What sucks about flux

[Chris Carlen]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:33:38 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Chris,

It is lead-free solder with a melting point of 217C, cored with
activated rosin flux. CASTIN alloy from Aim, with composition
Sn96.5Ag2.5Cu0.5Sb0.5
Antimony:
http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/antimony.html

This whole ROHS is typical overblown knee jerk legislation, probably
concocted by people who know little about the long term impact of their
actions. Who knows, maybe 10-20 years from now they have to go through
their "oh s..t" phase when miscarriage rates jump up or other effects
happen.

Wonder what long term exposure to antimony does to your brain ?

Probably not much good.

Sn95Sb5 alloy is currently approved for potable water systems, so I
would expect that means that despite the known toxicity of Sb, that
likely leaching mechanisms within water systems do not yield a hazardous
amount of Sb, in contrast to Pb.

The fact that it's only 5% Sb may help too.

So with the Aim CASTIN alloy, and its 0.5% Sb content, I find it hard to
believe that this is anything to worry about.

Especially considering that the RoHS regulation is based upon the
hypothetical scenario that someday Pb might leach out of a landfill and
poison some water table. But has this ever been actually documented to
occur?

I calculated that I'd have to eat about 20g of CASTIN solder, and have
it dissolve completely to get aan acutely toxic dose of Sb. But of
course, that amount of Sn and Ag would probably be approaching toxicity
as well.


Good day!



--
_______________________________________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and "BOGUS" from email address to reply.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:01:46 -0700, Chris Carlen
<crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:33:38 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Chris,

It is lead-free solder with a melting point of 217C, cored with
activated rosin flux. CASTIN alloy from Aim, with composition
Sn96.5Ag2.5Cu0.5Sb0.5
Antimony:
http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/antimony.html

This whole ROHS is typical overblown knee jerk legislation, probably
concocted by people who know little about the long term impact of their
actions. Who knows, maybe 10-20 years from now they have to go through
their "oh s..t" phase when miscarriage rates jump up or other effects
happen.

Wonder what long term exposure to antimony does to your brain ?


Probably not much good.

Sn95Sb5 alloy is currently approved for potable water systems, so I
would expect that means that despite the known toxicity of Sb, that
likely leaching mechanisms within water systems do not yield a hazardous
amount of Sb, in contrast to Pb.

The fact that it's only 5% Sb may help too.

So with the Aim CASTIN alloy, and its 0.5% Sb content, I find it hard to
believe that this is anything to worry about.

Especially considering that the RoHS regulation is based upon the
hypothetical scenario that someday Pb might leach out of a landfill and
poison some water table. But has this ever been actually documented to
occur?

I calculated that I'd have to eat about 20g of CASTIN solder, and have
it dissolve completely to get aan acutely toxic dose of Sb. But of
course, that amount of Sn and Ag would probably be approaching toxicity
as well.


Good day!

Antimony is a fairly positive laxitive. Back in the middle ages, a
solid lump of antimony was used as a reusable laxative tablet.

Ick.

John

 

[Joerg]

Hello Graham,

It has been suggested that to 'evade' RoHS, all a PC mobo has to do is
ensure that an integrated ethernet port is included. I bet that'll be what
happens too.

Yep, after legislation like that all kinds of tricks will be played and
lobbying will intensify. I wonder how it will be when Europe is
confronted with the first batches of electronic products that fall apart
when someone sneezes. And when the first gray market web sites pop up
where people can buy "the good old stuff".

I've never seen one of those ( lead tiles ) . Poles are often mounted on a
chimney or maybe otherwise to the brick ( or other ) structure.

You need these or plastic varieties (which often don't last) to make a
clean penetration through the roof line. Chimney mounting is frowned
upon and also quickly degrades the antenna, especially if you have an
oil or coal furnace.

Lead is used for 'flashing' on roofs though. And in roof 'gulleys' and
'valleys'.The only stuff that lasts.

And I could bet that this isn't regulated, huh?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Jim,

We have just been through one of those routines with MTBE.

Which, AIUI, goes out of production very soon.

Yes but it's one of those brain products of overzealous regulators who
could not wait. Now the damage is done since it has leached into the
ground water.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Barry Lennox]

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:20:46 +0200, Klaus Bahner
<Klaus.Bahner@ieee.org> wrote:

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

Car batteries are not ending up in the waste generated by households. In
fact there exists a well established and well functioning recycling
industry for car batteries. In some countries you even have to pay a
significant deposit when buying a new battery, which is returned once
you return the old battery to the dealer for recycling.

