What is the purspose of pre-tinned wire?

[Howard Eisenhauer]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:14:40 +0100, Sandi <invalid@email.com> wrote:

Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
not.

What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
cleaning.

Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
tinned?

Is cost really so different?

Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?

Is flexibility affected?

In the telecom industry the rule is "silver on silver". Back in the
bad old days there could be problems with diss-simmilar metals
corroding & creating noise on circuits both from rectification effects
& from current punch-through across the junction when voltage was
applied to the circuit, i.e. "going off-hook". In some cases
"sealing" current was (& still is) applied on a constant basis to
circuits that didn't require it for operation, just to keep junction
corrosion from getting bothersome.

Although not part of the original Bellcore standard I've actually
speced tinned wire for T1 circuits going into areas I knew were going
going to be climate controlled.

H.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Sandi wrote:

Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is
not.

What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the
advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the
wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal
cleaning.

Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre-
tinned?

Is cost really so different?

Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?

Is flexibility affected?

Are you certain that its tinned wire you are looking at and not
nickel-plated copper? That is often used for high temp applications
where the copper alone will oxidize.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
At some point it becomes necessary to behead all the architects and
begin construction. -- Abi-Bar-Shim (Project Mgr. - Great Pyramid)

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,
by picking up sulfur from the air.

Same thing. Chemically, it's oxidation. Silver cleaners/polishes are
reducing agents (eg, Tarn-X).

 

[Gnack Nol]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:14:40 +0100, Sandi wrote:

Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot is not.

What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see the advantage
is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which means the wire can be
soldered or fixed to a terminate with only minimal cleaning.

Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire pre- tinned?

Is cost really so different?

Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in the
overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?

Is flexibility affected?

The best I can remember was that the original plastic coating first used
when the cloth covering was abandoned was somewhat corrosive adding to the
problems of exposure to other corrosive elements including poor annealing
of the core wires and would usually result in you having to scrape the
wire ends before trying to solder them since the wire was usually oxidized
enough to interfere with proper solder adhesion off the spool new.

Tinning did away with this aggravation and the need to use corrosive flux
to get a proper solder joint. Though some of the early tinning was poor
quality and corroded also.

Early tinned wire was slightly stiffer and a tinned stranded conductor was
almost as stiff as a solid wire. with thinner plating techniques this is
not the case any more except for much of the wire made in the far east.

This was usually offset by going to a smaller gauge wire.

Most early primary electronic wiring was originally something between 14
and 16 ga. with tinned wires this became 18 to 20 ga. in most cases.

Gnack

 

On Apr 17, 7:18 am, "Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:

"Pilgrim" <pilg...@noemail.net> wrote in message

newsilgrim-AB916B.05415017042009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...



In article <gs9gt7$uk...@news.albasani.net>,
"Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:

"Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?

Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
Steve Terry

Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
Chuck P.

Yes, Silver is one of the few metals that has a lower resistance than
copper,
but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
coverings.

Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes, by picking up sulfur
from the air.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:20:00 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Sandi wrote:
On 17 Apr 04:49, Ross Herbert wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:14:40 +0100, Sandi <invalid@email.com
wrote:

:Some insulated multistrnd copper wire is pre-tinned and a lot
:is not.
:
:What is the purpose of pre-tinned wire? As far as I can see
:the advantage is that the copper core doesn't oxidise which
:means the wire can be soldered or fixed to a terminate with
nly minimal cleaning.
:
:Sounds like a good thing to me, so why isn't almost all wire
re- tinned?
:
:Is cost really so different?
:
oes the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been
:in the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
:
:Is flexibility affected?


As you surmised, the answer is cost. It is not the cost of the
tin itself but the additional process and handling which adds
to the complexity of production. The copper conductor wire
gauge is not made smaller where tinning is not applied and the
added few microns of tin would not affect resistance/unit
length by any significant degree. Flexibility is not an issue.

I think that manufacturers realise the majority of termination
methods used today rely on crimping or soldering while the
copper conductors are clean. Tinned conductors are an
advantage where the conductors are secured by screws or
wire-wrap although less so for the latter. Insulation
displacement techniques are not a problem for untinned
conductors.

Is it real "tin" that's used?


