The reality of driving an EV cross-country...

[bitrex]

On 6/9/2022 11:05 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/09/2022 02:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!


And on even days you can buy 5 gallons of gas... Been there, done that,
and lived through the inflation when Nixon\'s wage and price controls
unraveled. Jimmy really should have stuck to peanuts rather than buying
that pig in a poke.

Even Nixon was smart enough to initiate wage & price controls when he
figured inflation was getting bad enough to hurt his re-election
chances. \"Communist\" Biden doesn\'t seem interested, though.

\"In late July, 1971, Nixon reiterated his adamant opposition to wage and
price controls calling them a scheme to socialize America. Yet, less
than a month later, in a stunning reversal, he imposed the first and
only peacetime wage and price controls in U.S. history.\"

I guess it\'s true what they say, only Nixon could go to China.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 7:41 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/9/2022 3:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!

There\'s no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop
subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn\'t really want to do the
former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.

Most of the \"subsidies\" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer\'s parts department?
Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
drivetrain? Plant?

Jeez, you think I go to the DEALER for regular service? I\'ve been to the dealer
like once in my plug-in\'s lifetime for warranty service on the shifter, it had
a fault that affects several other GM vehicles. Probably 80% of the car is
built from the regular GM parts bin.

\"Veneer over the dealer\'s parts department\"

What do you do for the other 20% of parts?

I suspect I can buy every part for my ICE from the dealership/manufacturer
or several others who make compatible parts. I\'ve replaced starters,
radiators, water pumps, etc. and never was tied to the dealer\'s prices
(or labor).

This is important for folks who want to maintain an older vehicle to
avoid the payments and taxes on a \"newer\" vehicle. We tend to keep
cars for ~15 years, replacing them at ~80K because we feel we\'re
\"entitled\" to something new. Friends always want to purchase them
(for their kids, etc.) because they know I\'ve meticulously
maintained them, no accidents, etc.

SWMBO\'s current vehicle challenges that as so many of the systems
are now electronically controlled (steering, brakes, etc.)

I don\'t need any kind of special tech to
do the brakes or rotate the tires or stuff like that.

Actually I\'ve never had the brakes done since I bought it, with regenerative
braking they wear very slowly. At the last service they tell me it\'ll probably
need them at 80k so probably good until winter.

No you can\'t buy a 3rd party battery or motor for it at this time, and it\'s
probably difficult to modify in general.

Will your next pushed software update make assumptions about the power plant
that your replacement may have invalidated?

Can you buy a 3rd party motor or transmission for a late-model Corvette? Is it
easy to mod? Probably yes to the first question and no to the second, how many
people in the US are there well-qualified to performance mod a C8 Corvette and
produce anything nicer than they started with (beyond futzing with the ECU in
software.) The modding market for late-model cars is so small as to be
economically irrelevant.

You\'re thinking from an elitist\'s point of view. Not everyone modifies a
vehicle for increased performance. And, not all start with vettes.
Does every EV owner buy a high-end Tesla? By your analysis, we should
ignore those that don\'t (economically irrelevant).

Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
have in your vehicle\'s future?

[Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that \"po\' foke\" can afford?

Ever? Ever is a long time, and used cars depreciate.

What\'s the value of a battery that still has serviceable life? (i.e.,
the value of an ENGINE that still runs). THAT will set the low end of
the (used) EV selling price.

Used cars in general are
holding their value pretty well right now, but you can get a low-miles circa
2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If you\'re ok with going older
and higher miles than that you can do better than that.

Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles and
probably well out of warranty coverage, but that\'s true for just about any used
car affordable by the very low income, it\'s a crapshoot. I\'ve been very low
income when I was younger and know what it\'s like to gamble with what cheap
used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable enough to get to work in without
breaking down soon, it ain\'t fun.

There are people who are *stuck* in \"very low income\". Forcing them to
buy a vehicle that they can\'t afford just further traps them, there.

An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of \"driving capacity\" that
he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
the fuel. Can you buy a \"cheaper\" version of an EV that is only useful
for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
you do so, practically?

E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
at a time.