And where it has not worked in the past, and car batteries have been
dumped, there has been no evidence of lead leaching out.

There are two well-documented studies (One a municipal tip in
California, the other near an old lead mine in Colorado) where the EPA
leapt in, cowboy fashion, and started testing as they "knew" that the
lead would have leached out in massive quantities. They were wrong.

Bear in mind that in some cities, drinking water is still delivered
via lead pipes. Periodic blood tests of a small sample of residents
shows no lead being taken up.

RoHS' target is the large fraction of consumer electronics, which ends
up in the household garbage. You got a new cell phone, the old one is
thrown into the trash can. Your CD-ROM fails, you get a new one and the
old goes in the trash can. There are so many cheap, low cost, short
life-time, everyday electronic gadgets, that most of it, just ends up in
either the land fill or an incinerator like kitchen scrap.
Previous attempts to educate people to return their used electronics to
special collections sites have largely failed.

So where's the proof that lead leaches out of these things?

Actually,all the "Previous attempts to educate people" that I have
seen have been pathetic, and obviously doomed to fail. That is one
problem, and could be solved by putting into place a decent campaign,
aided by a small refundable deposit on such goods

Although lead free solder is certainly a manufacturing problem, I think RoHS is reasonable.
Basically I don't think that RoHS is a bigger manufacturing problem then
the introduction of say SMDs, BGAs, multilayer PCBs etc. It's annoying
fo now, but we will get used to it ...

I think RoHS is more about protecting the EU bureaucracy and assuring
jobs. One example, the last few TAC meetings have discussed the amount
of lead permitted in glass chandeliers. Well, now, how many of these
have you seen in landfills? My nephew spent much time and a huge
amount of money acquiring an old one for a historic home. Stupid boy,
he should just have gone to Brussels and picked one out of their
landfills!

In the 1930's they found that added lead controlled tin whiskers. It
appears that we may have to re-learn that.

What possible reason can the military, national telecomms
infrastructure, national security and a few other niche markets have
for exemptions. Maybe it's unreliability?

If this turns into a disaster in a few years, because of unintended
consequences, what are the names of the EU mandarins that will be held
accountable?

Barry Lennox

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:53:53 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
<rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:jencf1t5603ko8bralokg40ouh6m45ln6u@4ax.com...
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:08:00 -0700, Chris Carlen
crobc@BOGUSFIELD.sbcglobal.net> wrote:



You know of course that RoHS is so far only a Euro regulatory
boondoggle, and hasn't yet been manifested here in any binding manner.


It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in
Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

John
Key thing about RoHs, is that it is aimed at just one thing. Electronic
rubbish that goes into the waste tip. The assumption at present, is that
lead-acid batteries for example, already have a seperate 'bin' at the
dump. Similarly, lead solders used in plumbing, end up going to the metal
recycling yard, because the plumber can make money from the copper. They
did a fairly simple analysis of what contained lead in a typical council
dump, and most of it was the solder in cheap consumer electronics being
thrown away.
The 'idea' then makes sense. Whether it'll actually work, and the
implications on reliability as people try to cut corners on th substitute
materials, we will know in a few decades...

Best Wishes

Here in California, there's a 5-cent fee whenever you buy a soda/water
can or bottle, and it's refunded at collection centers. The result is
that there are *no* soda containers lying about... they're too
valuable. On Tuesday mornings, before the g-men come by, people pick
through our recycling bin in front of the house, and they remove all
the coke cans so they can get the payback.

If you did the same with electronic gadgets, they would be segregated
and could be disposed of with the batteries.

The crazy thing about ROHS is the requirement that any material inside
the assembly, no matter how small, must under 0.1% lead by weight. So
lead in the plating of one 0402 resistor can illegalize an entire
product. But lead in the ceramic itself, like a PLZT, is OK!

Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.

John

 

[Pooh Bear]

John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:53:53 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:jencf1t5603ko8bralokg40ouh6m45ln6u@4ax.com...
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:08:00 -0700, Chris Carlen
crobc@BOGUSFIELD.sbcglobal.net> wrote:



You know of course that RoHS is so far only a Euro regulatory
boondoggle, and hasn't yet been manifested here in any binding manner.


