What is the purspose of pre-tinned wire?

Phil Allison · Apr 18, 2009

"Mr. Haney"

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does.

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

...... Phil

Mr. Haney · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:44:08 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

It has NOTHING to do with audio you retarded twit, and neither do I.

I never made ANY reference to audio EVER in ANY of my responses to
ANYONE.

I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear. I
do not expect a dope like you to have a clue, being that you are from a
place that gets all its military gear from its allies.

Phil Allison · Apr 18, 2009

"Mr. Haney the Halfwit "

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

It has NOTHING to do with audio

** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.

I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.

** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.

Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!

....... Phil

Van Chocstraw · Apr 18, 2009

Sandi wrote:

Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
not.

What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
cleaning.

Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
tinned?

Is cost really so different?

Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?

Is flexibility affected?

I guess they assume you do not need to cut it to length. It probably
solders easier or stay in a pinch connector better.

Archimedes' Lever · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:36:55 -0400, Van Chocstraw
<boobooililililil@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Sandi wrote:
Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
not.

What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
cleaning.

Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
tinned?

Is cost really so different?

Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?

Is flexibility affected?

I guess they assume you do not need to cut it to length. It probably
solders easier or stay in a pinch connector better.

Cinch type terminations is the proper term, Chocstraw retard.

Also a soldered wire does NOT get retained better in such a connection.

The solder "creeps" away and the connection becomes loose.

http://www.materialseducation.org/docs/new2007/15-Bunnell.pdf

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/creep.practical.pdf

Go troll somewhere else Chocstraw.

William Sommerwerck · Apr 18, 2009

One of the unmentioned uses is in kits. Tinned wire reduces the chance of a
bad connection made by someone inexperienced in soldering. (I didn't say it
eliminated the chance.)

Johannes · Apr 18, 2009

On 18 Apr 03:49, Mr. Haney wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:23:26 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:
Mr. Haney wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:49 +0100, Ian Bell
ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:
Sandi wrote:

Is it real "tin" that's used?

No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)

Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they
banned it ;-)

Cheers
Ian

Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the
idiots had to do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It
doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN
Plated Wire. Pretty simple.

SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly
from a shelf life POV.

I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap
won't even take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost
difference is negligible, if one weighs the added labor cost
of dealing with poor quality TPC, which nearly all of it is.

Tinned plated wire shouldn't have issues with solder how ever,
electro plated may which is normally used more in cases of
screw terminals and crimp fasteners.

Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder,
especially when it is inside teflon.

An even worse type is HV wire that is TPC on PTFE. It is
worth whatever the difference is to buy SPC, because THAT
ALWAYS takes solder.

Aren't these problems are surely to do with contamination of the
wire plating by the insulation rather than inherent
characteristics of the plating?

Worldclass Wire & Cable's catalogue has several charts comparing
the properties of the insulation including one on
fluoropolymers. However they don't seem to worry much about
soldering probably because maybe they presume their users
(usually military subcontractors) will clean the wire.

Tyrorex · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:53:17 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Mr. Haney"

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does.

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

..... Phil

I don't know Mr Haney or you but AFAICT he seems to write sensibly,
accurately and with some knowledge of what he is discussing. I'm
prepared to accept what he writes.

Could you cut the noise down please. Thank you.

Tyrorex · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:58:03 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
an insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by people less clever than me.

It has NOTHING to do with audio

** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.

I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.

** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.

Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!

...... Phil

Phil,

Seriously now, do you have borderline personality disorder?

Michael A. Terrell · Apr 18, 2009

Tyrorex wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:58:03 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
an insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by people less clever than me.

It has NOTHING to do with audio

** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.

I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.

** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.

Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!

...... Phil

Phil,

Seriously now, do you have borderline personality disorder?

He has severe problems. That is why most people just kill file him.
He either can't afford, or refuses to take his medication most of the
time. Once in a while he's lucid for a day or two, but it never lasts.

