Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?

[Sylvia Else]

William R. Walsh wrote:

Hi!

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.

When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find myself
in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their failure to
support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare control
panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Bob Larter wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that, you
could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd probably win.

Well, that would still be suing them.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere fact
that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

Sylvia.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere
fact that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

The US has laws (derived from British common law) that protect customers,
and also specify the minimum time parts have to be available. These laws
have been weakened over the past 20 years, and are generally not
well-enforced, anyway.

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts, and the importer couldn't
supply them, I pointed out their legal obligations, and Silverlit USA was
quick to swap out my unit for a new one. (I had threatened to complain to
the FTC.)

Foreign companies apparently aren't aware of their obligations. If you can't
stock spare parts (or at least sub-assemblies), you shouldn't be doing
business in another country.

 

[msg]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

<snip>

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts...

<snip>

Which one? X-UFO?

Michael

 

[William Sommerwerck]

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts...

Which one? X-UFO?

Yup.

The lady who handles customer relations -- she seems to be the only person
in Silverlit USA! -- was so nice I was embarrassed "putting the screws to
her". But the unit had stopped working, and they couldn't provide any of the
parts likely to fix it. I couldn't very well toss the thing in the trash.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I don't know what happened to that GE oven. Maybe it was scrapped.
They told me everything goes back to the manufactuer. It went back
with a little "extra" -- a note taped to the inside top of the cabinet
with the burned relay firmly affixed.

Did they read it? Do they care? I have no idea. It made me feel better
to have left it there, if for no other reason than its discovery would
tell them that someone, somewhere really wanted to fix it instead of
just buying another.

What's pathetic about this is that the dealer has to provide a service --
out of simple courtesy to the customer -- that the manufacturer should
supply.

Given how cheap such products are, and how little profit the retailers make,
manufacturers should be willing to absorb the costs of providing cheap
out-of-warranty repairs.

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find
myself in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their
failure to support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare
control panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

The control panel could have been purchased and the cost was not all
together unreasonable at the time. (It has since gone up.)

However, I was not about to discard an otherwise *working* panel for
want of a relay.

Taking them to court over something like this would surely involve
more of an expenditure than replacing the oven. As it is, I complained
to Best Buy and they did not give me any static about returning the
oven to them, selecting another and paying the difference.

I don't know what happened to that GE oven. Maybe it was scrapped.
They told me everything goes back to the manufactuer. It went back
with a little "extra"--a note taped to the inside top of the cabinet
with the burned relay firmly affixed.

Did they read it? Do they care? I have no idea. It made me feel better
to have left it there, if for no other reason than its discovery would
tell them that someone, somewhere really wanted to fix it instead of
just buying another.

William

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:03:16 -0700, "Ulysses"
<therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more.

Mechanical calculators and slide rules are still available for those
that fear electronics. I have several of each.

All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty.

Worse. Some stuff is actually designed for a specific lifetime. It
is possible to predict the average lifetime of components by knowing
their operation parameters, thermal cycles, and specs. For example:
<http://www.cde.com/tech/thermalapplet.pdf>
I've seen minimalist design, where the voltage ratings on most of the
caps are intentionally selected so that they all fail at roughly the
same time.

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.

For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it.

Most buyers of extended warranties never use them. It's a cash cow
for the dealers and manufacturers selling them. The initial infant
mortality failures are covered under the manufacturers warranty.
Unless the device is suffering from severe quality issues that have a
delayed reaction, such as bogus low-ESR electrolytics, you should not
see any problems until long after the product is obsolete.

Incidentally, the average lifetime of a cell phone is currently 18
months. The typical laptop is 2 years. The typical desktop about 3-5
years (depending on brand). Why bother designing anything to last
longer?

I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

My mechanical calculator and slide rules will work longer than your
Brownie. I find it difficult to determine quality on initial
inspection. I have to tear something apart, look inside at the
components used, get some idea as to how it's built, and play with it
a while to see if it does everything it claims. Tearing apart a DVD
player or camera in the store is usually discouraged. I usually grab
the FCC ID number, and look at the inside photos on the FCC site. I
also read reviews and user experiences. Despite this, I still manage
to have problems. I have about 4 cameras and *ALL* of them have been
either repaired under warranty, or had some fundamental defect that
required a class action suit and subsequent warranty extension. I
don't do much better with computers. Everything requires firmware and
driver updates. Some are so bad, that the vendor had to extend the
warranty for free (BGA failure):
<http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01087277&lc=en&cc=us>

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to
make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better
components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more
lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that
it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay
double for better quality? Most people won't.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:50:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:03:16 -0700, "Ulysses"
therealulysses@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more.