It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in
Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

John
Key thing about RoHs, is that it is aimed at just one thing. Electronic
rubbish that goes into the waste tip. The assumption at present, is that
lead-acid batteries for example, already have a seperate 'bin' at the
dump. Similarly, lead solders used in plumbing, end up going to the metal
recycling yard, because the plumber can make money from the copper. They
did a fairly simple analysis of what contained lead in a typical council
dump, and most of it was the solder in cheap consumer electronics being
thrown away.
The 'idea' then makes sense. Whether it'll actually work, and the
implications on reliability as people try to cut corners on th substitute
materials, we will know in a few decades...

Best Wishes


Here in California, there's a 5-cent fee whenever you buy a soda/water
can or bottle, and it's refunded at collection centers. The result is
that there are *no* soda containers lying about... they're too
valuable. On Tuesday mornings, before the g-men come by, people pick
through our recycling bin in front of the house, and they remove all
the coke cans so they can get the payback.

If you did the same with electronic gadgets, they would be segregated
and could be disposed of with the batteries.

The crazy thing about ROHS is the requirement that any material inside
the assembly, no matter how small, must under 0.1% lead by weight. So
lead in the plating of one 0402 resistor can illegalize an entire
product. But lead in the ceramic itself, like a PLZT, is OK!

Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.

There isn't anybody to enforce it.

It's a self-declaration job.

Graham

 

[Paul Burke]

Pooh Bear wrote:

Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.


There isn't anybody to enforce it.

It's a self-declaration job.

I noticed that they are now selling little pen- like things with reagent
pads, that change colour when lead is detected. But the main reason we
won't be putting leaded components in products is that we won't be able
to buy them.

Farnell have just obsoleted yet another batch of components I use, with
no notice of whether they'll be using the same manfacturer's lead free
replacements.

But people keep telling me that they've been leadfree in Japan for 10
years now. How do they cope?

Paul Burke

 

[Pooh Bear]

Paul Burke wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.


There isn't anybody to enforce it.

It's a self-declaration job.


I noticed that they are now selling little pen- like things with reagent
pads, that change colour when lead is detected. But the main reason we
won't be putting leaded components in products is that we won't be able
to buy them.

Farnell have just obsoleted yet another batch of components I use, with
no notice of whether they'll be using the same manfacturer's lead free
replacements.

But people keep telling me that they've been leadfree in Japan for 10
years now. How do they cope?

They're apparently using solders including bismuth that tolerate lead on the
component leads ( unlike lead free solders that don't use bismuth ) - or so
I'm told by someone who's had to apply for an exemption for their component
since it uses cadmium in it.

Graham

 

[Chris Carlen]

Pooh Bear wrote:

Paul Burke wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.

There isn't anybody to enforce it.

It's a self-declaration job.

I noticed that they are now selling little pen- like things with reagent
pads, that change colour when lead is detected. But the main reason we
won't be putting leaded components in products is that we won't be able
to buy them.

Farnell have just obsoleted yet another batch of components I use, with
no notice of whether they'll be using the same manfacturer's lead free
replacements.

But people keep telling me that they've been leadfree in Japan for 10
years now. How do they cope?

They're apparently using solders including bismuth that tolerate lead on the
component leads ( unlike lead free solders that don't use bismuth ) - or so
I'm told by someone who's had to apply for an exemption for their component
since it uses cadmium in it.

Graham

In my recent discussions with folks at Indium Corp about various
lead-free alloys, I thought they told me that it is Bi containing alloys
that have trouble with Pb. There is a BiPb eutectic that melts at 99C
or something like that. So the joint goes bad if allowed to abide near
that temp.

SAC type lead-free alloys are compatible with lead.


Good day!



--
_______________________________________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and "BOGUS" from email address to reply.

 

[Pooh Bear]

Chris Carlen wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
Paul Burke wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
Any news on the enforcement situation? Sounds tricky.

There isn't anybody to enforce it.

It's a self-declaration job.

I noticed that they are now selling little pen- like things with reagent
pads, that change colour when lead is detected. But the main reason we
won't be putting leaded components in products is that we won't be able
to buy them.

Farnell have just obsoleted yet another batch of components I use, with
no notice of whether they'll be using the same manfacturer's lead free
replacements.