Eh? The ICE buyer (assuming cost no object) can choose their stock fuel tank
capacity up to about a factor of 2.5, a mid size car these days tends to have a
fuel tank of about 15-18 gallons, a compact car maybe 10-12, and it\'s difficult
to find anything stock with a tank capacity over 30. Maybe on a few of the
biggest trucks and SUVs/fuel thirsty high-end luxury cars like a Rolls Royce
with an aux tank or something, don\'t know offhand.

Don\'t know why meanwhile some hypothetical EV model should have to have a
select able battery capacity that varies over a factor of 20

There\'s no cost to a bigger tank -- your vehicle has it or it doesn\'t.
If it\'s a smaller car, it likely gets higher gas mileage so overall
*range* is likely close to constant.

Once you\'ve made your battery purchase, that\'s your upper range limit.
If you drive around town, primarily, are you going to invest in
\"extra capacity\" just in case you want to drive a long distance?

But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
And, don\'t have to resort to an \"extended range\" version of the vehicle
to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
of \"trim level\"/price point.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 10:23 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average
60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.
(not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave
your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car
to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing
that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome
problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not
sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore,
because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2
tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I
don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I
liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a
regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to
move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for
better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or
was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards
the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL!  At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product.  Still, you aren\'t
saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had
to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

You don\'t read car mags very often do you? Every car is the greatest
thing since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill
you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s Wheaties.

I read them plenty. Car & Driver does _not_ review everything as the
greatest thing. They rarely give anything a 1/10 or a very low score,
because new car quality overall is quite good these days, it\'s rare
anything objectively deserves a very low score.

But I don\'t think they live in fear of the manufacturers, they have too
much clout.

The late-model Jeep Compass just as one example got fairly ripped:

<https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass>

\"Lethargic gas powertrain, can\'t tow as much as the Cherokee, poor value
proposition.\"

Doesn\'t sound like the \"greatest thing\" to me.

And they don\'t give every luxury car with a high price tag glowing
reviews either.

Anyway, Consumer Reports said much the same things about the Volt - they
aren\'t beholden to any ads.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the
WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
revenues pay the light bill you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s
Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition:  \"Best taco shop\",
\"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\".  They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Best hamburger.  Best CHEESEburger.  Best french fries.  Best ribs.  Best
steak.  Best business on north side of street.  Best business on SOUTH
side of street.  Best business with an awning out front.  Best business
with
fewer than 5 parking spaces.

[I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a \"best\"!]

Of course, they post the results.

And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward:  \"Voted
\'Best\' for
three years running!\"

Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and
results),
they decided they could do it *twice* a year!  (in case the best taco shop
happened to change in the interim).

There are few objectively \"bad\" cars made in 2022, the market has been
ruthless at eliminating them. There are mostly just cars that are
overpriced for what they offer, compared to competitors in their same
class. This Jeep Compass gets a 6/10 priced at 30k for a mid trim model:

<https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass>

If they could somehow sell it at 15k, wow! 9/10. Obviously they can\'t do
that, though, and so it gets what it gets.

There are definitely some restaurants out there serving some objectively
bad food and some barber shops giving objectively bad haircuts, though.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 11:18 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for
the WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
revenues pay the light bill you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s
Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition:  \"Best taco
shop\", \"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\".  They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Best hamburger.  Best CHEESEburger.  Best french fries.  Best ribs.  Best
steak.  Best business on north side of street.  Best business on SOUTH
side of street.  Best business with an awning out front.  Best
business with
fewer than 5 parking spaces.

[I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a \"best\"!]

Of course, they post the results.

And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward:  \"Voted
\'Best\' for
three years running!\"

Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and
results),
they decided they could do it *twice* a year!  (in case the best taco
shop
happened to change in the interim).

There are few objectively \"bad\" cars made in 2022, the market has been
ruthless at eliminating them

I should qualify that by \"For sale in the US market\" like you can
definitely find some cars out there in the world that if Car & Driver
were to review them as if they were for sale in the US market they would
get a 1/10. They\'re not for sale here though.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now,
but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well
under 20k. If you\'re ok with going older and higher miles than that
you can do better than that.

Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high
miles and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that\'s true for
just about any used car affordable by the very low income, it\'s a
crapshoot. I\'ve been very low income when I was younger and know what
it\'s like to gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will
stay reliable enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it
ain\'t fun.

There are people who are *stuck* in \"very low income\".  Forcing them to
buy a vehicle that they can\'t afford just further traps them, there.

I don\'t have time to address all your points atm but I\'d like to be
clear on this point. I\'m what many users here consider a \"communist\", I
don\'t believe in forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can\'t
afford, and I\'ve made this objection before on another thread by Ricky,
who sometimes seems left-wing and at other times doesn\'t seem
particularly left-wing at all.

I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that\'s
what they can afford & I don\'t blame them for anything with respect to
what at this time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don\'t demand
they change that.

I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to
subsidize housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending
trillions on the defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

to put it crassly.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 8:41 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now, but you
can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If
you\'re ok with going older and higher miles than that you can do better than
that.

Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles and
probably well out of warranty coverage, but that\'s true for just about any
used car affordable by the very low income, it\'s a crapshoot. I\'ve been very
low income when I was younger and know what it\'s like to gamble with what
cheap used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable enough to get to work in
without breaking down soon, it ain\'t fun.

There are people who are *stuck* in \"very low income\". Forcing them to
buy a vehicle that they can\'t afford just further traps them, there.

I don\'t have time to address all your points atm but I\'d like to be clear on
this point. I\'m what many users here consider a \"communist\", I don\'t believe in
forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can\'t afford, and I\'ve made this
objection before on another thread by Ricky, who sometimes seems left-wing and
at other times doesn\'t seem particularly left-wing at all.

But if the only *choices* they have are those that they can\'t afford, is there
really a difference?

One can \"blame\" them for their plight -- and, for some, its hard to imagine
how they can justify \"high speed internet, CATV and a fancy phone\", but not
decent transportation (or healthy food).

Until we come up with a solution that scales well -- in numbers and across
income/opportunity groups -- we\'re just spinning our wheels.

New cars (of any technology) are increasingly difficult for low income
folks to afford and maintain. Does that effectively solve the polution
and global warming problems by relegating them to mass transit? But,
then, what responsibility do we (the \"privileged/taxable\") have to provide
effective mass transit -- even though we don\'t DIRECTLY benefit from it?

What consequence if those folks can\'t offer their labor (to *us*!)?

It\'s not uncommon to pay a few hundred dollars, monthly, to have your
yardwork done (and lots are very small, here). What if the guy
can\'t physically *get* to your yard -- would YOU have to pull your
own weeds?? (OhMiGosh!)

I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that\'s what
they can afford & I don\'t blame them for anything with respect to what at this
time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don\'t demand they change that.

But if \"public policy\" reduces their choices, then what? Isn\'t it
hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can\'t leverage fossil
fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
those regions? Doesn\'t every Indian and Chinaman \"deserve\" a vehicle?
Air conditioning? Quality food?

I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to subsidize
housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending trillions on the
defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

The gummit will ALWAYS be using your tax dollars to pursue ITS objectives.
(_Three Days of the Condor_)

These objectives will coincide with the desires of some. But, as we have
a representational democracy (instead of \"true\") our influence over those
policies is, at best, indirect.

> to put it crassly.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 12:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

But if \"public policy\" reduces their choices, then what?  Isn\'t it
hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can\'t leverage fossil
fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
those regions?  Doesn\'t every Indian and Chinaman \"deserve\" a vehicle?
Air conditioning?  Quality food?

<https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/gty3ge/20_years_of_development_in_shanghai_china/>

I\'d say China\'s well on its way to providing those things to every
\"Chinaman\", long before every Americaman has them..

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 12:24 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 12:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

But if \"public policy\" reduces their choices, then what?  Isn\'t it
hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can\'t leverage fossil
fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
those regions?  Doesn\'t every Indian and Chinaman \"deserve\" a vehicle?
Air conditioning?  Quality food?


https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/gty3ge/20_years_of_development_in_shanghai_china/


I\'d say China\'s well on its way to providing those things to every
\"Chinaman\", long before every Americaman has them..