Mechanical calculators and slide rules are still available for those
that fear electronics. I have several of each.

All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty.

Worse. Some stuff is actually designed for a specific lifetime. It
is possible to predict the average lifetime of components by knowing
their operation parameters, thermal cycles, and specs. For example:
http://www.cde.com/tech/thermalapplet.pdf
I've seen minimalist design, where the voltage ratings on most of the
caps are intentionally selected so that they all fail at roughly the
same time.

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.

Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's
posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The
manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.


<snip>

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to
make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better
components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more
lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that
it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay
double for better quality? Most people won't.

Many people already do. Some people shop for chinese junk at walmart,
and some go to better stores and buy higher quality merchandise. In
many cases, I pay 200%, 300% or more, over what a cheap product costs,
because I want to get something better. You'll note that you can also
buy a new car for $12,000 or $120,000. One of them may be somewhat
better quality.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:36:42 -0400, salty@dog.com wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:50:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.


Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's
posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The
manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.

Which state?

In the California, such things are covered under the Business and
Professional Code. Section 9800-9879 for Electronic and Appliance
Repair Dealers.
<http://law.justia.com/california/codes/bpc.html> (Chapter 20)
Consumer warranties are covered under the Calif Civil Code at:
<http://law.justia.com/california/codes/civ.html> Title 1.7
Nothing on warranty reimbursement rates for electronics.
There were substantial changes to the code in 2005, which protected
vehicle, snowmobile, lawn mower, and powered machinery repair shops
and which do require manufacturer reimbursement at shop rates.

However, I've been out of the warranty repair biz for about 12 years
and have not been paying attention to the latest laws. Unless I
missed something (a real possibility) and in my reading of the
aforementioned sections, California warranty reimbursements are still
set by contract with the manufacturer.

Fun reading:
<http://www.warrantyweek.com>
Note the drop in warranty rates (as percent of sales) from 2007 to
2008. Ouch. There's quite a bit on extended warranties and terms
further down the page.
"Extended warranties generate in the vicinity of $15 billion per
year in premiums paid by consumers. Only half of that total goes
to the actual administrators and underwriters of the policies,
however. Roughly half is kept by retailers and dealers as sales
commissions."
Now you know why dealers just love to sell extended warranties.
They're all profit for the dealer.

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to
make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better
components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more
lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that
it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay
double for better quality? Most people won't.

Many people already do. Some people shop for chinese junk at walmart,
and some go to better stores and buy higher quality merchandise. In
many cases, I pay 200%, 300% or more, over what a cheap product costs,
because I want to get something better. You'll note that you can also
buy a new car for $12,000 or $120,000. One of them may be somewhat
better quality.

I also do so, but only when I can afford it. In areas that I'm
familiar with (electronics), I can usually distinguish between junk
and quality. Even so, it's often difficult and I've made my share of
bad purchases. I must also admit that I prefer to buy used equipment
and vehicles, which are in a different class with no warranty. (Ok,
I'm cheap and proud of it.) One huge advantage of buying used is that
the product has been around long enough to develop a reputation. If
there are any problems, the complaints will be all over the internet.

One problem with "Chinese junk" is finding an alternative. So many US
industries have been "offshored" that finding a domestic manufactured
equivalent (or better) has been difficult or impossible.

I must confess to throwing some money away by purchasing a used car
from a dealer about 5 months ago. I overpaid because I wanted a
no-hassle, no-problem, no-complications vehicle. I found one and
overpaid for it. The dealer offered some free oil changes and a 30
day warranty that wasn't used. It was a good buy.

In a past life, I helped design some consumer electronics. These
days, I still do some design, but mostly fix computers (because it's
easier). In product design, was not unusual to spend as much time and
effort on the package, cosmetics, industrial design, feel, and even
the smell, of the product, as with the contents. For example, I
worked on a radio that didn't sell well. The merchandising consultant
declared that this was because it didn't weigh enough. When faced
with multiple competing and superficially identical products, the
typical consumer will usually buy the heaviest. We then added some
cosmetic scrap iron and aluminum to the product to add nothing but
mass. After a color and model number change (new and improved) it
sold well.