'Haney', on the other hand is one of a couple dozen sock puppets of
the Dimbulb troll. He is also known as 'Always Wrong' on the
sci.electronics.* newsgroups for his never ending strings of bad
advice. Most of the time he sounds like Phil, when he isn't taking his
medicine. Be prepared to see dimbulb reply to himself, and rant that he
is the smartest one on the newsgroup, and that he has done more for
humanity, blah, blah, blah...

Someone suggested a cage fight between the two, but nothing happened.

For those who don't know, or never saw the TV show 'Green Acres' 'Mr.
Haney' was the worlds dumbest con man.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Jim Thompson · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:14:02 +0100, Tyrorex <atomix@internet.doom>
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:58:03 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is
an insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by people less clever than me.

It has NOTHING to do with audio

** The ridiculous myth you are sprouting does.

I am referring to the days when I made RF chokes from Solid SPC wire.
And the prevalent use of it in military radios and other military gear.

** Means you have NO excuse for your COLOSSAL IGNORANCE.

Piss the HELL off - you stinking TROLL !!

...... Phil

Phil,

Seriously now, do you have borderline personality disorder?

Chris Street · Apr 18, 2009

Mr. Haney wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:30:45 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888@gmail.com wrote:

On Apr 17, 7:18 am, "Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
"Pilgrim" <pilg...@noemail.net> wrote in message

newsilgrim-AB916B.05415017042009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...

In article <gs9gt7$uk...@news.albasani.net>,
"Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
"Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?
Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
Steve Terry
Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
Chuck P.
Yes, Silver is one of the few metals that has a lower resistance than
copper,
but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
coverings.

Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,

Tarnish IS oxide, you dope. Silver oxidizes, it just doesn't grow a
crust like Copper does, regardless of whatever other elements it grabs
while doing it.

Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide. The tarnishing process is as
follows..

8Ag + 4HS(-) <---> 4Ag2S + 2H2 + 4e-

Oxygen in the form of a water film is required - silver will not tarnish
in dry air. This reaction mops up the electrons lost in the oxidation
process

O2 + 2H2O + 4e- <---> 4OH(-)

Although the reaction is a classical redox process the end product is
not an oxide - it is assuredly silver sulphide.

Since I'm sure there will be a deal of shouting from people about how
this is bollocks, I would point out I have a degree and masters in the
field and spent a lot of time researching silver adsorption reactions
for silver oxide cells and lead acids - I do know what the deal is here.

As fo silver oxide being conductive - the biggest problem in a silver
cell is the extra graphite needed to make it conduct - silver oxide is a
p-type semiconductor. Silver sulphide is mode conductive than copper
oxide though by a long way and is usedful because then the silver coat
tarnishes it does not reduce the skin effect like the dielectric coating
of copper oxide will.

by picking up sulfur
from the air.

You are thinking of Copper.

Baron · Apr 18, 2009

Chris Street wrote:

Mr. Haney wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:30:45 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888@gmail.com
wrote:

On Apr 17, 7:18 am, "Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
"Pilgrim" <pilg...@noemail.net> wrote in message

newsilgrim-AB916B.05415017042009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...

In article <gs9gt7$uk...@news.albasani.net>,
"Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
"Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?
Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels
on the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high
frequency AC Steve Terry
Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver
plated? Chuck P.
Yes, Silver is one of the few metals that has a lower resistance
than copper,
but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the
best coverings.

Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,

Tarnish IS oxide, you dope. Silver oxidizes, it just doesn't grow
a
crust like Copper does, regardless of whatever other elements it
grabs while doing it.

Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide. The tarnishing process is
as follows..

8Ag + 4HS(-) <---> 4Ag2S + 2H2 + 4e-

Oxygen in the form of a water film is required - silver will not
tarnish in dry air. This reaction mops up the electrons lost in the
oxidation process

O2 + 2H2O + 4e- <---> 4OH(-)

Although the reaction is a classical redox process the end product is
not an oxide - it is assuredly silver sulphide.