No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Cheers

ian

Folks in this discussion need to define "pre-tinned".

There is TPC wire, which is individual TIN plated Copper strands made
into mutli-stranded wire in the same process as any other stranded wire.

There is SPC, which is individual Silver plated Copper strands.

It was always my understanding that "pre-tinned" wire was stranded wire
that was run through a solder bath and tinned similarly as the 'tinning'
one would give the end of a wire in a solder pot.

If the wire is this type, it is used in certain industries to reduce
production labor costs. It is specifically NOT used in certain other
industries due to the problems associated with cinched type termination
processes and an effect known as 'solder creep'.

TPC is TIN plated, not solder plated. Just like it states.

"Pre-tinned wire" IS processed using solder.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:49 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com>
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:

Sandi wrote:

Is it real "tin" that's used?

No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)




Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they banned it ;-)

Cheers

Ian

Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the idiots had to
do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated
Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN Plated Wire. Pretty simple.

SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly from a shelf
life POV.

I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap won't even
take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost difference is negligible, if
one weighs the added labor cost of dealing with poor quality TPC, which
nearly all of it is.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:07:46 +0100, "Steve Terry" <gFOURwwk@tesco.net>
wrote:

"Sandi" <invalid@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?


Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC

Steve Terry


That's why one should use SPC, which is Silver plated Copper.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:41:50 -0700, Pilgrim <pilgrim@noemail.net> wrote:

In article <gs9gt7$uk9$1@news.albasani.net>,
"Steve Terry" <gFOURwwk@tesco.net> wrote:

"Sandi" <invalid@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?


Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC

Steve Terry

Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?

Chuck P.

Wrong. The customer gets what the customer buys. If all YOU were
exposed to was SPC TFE, the THAT was ALL your employer was buying, you
dope. TPC was just as prevalent, despite the fact that it sucks on so
many levels.

 

[Jamie]

Mr. Haney wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:49 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com
wrote:


David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:


Sandi wrote:

Is it real "tin" that's used?

No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)




Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they banned it ;-)

Cheers

Ian



Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the idiots had to
do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated
Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN Plated Wire. Pretty simple.

SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly from a shelf
life POV.

I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap won't even
take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost difference is negligible, if
one weighs the added labor cost of dealing with poor quality TPC, which
nearly all of it is.
Tinned plated wire shouldn't have issues with solder how ever, electro

plated may which is normally used more in cases of screw terminals and
crimp fasteners.





http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:35:39 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Pilgrim"
"Steve Terry"
"Sandi"

Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC


Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?


** No.

Teflon coated wire intended is for high temp applications.

With the sole exclusion of anything related to a nuclear reactor.

Teflon turns to powder in that environment, and they (Genral Atomics)do
not use it in such settings. You will see it used on the Predator,
however.

Silver has a much higher melting point than tin ( just a tad below copper)
and is more corrosion resistant too.

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does. Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air. In wiring, it does not affect the overall conductivity of
the wire. In the lab, it is the top dog.

Most conductive element: Silver

Most conductive compound: Silver Oxide

..... Phil

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:18:30 +0100, "Steve Terry" <gFOURwwk@tesco.net>
wrote:

but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
coverings.

Silver oxide is acceptable. It remains as a mechanical part of the
surface, and does not adversely affect conductivity.

Copper oxide is an unacceptable CRUST on your wire.

That is one reason why Sivler was used to plate copper wires.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:30:45 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888@gmail.com wrote:

On Apr 17, 7:18 am, "Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:
"Pilgrim" <pilg...@noemail.net> wrote in message

newsilgrim-AB916B.05415017042009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...



In article <gs9gt7$uk...@news.albasani.net>,
"Steve Terry" <gFOUR...@tesco.net> wrote:

"Sandi" <inva...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9BF02B2DB25E3628D1@news.albasani.net...
snip
Does the tinning-coating replace where copper would have been in
the overall wire and tinning is of higher reistence?
Is flexibility affected?

Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC
Steve Terry

Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?
Chuck P.

Yes, Silver is one of the few metals that has a lower resistance than
copper,
but oxidises easily so silver should be covered, PTFE is one of the best
coverings.


Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,

Tarnish IS oxide, you dope. Silver oxidizes, it just doesn't grow a
crust like Copper does, regardless of whatever other elements it grabs
while doing it.

by picking up sulfur
from the air.

You are thinking of Copper.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:29:51 -0700, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I don't believe that the silver plating is thick enough to give the
wire a significant conductivity advantage over pure copper, even at RF
frequencies.

There are grades of plating, just like there are grades of say hard
anodizing surface thickness for Aluminum, which affects its insulative
capacity (electrical).

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mr. Haney"
"Phil Allison"

** No.

Teflon coated wire intended is for high temp applications.

With the sole exclusion of anything related to a nuclear reactor.

** Wot utterly irrelevant drivel.

Silver has a much higher melting point than tin ( just a tad below copper)
and is more corrosion resistant too.

Also, purified Silver Oxide, made in the lab, conducts better than the
element itself does.

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

Silver oxide on wires, and other conductive
surfaces creates a protective 'patina' on the surfaces that are exposed
to the air.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dark tarnish seen on silver is silver sulphide ( Ag2S ) - which is an
insulator.

Hanley is just parroting one of the DUMBEST MYTHS floating around the
internet and swallowed whole by audiophools.



...... Phil

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:59:48 GMT, zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)
wrote:

In article <gsajee$d6b$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS) wrote:
In article <vdumb6-6ch.ln1@radagast.org>, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
wrote:
In article <pilgrim-AB916B.05415017042009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
Pilgrim <pilgrim@noemail.net> wrote:

Tin has a much lower conductivity than copper, and as RF travels on
the surface of a conductor, it would attenuate RF and high frequency AC

Is that why most, but not all, teflon insulated wire was silver plated?

My understanding is that the Teflon-insulated wire uses silverplating
for a couple of reasons, related to the high melting point of Teflon
(and thus the high temperatures to which the wire is exposed when the
Teflon is melt-extruded onto the conductors).

I checked looked at a spool of about #20 stranded wire. It does look very shiny
like silver.
I thought it was odd looking at it. its made up of a tightly twisted center
section and a loosly woven outer section around the inner section. The TFE is
almost a fluorescent blue. Neat stuff. 19/32 strands.


This got to be audio grade !

It is likely SPC and is Mil grade. There is no such thing as "audio
grade". You have been talking to too many consumer electronics
salespersons.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mr. Haney the Halfwit "

Silver does not oxidize so much as it tarnishes,

Tarnish IS oxide, you dope.

** Hanley is FUCKING IMBECILE.




...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mr. Haney the Dickwad "

Silver oxide is acceptable.

** But non existent on wires etc.

It remains as a mechanical part of the
surface, and does not adversely affect conductivity.

** Since it does not exist on wire surfaces, that is true.

Hanley is a TOTAL MORON !!!




....... Phil

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:23:26 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Mr. Haney wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:49 +0100, Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com
wrote:


David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/17/2009 7:20 AM Ian Bell spake thus:


Sandi wrote:

Is it real "tin" that's used?

No, it is usually tin/lead alloy, better known as solder.

Not any more (post-RoHS). (Solder, yes, but not lead.)




Fortunately I stocked up on the real stuff before they banned it ;-)

Cheers

Ian



Sorry, but TPC wire was already RoHS compliant. All the idiots had to
do is change the label. TIN is TIN. It doesn't say "SPC" (Solder PLated
Wire)... It SAYS TPC TIN Plated Wire. Pretty simple.

SPC (Silver, of course) is better anyway... particularly from a shelf
life POV.

I hate TPC wire that has been around too long. The crap won't even
take solder. Give me SPC any day. The cost difference is negligible, if
one weighs the added labor cost of dealing with poor quality TPC, which
nearly all of it is.
Tinned plated wire shouldn't have issues with solder how ever, electro
plated may which is normally used more in cases of screw terminals and
crimp fasteners.

Tin plated wire is notorious for NOT taking solder, especially when it
is inside teflon.

An even worse type is HV wire that is TPC on PTFE. It is worth
whatever the difference is to buy SPC, because THAT ALWAYS takes solder.

 

[Mr. Haney]

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:44:08 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

** Shame it does not even exist on silver objects or wires.

One of the only true things I have ever seen you state.