Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?

[Smitty Two]

In article
<9eb2bcb8-db5b-44e5-95a7-5f94be347e89@r16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
trader4@optonline.net wrote:

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

Dammit. Now you've gone and poked Tom, so he'll get up from his nap, and
he'll go and poke Bud, and we'll have another 75 posts on *that* topic.

 

[GregS]

In article <9eb2bcb8-db5b-44e5-95a7-5f94be347e89@r16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Jun 3, 9:08=A0am, Steve Barker <ichasetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment wit=
h
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still ma=
de.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least i=
n the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based co=
ntrols.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg(494x69=
1,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of =
a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level=
is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic contro=
ller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens =
have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a=
dead
control panel.
I have, several times.

=A0 =A0Dozens of them.

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. =A0AND if it did, i'd ge=
t
out another $69 and buy a new one.


Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

When I moved into my new old house, a supressor was installed
on the electric meter. I did not want to pay for the service and didn't.
I wonder if they took it off ?

I work on stuff all the time where spills will take
out the ecectronics. They build it that way.
Centrifuges and shaker tables in mind.

greg

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

I have, several times.
   Dozens of them.

I probably should have qualified this a bit more. I wasn't saying
"this never happens", only that it seems to be rare. And I have seen
at least one where the display quit working, although the oven could
be used anyway. So I didn't count that one.

I've also noticed that other parts of the oven are typically what go
bad first...things like fans, stirrer motors, relays, the odd old
tired fuse and sometimes the magnetron.

William

 

On Jun 3, 9:08 am, Steve Barker <ichasetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg(494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.

   Dozens of them.

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason.  AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

 

[Ron]

William R. Walsh wrote:

I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

 

On May 31, 11:58 am, "Ulysses" <therealulys...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"brassplyer" <brasspl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:b8c4da7a-c487-4d94-8895-55f7cf95c913@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace.  The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt.  The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible.  

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps. The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.

The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance.  Instead they get a bad reputation.

 

[GregS]

In article <06KdnegxYo4XL7vXnZ2dnUVZ8lydnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.

greg

 

[Ron]

GregS wrote:

In article <06KdnegxYo4XL7vXnZ2dnUVZ8lydnZ2d@bt.com>, Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.

Well, mechanical timers fail also, usually the coil fails in 'Crouzet
type' motor driven ones. or the microswitches go intermittent. They can
often be ressurected.

Ron(UK)

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

trader4@optonline.net wrote:

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps.

Bullshit. low currents, yes, but you need to read some datasheets. I
worked at a manufacturer of top of the line telemetry equipment. Traces
that are very thin are prone to stress cracks. My specialty was the
embedded controller computer board we built in house, and they had to be
reliable. They controlled the equipment NASA uses to track their
launches, and all their satellites.

The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.

I'm happy that I never had to work with you. A washer or dryer is a
damp environment, with continuous vibration, while in use. Potting will
keep most of the moisture away, but that can cause SMD components to be
pulled off the board. A sealed container is better, but can add to the
vibration problems, due to the extra weight.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Mark Lloyd]

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
<ichasetrains@hotmail.com> wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

 

[msg]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.



And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.

Michael

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

msg wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.



And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.

What do you expect from China? Quality, good design, or a low
price? You can't have all three.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
ichasetrains@hotmail.com> wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?

You would be lucky if it lasted 23 weeks.




--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Smitty Two]

In article <cpqdneD1QbWt9rrXnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@posted.cpinternet>,
msg <msg@_cybertheque.org_> wrote:

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.

Michael

Ah, interesting. How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?

 

[William Sommerwerck]

How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?

Look at the top of the oven cavity. If you see a "fan" in the hole, that's
the stirrer.

Some ovens have the output on the bottom, but that's uncommon, as far as I
know.

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were
worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you
didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside.

My mother bought the world's cheapest GE microwave and it lasted for a
few months past the warranty before dying in an interesting way. The
magnetron was the only thing that would start. Light, turntable and
fan remained dark. This is a good way to cook more than the food in
the oven.

I had a look and found a relay had desoldered itself from the board.
Put it back, oven springs back to life and things are good. For about
a month or two it worked. The relay was having none of that and
decided that if it would not get out of work by leaving the board, it
would turn to coal inside instead.

I was astounded that the GE oven had a service literature packet
inside it. Not a really good one, but enough to figure it out without
excessive exploration.

I got mad and drug a 60+ pound Litton oven out of storage only to find
that it worked *perfectly*. 30 years old and it works great. Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

I chose a Panasonic Inverter based oven as a replacement. (My mother
did not like the appearance of the Litton monster. Never mind that
*she* bought it.) Despite having heard the odd bad thing here on the
group, I know people who have had these for many years. And it is a
*great* oven.

William

 

[William Sommerwerck]

The GE microwave that came with my condo has been running daily (though not
heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems.

It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's
not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable,
cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise,
companies would likely stop manufacturing it.

 

[Bob Larter]

Steve Barker wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still
made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least
in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based
controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthelaundry/bigpics/newwasher.jpg
(494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water
level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic
controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens
have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with
a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

Safety interlock switches & catches go bad all the time. My own high-end
National switch-mode uwave oven snapped a door catch while it was still
under warranty, but it was just before xmas, so I repaired it myself.
(Diassembled the door, glued the broken catch back together, cut up a
steel plate the same shape as the catch as a strengthener, & glued it to
the catch. It's been working perfectly ever since.)
The uwave at my office stops cooking every now & then. It fires back up
again if you push on the handle, so one of the uswitches is obviously a
little out of position. I haven't bothered fixing that one.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Sylvia Else]

William R. Walsh wrote:

Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.