Incidentally, I once worked for a manufacturer of marine radios.
Consumer Reports Magazine published a comparison of various
manufacturers radios. One of the competitors used the exact same
electronics as we did, but inside a different package. Otherwise,
they were identical. Consumer Reports gave them the grand prize,
while we were near the bottom of the list. So much for impartial
product testing and being able to distinguish between quality and
junk.




--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:55:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(...)

If you're in Europe, you get a free 2 year unlimited extended warranty
on everything:
<http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=487304>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[The Daring Dufas]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:36:42 -0400, salty@dog.com wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:50:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.

Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's
posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The
manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.

Which state?

In the California, such things are covered under the Business and
Professional Code. Section 9800-9879 for Electronic and Appliance
Repair Dealers.
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/bpc.html> (Chapter 20)
Consumer warranties are covered under the Calif Civil Code at:
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/civ.html> Title 1.7
Nothing on warranty reimbursement rates for electronics.
There were substantial changes to the code in 2005, which protected
vehicle, snowmobile, lawn mower, and powered machinery repair shops
and which do require manufacturer reimbursement at shop rates.

However, I've been out of the warranty repair biz for about 12 years
and have not been paying attention to the latest laws. Unless I
missed something (a real possibility) and in my reading of the
aforementioned sections, California warranty reimbursements are still
set by contract with the manufacturer.

Fun reading:
http://www.warrantyweek.com
Note the drop in warranty rates (as percent of sales) from 2007 to
2008. Ouch. There's quite a bit on extended warranties and terms
further down the page.
"Extended warranties generate in the vicinity of $15 billion per
year in premiums paid by consumers. Only half of that total goes
to the actual administrators and underwriters of the policies,
however. Roughly half is kept by retailers and dealers as sales
commissions."
Now you know why dealers just love to sell extended warranties.
They're all profit for the dealer.

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to
make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better
components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more
lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that
it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay
double for better quality? Most people won't.
Many people already do. Some people shop for chinese junk at walmart,
and some go to better stores and buy higher quality merchandise. In
many cases, I pay 200%, 300% or more, over what a cheap product costs,
because I want to get something better. You'll note that you can also
buy a new car for $12,000 or $120,000. One of them may be somewhat
better quality.

I also do so, but only when I can afford it. In areas that I'm
familiar with (electronics), I can usually distinguish between junk
and quality. Even so, it's often difficult and I've made my share of
bad purchases. I must also admit that I prefer to buy used equipment
and vehicles, which are in a different class with no warranty. (Ok,
I'm cheap and proud of it.) One huge advantage of buying used is that
the product has been around long enough to develop a reputation. If
there are any problems, the complaints will be all over the internet.

One problem with "Chinese junk" is finding an alternative. So many US
industries have been "offshored" that finding a domestic manufactured
equivalent (or better) has been difficult or impossible.

I must confess to throwing some money away by purchasing a used car
from a dealer about 5 months ago. I overpaid because I wanted a
no-hassle, no-problem, no-complications vehicle. I found one and
overpaid for it. The dealer offered some free oil changes and a 30
day warranty that wasn't used. It was a good buy.

In a past life, I helped design some consumer electronics. These
days, I still do some design, but mostly fix computers (because it's
easier). In product design, was not unusual to spend as much time and
effort on the package, cosmetics, industrial design, feel, and even
the smell, of the product, as with the contents. For example, I
worked on a radio that didn't sell well. The merchandising consultant
declared that this was because it didn't weigh enough. When faced
with multiple competing and superficially identical products, the
typical consumer will usually buy the heaviest. We then added some
cosmetic scrap iron and aluminum to the product to add nothing but
mass. After a color and model number change (new and improved) it
sold well.

Incidentally, I once worked for a manufacturer of marine radios.
Consumer Reports Magazine published a comparison of various
manufacturers radios. One of the competitors used the exact same
electronics as we did, but inside a different package. Otherwise,
they were identical. Consumer Reports gave them the grand prize,
while we were near the bottom of the list. So much for impartial
product testing and being able to distinguish between quality and
junk.

