays?

Some, particularly the big Harleys and GoldWings. One of my bikes has a
screw to lock the throttle, sort of a cruise control I guess.

A screw operated by a screwdriver?

http://www.indianmotoparts.com/media/ss_size1/41-030TLK.jpg

Officially it\'s a throttle tension adjustment. Crank it down and it\'s a
poor man\'s cruise control. The trick is to get it tight enough so the
throttle won\'t close by itself but you can still manually twist it.

It\'s really handy so you can stand on the pegs, stick your arms out, and
play airplane.

 

[rbowman]

On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 01:13:18 -0000, Commander Kinsey wrote:

When I was about 20 I had a friend who was a nutter on a mountain bike.
Going down mountains without applying brakes. He had a new 3 grand
bike,
I had a fairly new half grand bike. He wasn\'t happy when his suspension
fell in half and mine didn\'t. Yeah, super lightweight fancy expensive
stuff doesn\'t cut it. I prefer sturdy.

My first Mtn. bike was a high end GT that I bought in the late \'80s. As
might be expected the components were the latest, greatest. The rear
brakes were a Shimano U-brake design that fell out of favor very quickly.
It had Biopace chainwheels, sort of an elliptical design that faded just
as rapidly. There was a frangible derailleur hanger that was delicate and
very unique. The seat tube was an odd diameter.

when someone stole it they were doing me a favor. I replaced it with a
plain vanilla bike with suspension forks.

 

[Peeler]

On 3 Mar 2023 03:14:07 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> My first Mtn. bike was a

Oh, fuck! Shove your first mountain bike up yours! Or, better, into your big
mouth, you abnormal, self-admiring, self-important senile gossip!

--
More of the pathological senile gossip\'s sick shit squeezed out of his sick
head:
\"Skunk probably tastes like chicken. I\'ve never gotten that comparison,
most famously with Chicken of the Sea. Tuna is a fish and tastes like a
fish. I will admit I\'ve had chicken that tasted like fish. I don\'t think I
want to know what they were feeding it.\"
MID: <k44t5lFl1k3U4@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 3 Mar 2023 02:55:51 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

http://www.indianmotoparts.com/media/ss_size1/41-030TLK.jpg

Officially it\'s a throttle tension adjustment.

Officially, he\'s a trolling attention whore, and you an abnormal
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE!

--
More of the senile gossip\'s absolutely idiotic senile blather:
\"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn\'t do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
\'We keep God\'s time in Virginia.\'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while.\"

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1@dont-email.me>

 

[NY]

\"The Natural Philosopher\" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ttptpa$27bbi$42@dont-email.me...

That was exactly the trouble we had - far to many electrical devices,
with leaky filters on the power supply input. It would work fine for
weeks and then randomly trip once in a while. Solved by splitting the
leakage, by ditching the RCD and changing out all the MCBs for RCBOs
instead.

In the end that is all you can do. Ditch the whole premises RCD and
individually make rings protected.

Whole-house RCDs are a right pain. At our previous house we had one spur
that ran to an outhouse. If there was a storm, the house RCD would trip if
the spur\'s MCB was turned on, but would not if the spur was turned off.
After losing a freezer full of food because the whole house had tripped, we
got into the habit of turning off the \"outside\" MCB whenever we were not
using it - and especially if we were going away on holiday.

If each ring main or spur had had a separate RCD, only that circuit would
have tripped if there was an apparent earth leakage problem.

But I imagine RCDs are expensive and MCBs are cheap, so circuits are
protected only by over-current, and then the whole house is protected by
earth-leakage RCD.


Apart from cost, is there any disadvantage in dispensing with over-current
MCBs altogether, and protecting each circuit with its own
over-current/earth-leakage combined circuit breaker so as to confine the
power-loss to the smallest practicable set of appliances?

 

[Max Demian]

On 03/03/2023 01:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 14:26:58 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:
On 25/02/2023 07:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:39:44 -0000, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 16:27, NY wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:56, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:38:43 -0000, Mark Lloyd
not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

What about water taps? Most turn anticlockwise to unscrew the tap
so as
to increase the pressure, but a few go the opposite way. And there
seems
to be no consensus as to whether the cold or the hot tap should be on
the left: doesn\'t matter as long its separate taps with coloured
inserts, but some modern mixer taps, which rotate to vary temperature
and rock back and forth to vary water flow, have no indication as to
which way to rotate to get hot water - and sometimes you have to
choose
a rotation arbitrarily and wait: if the water remains cold and never
runs warm after a while, try the other way

In Spain there are conventions on that. Hot is left. But German taps
(Grohe brand) assume hot is right. They all turn in the same direction,
although modern ones do not have any screw thread.

