Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?

[Ulysses]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:a1f5255e0rei6pjht4skkig6od61is9nue@4ax.com...

On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid
wrote:

Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.

Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.

Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
quality. Sounds like a plan.

I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

However, he recently rebuilt and

remodeled his garage and bathroom. Instead of the highest quality
contractor, he went for the cheapest and lowest bid, with predictable
problems and over-runs. When I suggested this might be a bit
hypocritical, he got very angry claiming he couldn't afford the best.
Welcome to where theory meets reality.

Your friend is a Democrat?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ulysses]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0068d8a4$0$24236$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
It's a motor and a heat element.

Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
"crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
10^9.

LMOA.

> Sylvia.

 

On Sun, 31 May 2009 10:30:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid
wrote:

Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.

Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail.

A typical mid-range car stereo that sells for around $200 costs less
than $2 to manufacture. Everything else is marketing and markups.

 

[Bob Larter]

Ulysses wrote:

I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

Buy a Canon. All three of mine[0] are well past their warranty, & are
still going strong. (Including the original batteries!)

[0] An S30 digicam, an EOS-10D & an EOS-1Dmk2.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

salty@dog.com wrote:

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com
wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
- and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
time base is used.
I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
adequate.
It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.

Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually
results in the appliance going to the landfill.

Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.

Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.

In theory, sure.

Yes, there
are some that are done properly!

I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:00:02 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com> wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:

Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
It's a motor and a heat element.
Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
"crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
10^9.

Jeez. I haven't run into that one in person, but it wouldn't surprise
me. The current craze for insane amounts of megapixels in digicams with
toy lenses is a very similar problem.

Reminds me of DVM's with 3 1/2 digit readouts and 1% accuracy. The last
digit is just noise.

Exactly. And don't get me started on the low ohms ranges of those meters...

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[iws]

"Ulysses" <therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h011kp$cut$1@news.eternal-september.org...
|
| "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
| news:a1f5255e0rei6pjht4skkig6od61is9nue@4ax.com...
| > On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
| > wrote:
| >
| > >Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
| > >price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
| > >to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
| >
| > Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
| > board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
| > and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
| > in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
| > component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
| > these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
| > make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
| > the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
| > has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
| > various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
| > level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.
| >
| > Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
| > product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
| > consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
| > warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
| > compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
| > quality. Sounds like a plan.
|
| I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
| the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the
first
| time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended
up
| needing it.

Buy it with a credit card that extends the mfgr's warranty by up to an
additional year and forget the "extended warranty."

 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:07:28 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com>
wrote:

salty@dog.com wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com
wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
- and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
time base is used.
I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
adequate.
It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.

Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually
results in the appliance going to the landfill.

Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.

Oh, I've seen plenty with a motor that stopped. Regardless, mechanical
timers are a glaring weak spot in appliances.

Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.

In theory, sure.

Yes, there
are some that are done properly!

I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.

Take a look at a Fisher & Paykel. When they designed it, they started
with a clean sheet of paper. They didn't just slap a few blinking
lights on a conventional washing machine.

 

[JB]

"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94-8895-55f7cf95c913@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

The majority are brainwashed to need a new one every 2 years without
question. Any company that builds to last more than 2 years will be
competing with itself and others and will fail because no one will pay twice
as much for a 4 year old model. Sure it is wrong to generate so much waste,
but you go out of business first, OK?

 

[Dave]

"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94-8895-55f7cf95c913@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE
these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned
obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines.
That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So,
they design an electronics board with a finite lifespan, produce a finite
number of spares at the time of the original production run, and when those
spares are gone that machine is junk. Maybe that board is repairable, but
the labor involved to fix it is huge. Maybe they've stuck a proprietary IC
or 2 on there which fails so it CAN'T be fixed no way no how.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Dave" <dspear99ca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...

"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94-8895-55f7cf95c913@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.

 

[stan]

On May 31, 1:07 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

It can be tougher!

If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!

Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.

They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!

Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.

Sounds like the epitaph for GMC! We have neighbours who have
persistently bought Chevrolet/GMC pickups an a couple of mid-size GMC
cars during the last 30 years we have lived in same area.

The Chevs. a) Don't last as long as our Nissans. b) Take more time/
cost for repairs. And we are not talking heavy commercial/contractor
usage of the Chevrolet products, just back and forth on paved roads to
work.

In fact our smaller Nissan/Toyota pickups were used for commercial
catering work, carrying heavy loads of dishes etc. on a weekly daily
basis in all weathers.

Since both our neighbours and ourselves have helped each other do many
of the repairs we each have had an inside look at what has worn/needed
repairs on both types of vehicles.

But our more recent (Japanese) vehicles have been assembled/
manufactured in the USA and contain more 'Made in Mexico' or 'Made in
Taiwan' parts and have not had the quality of of our earlier vehicles
made entirely in say, Japan.

Interesting how the Japanese manufacturing went from tin-pot junk in
the 1930 to the high quality of today. A relative recently bought a
nine year old Lexus; a beautiful car!

Seems to prove that cost and profit and high short term bonuses for
auto executives were not the best policy?

And when it comes to home repairs/renovations etc. would one not
expect domestic appliance to last at least as long/longer than a well
used motor vehicle? However In one mid-eastern country we bought and
used a full size US manufactured clothes dryer that was of excellent
quality and capability, better than Italian and other European made
products.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where
you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat
fee.
They had some unskilled labor to open up the case, throw out the
electronics
and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost
to customers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole
exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them.

30 years (or so) ago, GE simply replaced defective electronics with a
refurbished unit. The unit you sent in was placed in a pile, to be repaired
at a later date. This probably worked well, if a technician worked on four
or five identical units at the same time.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Dave" <dspear99ca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...
"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94-8895-55f7cf95c913@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.

I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

William

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-dufas@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:h04498$ndv$1@news.eternal->

I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine.
If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or
more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do
the repairs and test out the finished results.
I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the
smd or other components that take special equipment to work on.

 

[Bob Larter]

William R. Walsh wrote:

Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[The Daring Dufas]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-dufas@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:h04498$ndv$1@news.eternal-
I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine.
If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or
more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do
the repairs and test out the finished results.
I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the
smd or other components that take special equipment to work on.


I tell customers all the time, this may not be economical to

repair unless you are very attached to it. Sometimes a special
piece of equipment is worth $85.00 per hour to them.

TDD

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Bob Larter wrote:

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.

Dozens of them.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Steve Barker]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.