Since I'm sure there will be a deal of shouting from people about how
this is bollocks, I would point out I have a degree and masters in the
field and spent a lot of time researching silver adsorption reactions
for silver oxide cells and lead acids - I do know what the deal is
here.

As fo silver oxide being conductive - the biggest problem in a silver
cell is the extra graphite needed to make it conduct - silver oxide is
a p-type semiconductor. Silver sulphide is more conductive than copper
oxide though by a long way and is usedful because then the silver coat
tarnishes it does not reduce the skin effect like the dielectric
coating of copper oxide will.

I own a couple of antenna that are silver plated for that reason !

by picking up sulfur
from the air.

You are thinking of Copper.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Mr. Haney · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:01:59 +0100, Johannes <nix@nix.nix> wrote:

On 18 Apr 03:49, Mr. Haney wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:23:26 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:
Mr. Haney wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:49 +0100, Ian Bell
ruffrecords@yahoo.com> wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:
Sandi wrote:

Is it real "tin" that's used?

No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)

Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they
banned it ;-)

Cheers
Ian

Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the
idiots had to do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It
doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN
Plated Wire. Pretty simple.

SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly
from a shelf life POV.

I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap
won't even take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost
difference is negligible, if one weighs the added labor cost
of dealing with poor quality TPC, which nearly all of it is.

Tinned plated wire shouldn't have issues with solder how ever,
electro plated may which is normally used more in cases of
screw terminals and crimp fasteners.

Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder,
especially when it is inside teflon.

An even worse type is HV wire that is TPC on PTFE. It is
worth whatever the difference is to buy SPC, because THAT
ALWAYS takes solder.

Aren't these problems are surely to do with contamination of the
wire plating by the insulation rather than inherent
characteristics of the plating?

Duh. That's what I said. "especially when it is inside teflon".

Worldclass Wire & Cable's catalogue has several charts comparing
the properties of the insulation including one on
fluoropolymers. However they don't seem to worry much about
soldering probably because maybe they presume their users
(usually military subcontractors) will clean the wire.

The FLUX 'cleans the wire' you dippy ditz.

The cases notes are where NORMAL soldering processes do NOT yield
favorable results.

It is pretty obvious for anyone with an inkling of common sense.

Mr. Haney · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:04:11 +0100, Chris Street
<ng@chris-street.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Since I'm sure there will be a deal of shouting from people about how
this is bollocks, I would point out I have a degree and masters in the
field and spent a lot of time researching silver adsorption reactions
for silver oxide cells and lead acids - I do know what the deal is here.

No. You are correct.

mick · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:54:52 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

<snip>

Borderline? Bwahahahahahaha! You must be new around here ;-)

:-D
Nice one Jim...

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.

krw · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:11:55 +0100, Tyrorex <atomix@internet.doom>
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:53:17 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Mr. Haney"

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does.

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

..... Phil

I don't know Mr Haney or you but AFAICT he seems to write sensibly,
accurately and with some knowledge of what he is discussing. I'm
prepared to accept what he writes.

You're an idiot, then. DimBulb (latest sock puppet, "Mr Haney") went
out of his way to earn the name "AlwaysWrong".

Could you cut the noise down please. Thank you.

Well, there you have a point.

Jim Thompson · Apr 18, 2009

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:11:55 +0100, Tyrorex <atomix@internet.doom>
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:53:17 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Mr. Haney"

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does.

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.

..... Phil

I don't know Mr Haney or you but AFAICT he seems to write sensibly,
accurately and with some knowledge of what he is discussing. I'm
prepared to accept what he writes.

Could you cut the noise down please. Thank you.

William Sommerwerck · Apr 19, 2009

Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.

You don't understand what "oxidation" means.

Chris Street · Apr 19, 2009

William Sommerwerck wrote:

Tarnish is silver sulphide. It is no oxide.

You don't understand what "oxidation" means.

I most assuredly do as I pointed out in the post above. The suplhide is
an oxidation product but it is most assuredly not an oxide as has been
claimed several times.

What is the purspose of pre-tinned wire?

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