30 years ago, I worked for Tandy Repair, the repair division
of Radio Shack. Back then, the Asian electronics were made in
Japan and some stuff was pretty good and some was cheap junk.
Different Japanese companies supplied units. I remember Uniden
and GRE as some of the main suppliers and if I remember right,
some things came from Panasonic. I don't recall if there was
any gear coming out of China. Heck, now everything is Chinese
and I'm seeing a lot of failures due to lack of quality at the
component and board level.

TDD

 

[Bob Larter]

Sylvia Else wrote:

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.

When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find myself
in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their failure to
support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare control
panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

Ayup. That's pretty much how it works. Back when I worked for Canon,
that sort of situation used to crop up regularly.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:47 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com> wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much as replacing
the laptop.

Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:16 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com
wrote:

Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.

I beg to differ. If you buy replacement panels from the manufacturer,
then one can easily pay as much as the laptop (for low end models
only).

Yes, those are the spares I'm talking about.
Refurbed main boards or third party LCD panels can be a lot cheaper. Of
course you run the risk of getting a dud PCB or an incompatible LCD.

However, if you purchase them from numerous vendors on the web
or on eBay, the prices are typically $60-$200 depending on size,
new/used, and oddity. I've repaired many broken LCD displays this way
with few difficulties beyond ordering the wrong panel and misplacing
the screws. Same with the even cheaper LCD inverters, which are a
more common problem. Depending on difficulty, I usually add 1-2 hours
labour at $75/hr onto the bill with the panel and parts at cost.
Unless the laptop is junk, it's still economical to repair laptops.
(Note: I can't say the same for fixing failed BGA chips on laptop
motherboards).

I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement
boards, case parts, modules, and pieces that comprise a machine. I
haven't done this for perhaps 8 years, but last time I checked, I
could build an Apple G3 laptop for only 10 times the cost of a new G3
laptop. PC's aren't much better, where I vaguely recall an HP
something laptop parts collection also costing 10 times the
replacement parts cost (not including assembly and repair labour).

Long ago, I worked for a radio manufactory. We sold a $0.50
transistor for about $5.00. Most of the added cost was picking,
boxing, shipping, insurance, handling, billing, etc. I once
calculated that the cost of shipping an empty box (no contents) was
about $75. It's probably higher today. I convinced sales to only
sell small transistors in lots of 25 pieces. The delivered price was
the same as a single piece price, $5.00. Later, we were selling 100
piece parts kits to the dealers for not much more. In other words,
the parts were worthless, but the overhead is where the money was
hidden. A new LCD panel from Dell, might be worth only $150, but cost
perhaps $400 because of handing, stocking, flooring, inventory,
packaging, executive compensation package, etc.

Ayup.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

Sylvia Else wrote:

Bob Larter wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that,
you could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd
probably win.


Well, that would still be suing them.

Theoretically, yes, but in practice it's totally unlike dragging someone
into a court for a civil case. No lawyers, just the consumer & a rep for
the seller. And there's no appeal.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere fact
that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

Speaking as someone who spent years doing warranty service work, most
manufacturers will come to the party if something fails just outside the
warranty, if the purchaser sticks to their guns.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere
fact that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

The US has laws (derived from British common law) that protect customers,
and also specify the minimum time parts have to be available. These laws
have been weakened over the past 20 years, and are generally not
well-enforced, anyway.

No, they're not And as somebody pointed out upthread, they often get
around it by only stocking sub-assemblies at huge prices.

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts, and the importer couldn't
supply them, I pointed out their legal obligations, and Silverlit USA was
quick to swap out my unit for a new one. (I had threatened to complain to
the FTC.)

Foreign companies apparently aren't aware of their obligations. If you can't
stock spare parts (or at least sub-assemblies), you shouldn't be doing
business in another country.

I don't know what the rules about that are in the USA, but here, the
responsibility falls to the local reseller.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

About 15 years ago I bought a discontinued made-in-the-U-S-of-A Litton
microwave. I put it aside when I moved to a condo (as the new kitchen had a
GE "vent hood" microwave that's given perfect service. But the Litton was
solidly made, and on those rare occsions when I've had to schlep a microwave
to a party or dinner, it's worked fine.

In fairness, the Litton and other American microwaves were probably
"overbuilt" -- the quality level was much higher than it had to be, even for
a product intended to last 20 years or more. The quality of the non-American
GE appears to be "about right".