But people keep telling me that they've been leadfree in Japan for 10
years now. How do they cope?

They're apparently using solders including bismuth that tolerate lead on the
component leads ( unlike lead free solders that don't use bismuth ) - or so
I'm told by someone who's had to apply for an exemption for their component
since it uses cadmium in it.

Graham

In my recent discussions with folks at Indium Corp about various
lead-free alloys, I thought they told me that it is Bi containing alloys
that have trouble with Pb. There is a BiPb eutectic that melts at 99C
or something like that. So the joint goes bad if allowed to abide near
that temp.

SAC type lead-free alloys are compatible with lead.

What you say rings a bell now. I've certainly read about that effect, didn't know
it was the bismuth alloys offhand.

I'll ask the guy who mentioned the Japanese again.

Graham

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:21:19 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:08:00 -0700, Chris Carlen
crobc@BOGUSFIELD.sbcglobal.net> wrote:



You know of course that RoHS is so far only a Euro regulatory
boondoggle, and hasn't yet been manifested here in any binding manner.


It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in
Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

It should be obvious big oil has their fingers in that pie.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Pooh Bear]

Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:21:19 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:08:00 -0700, Chris Carlen
crobc@BOGUSFIELD.sbcglobal.net> wrote:



You know of course that RoHS is so far only a Euro regulatory
boondoggle, and hasn't yet been manifested here in any binding manner.


It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in
Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

It should be obvious big oil has their fingers in that pie.

I don't perceive oil ( or motor ) industry influence to be as large a factor
in Europe as the USA.

Graham

 

[Paul Burke]

Pooh Bear wrote:

I don't perceive oil ( or motor ) industry influence to be as large a factor
in Europe as the USA.

Why do you think so much freight is carried about Europe by road? They
might not be as all- powerful as in the US, but they still pack more
punch than the Federation of Failed Businesses.

Paul Burke

 

[Frithiof Andreas Jensen]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:jencf1t5603ko8bralokg40ouh6m45ln6u@4ax.com...

It's interesting that they exempted the telecom industry, and that in
Europe most of the telecoms are owned by the government.

Do not mistake "Europe" and "France", like the French do!!

Something like 1% of the lead in commercial use is in electronics, and
that's in solid metal or glass, nearly insoluble forms. What are they
doing about car batteries, where massive amounts of nasty lead
compounds are present?

Replacing them with Sodium-Sulfur of course - for a much more impressive
performance in Pegeuot 507 and Citroen C3 (Ronson and Zippo ... bwahahahah
;-).

 

[Pooh Bear]

Paul Burke wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

I don't perceive oil ( or motor ) industry influence to be as large a factor
in Europe as the USA.

Why do you think so much freight is carried about Europe by road? They
might not be as all- powerful as in the US, but they still pack more
punch than the Federation of Failed Businesses.

In the UK, road freight is popular since the rail network was decimated by
Beeching in the 60s and - quite frankly - rail freight was never much promoted.

Since privatisation of the rail operating companies, I gather that UK rail freight
( mainly EWS railways ) has actually been on the increase.

Graham

 

[Fred Abse]

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:27:48 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Antimony is a fairly positive laxitive. Back in the middle ages, a
solid lump of antimony was used as a reusable laxative tablet.

If I realized I'd just eaten a lump of antimony, I think I'd shit myself,
too


--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:27:44 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

I don't perceive oil ( or motor ) industry influence to be as large a factor
in Europe as the USA.

Does this mean you don't perceive OI influence is as large a factor in
Europe as it is in the USA? Or it's not as large a factor in Europe as
the USA is? ;-P

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Pooh Bear]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:27:44 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

I don't perceive oil ( or motor ) industry influence to be as large a factor
in Europe as the USA.

Does this mean you don't perceive OI influence is as large a factor in
Europe as it is in the USA? Or it's not as large a factor in Europe as
the USA is? ;-P

Both. I don't perceive it to be - and I don't think it is either.

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frithiof Andreas,

Replacing them with Sodium-Sulfur of course - for a much more impressive
performance in Pegeuot 507 and Citroen C3 (Ronson and Zippo ... bwahahahah
;-).

Hey, nothing against Citroen. My 2CV was a good car. But it didn't have
a battery most of the time so I guess it already was RoHS compliant.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com