So when we installed a Grohe on the kitchen, we reversed the tubes. Hot
is left, but red colour.

But red?!  Hot IS red.

That\'s just a convention. And blue is cold. Sometimes cold is green
instead; why\'s that? Maybe green should be hot and red cold, as I think
green chillies are \"hotter\" than red.

It\'s the colour of your skin at different temperatures.  They could have
gone by the colour of metal (blue is hotter), but that would be less
understood by the masses.

No metal can stand the temperature needed to go blue (>10,000K).

So why is it sometimes green for cold? My skin is never green, as I
don\'t photosynthesise.

--
Max Demian

 

[jon]

On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 12:45:00 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

On 03/03/2023 01:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 14:26:58 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:
On 25/02/2023 07:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:39:44 -0000, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 16:27, NY wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:56, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:38:43 -0000, Mark Lloyd
not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

What about water taps? Most turn anticlockwise to unscrew the tap
so as to increase the pressure, but a few go the opposite way. And
there seems to be no consensus as to whether the cold or the hot
tap should be on the left: doesn\'t matter as long its separate taps
with coloured inserts, but some modern mixer taps, which rotate to
vary temperature and rock back and forth to vary water flow, have
no indication as to which way to rotate to get hot water - and
sometimes you have to choose a rotation arbitrarily and wait: if
the water remains cold and never runs warm after a while, try the
other way

In Spain there are conventions on that. Hot is left. But German taps
(Grohe brand) assume hot is right. They all turn in the same
direction,
although modern ones do not have any screw thread.

So when we installed a Grohe on the kitchen, we reversed the tubes.
Hot is left, but red colour.

But red?!  Hot IS red.

That\'s just a convention. And blue is cold. Sometimes cold is green
instead; why\'s that? Maybe green should be hot and red cold, as I
think green chillies are \"hotter\" than red.

It\'s the colour of your skin at different temperatures.  They could
have gone by the colour of metal (blue is hotter), but that would be
less understood by the masses.

No metal can stand the temperature needed to go blue (>10,000K).

So why is it sometimes green for cold? My skin is never green, as I
don\'t photosynthesise.

The chrome on my motorbike exhaust tuned blue, but not at >10000K.

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:45:00 +0000, Max Dumbian, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

No metal can stand the temperature needed to go blue (>10,000K).

So why is it sometimes green for cold? My skin is never green, as I
don\'t photosynthesise.

Right, your skin is never green, but your head is always full of shit, you
subnormal troll-feeding senile idiot!

--
Max Dumb having another senile moment:
\"It\'s the consistency of the shit that counts. Sometimes I don\'t need to
wipe, but I have to do so to tell. Also humans have buttocks to get
smeared due to our bipedalism.\"
Message-ID: <6vydnWiYDoV1VUrDnZ2dnUU78QednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

 

[SteveW]

On 03/03/2023 09:49, NY wrote:

\"The Natural Philosopher\" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ttptpa$27bbi$42@dont-email.me...

That was exactly the trouble we had - far to many electrical devices,
with leaky filters on the power supply input. It would work fine for
weeks and then randomly trip once in a while. Solved by splitting the
leakage, by ditching the RCD and changing out all the MCBs for RCBOs
instead.

In the end that is all you can do.  Ditch the whole premises RCD and
individually make rings protected.

Whole-house RCDs are a right pain. At our previous house we had one spur
that ran to an outhouse. If there was a storm, the house RCD would trip
if the spur\'s MCB was turned on, but would not if the spur was turned
off. After losing a freezer full of food because the whole house had
tripped, we got into the habit of turning off the \"outside\" MCB whenever
we were not using it - and especially if we were going away on holiday.

If each ring main or spur had had a separate RCD, only that circuit
would have tripped if there was an apparent earth leakage problem.

But I imagine RCDs are expensive and MCBs are cheap, so circuits are
protected only by over-current, and then the whole house is protected by
earth-leakage RCD.

I can buy MCBs for my CU for about £3.50 or RCBOs for about £35 -
although I managed to find them online for about £17 when I was changing
mine.

Apart from cost, is there any disadvantage in dispensing with
over-current MCBs altogether, and protecting each circuit with its own
over-current/earth-leakage combined circuit breaker so as to confine the
power-loss to the smallest practicable set of appliances?

I can\'t think of any. There are even additional advantages - unlike most
MCBs, the RCBO isolates both live and neutral when off. The ones on mine
can even remain connected, but off, for working on the circuit or for
carrying out insulation resistance testing.