Canon used to build their laser printer engines (HP, Brother, Apple)
that well. Not any more.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

salty@dog.com wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:50:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
[...]
However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.


Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's
posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The
manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.

Back when I ran a Toshiba-authorised service centre, the warranty
service rate was about $35 for 20-30 minute job. Probably 3/4s of our
work was warranty work, & I managed to do it at a profit.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:55:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:36:42 -0400, salty@dog.com wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:50:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer.
Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of
business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do
in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work.
The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.


Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's
posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The
manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.

Which state?

In the California, such things are covered under the Business and
Professional Code. Section 9800-9879 for Electronic and Appliance
Repair Dealers.
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/bpc.html> (Chapter 20)
Consumer warranties are covered under the Calif Civil Code at:
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/civ.html> Title 1.7
Nothing on warranty reimbursement rates for electronics.
There were substantial changes to the code in 2005, which protected
vehicle, snowmobile, lawn mower, and powered machinery repair shops
and which do require manufacturer reimbursement at shop rates.

However, I've been out of the warranty repair biz for about 12 years
and have not been paying attention to the latest laws. Unless I
missed something (a real possibility) and in my reading of the
aforementioned sections, California warranty reimbursements are still
set by contract with the manufacturer.

Fun reading:
http://www.warrantyweek.com
Note the drop in warranty rates (as percent of sales) from 2007 to
2008. Ouch. There's quite a bit on extended warranties and terms
further down the page.
"Extended warranties generate in the vicinity of $15 billion per
year in premiums paid by consumers. Only half of that total goes
to the actual administrators and underwriters of the policies,
however. Roughly half is kept by retailers and dealers as sales
commissions."
Now you know why dealers just love to sell extended warranties.
They're all profit for the dealer.

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to
make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better
components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more
lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that
it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay
double for better quality? Most people won't.

Many people already do. Some people shop for chinese junk at walmart,
and some go to better stores and buy higher quality merchandise. In
many cases, I pay 200%, 300% or more, over what a cheap product costs,
because I want to get something better. You'll note that you can also
buy a new car for $12,000 or $120,000. One of them may be somewhat
better quality.

I also do so, but only when I can afford it. In areas that I'm
familiar with (electronics), I can usually distinguish between junk
and quality. Even so, it's often difficult and I've made my share of
bad purchases. I must also admit that I prefer to buy used equipment
and vehicles, which are in a different class with no warranty. (Ok,
I'm cheap and proud of it.) One huge advantage of buying used is that
the product has been around long enough to develop a reputation. If
there are any problems, the complaints will be all over the internet.

One problem with "Chinese junk" is finding an alternative. So many US
industries have been "offshored" that finding a domestic manufactured
equivalent (or better) has been difficult or impossible.

I must confess to throwing some money away by purchasing a used car
from a dealer about 5 months ago. I overpaid because I wanted a
no-hassle, no-problem, no-complications vehicle. I found one and
overpaid for it. The dealer offered some free oil changes and a 30
day warranty that wasn't used. It was a good buy.

In a past life, I helped design some consumer electronics. These
days, I still do some design, but mostly fix computers (because it's
easier). In product design, was not unusual to spend as much time and
effort on the package, cosmetics, industrial design, feel, and even
the smell, of the product, as with the contents. For example, I
worked on a radio that didn't sell well. The merchandising consultant
declared that this was because it didn't weigh enough. When faced
with multiple competing and superficially identical products, the
typical consumer will usually buy the heaviest. We then added some
cosmetic scrap iron and aluminum to the product to add nothing but
mass. After a color and model number change (new and improved) it
sold well.

Incidentally, I once worked for a manufacturer of marine radios.
Consumer Reports Magazine published a comparison of various
manufacturers radios. One of the competitors used the exact same
electronics as we did, but inside a different package. Otherwise,
they were identical. Consumer Reports gave them the grand prize,
while we were near the bottom of the list. So much for impartial
product testing and being able to distinguish between quality and
junk.

Consumer Reports is a fraud. They do that sort of thing on a regular
basis. They are either grossly incompetent or completely crooked. Take
your pick, those are the only two choices.


I lived in Capitola and in SC in the early 70's. NIce area, or it was
back then.