Or IOW the time the rest of the world dictates what the BRIC nations do
is rapidly evaporating, and the time the BRIC nations dictate what the
world does seems to be coming fast.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future.. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

It\'s a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
except it\'s quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
well. Not sure what I \"convinced\" you of or why you\'re freaking out over
that one thing.

You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can\'t argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 11:41:31 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now,
but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well
under 20k. If you\'re ok with going older and higher miles than that
you can do better than that.

Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high
miles and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that\'s true for
just about any used car affordable by the very low income, it\'s a
crapshoot. I\'ve been very low income when I was younger and know what
it\'s like to gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will
stay reliable enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it
ain\'t fun.

There are people who are *stuck* in \"very low income\". Forcing them to
buy a vehicle that they can\'t afford just further traps them, there.
I don\'t have time to address all your points atm but I\'d like to be
clear on this point. I\'m what many users here consider a \"communist\", I
don\'t believe in forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can\'t
afford, and I\'ve made this objection before on another thread by Ricky,
who sometimes seems left-wing and at other times doesn\'t seem
particularly left-wing at all.

If you were able to actually read and understand what was written, you would know this is not true. But you are who you are, and nothing I say will change your mind. I\'m left of left and I\'m so far right even Barry Goldwater thinks I\'m extreme. I want to oppress the working class and I want to give them all free handouts taken from the rich. I\'m the alpha and the omega.. Well, at least that\'s how you interpret what I write.

I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that\'s
what they can afford & I don\'t blame them for anything with respect to
what at this time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don\'t demand
they change that.

I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to
subsidize housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending
trillions on the defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

to put it crassly.

More accurately, to put it stupidly.

War machines are essential to the security of every nation. Just ask Ukraine! If you have them, once in a while you have to show you know how to use them. Russia would like to be showing that, but they aren\'t doing so well..

I would love to subsidize even more housing as required (your statement makes it sound like this is not done, but it is actually common everyplace where I live). The fact that people live in the street does not automatically mean more housing is needed, it is not uncommon for people to refuse any accommodations. So where it is needed, I agree, we should supply it. It has nothing to do with military spending unless those in need of housing are in the military, which does happen.

I was in New Orleans and met people who live on the streets. I can\'t say if this is because of inadequate housing, or if they simply have chosen this life for whatever reasons. I\'m not automatically assuming it is because there\'s no place for them to live.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 8:18 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
revenues pay the light bill you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition: \"Best taco shop\", \"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs. Best
steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best business with
fewer than 5 parking spaces.

[I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a \"best\"!]

Of course, they post the results.

And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: \"Voted \'Best\' for
three years running!\"

Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and results),
they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco shop
happened to change in the interim).

There are few objectively \"bad\" cars made in 2022, the market has been ruthless
at eliminating them. There are mostly just cars that are overpriced for what
they offer, compared to competitors in their same class. This Jeep Compass gets
a 6/10 priced at 30k for a mid trim model:

https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass

If they could somehow sell it at 15k, wow! 9/10. Obviously they can\'t do that,
though, and so it gets what it gets.

There are definitely some restaurants out there serving some objectively bad
food and some barber shops giving objectively bad haircuts, though.

They, eventually, close their doors.

Note that the rag doesn\'t ask folks to *rate* the establishments;
and, doesn\'t tabulate the number of \"votes\" each received.

So, it is useless for anything more than generating ad revenue
(as the folks who respond self-select to do so!)

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

It\'s a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
except it\'s quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
well. Not sure what I \"convinced\" you of or why you\'re freaking out over
that one thing.

You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can\'t argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the
computer thinks it\'s appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
- if that\'s what you mean. It\'s not entirely under manual control.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

It\'s a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
except it\'s quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
well. Not sure what I \"convinced\" you of or why you\'re freaking out over
that one thing.

You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can\'t argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the
computer thinks it\'s appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
- if that\'s what you mean. It\'s not entirely under manual control.

Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That\'s what you don\'t seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It\'s actually one of the truly great things about a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the \"throttle\".

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 4:24 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

It\'s a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
except it\'s quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
well. Not sure what I \"convinced\" you of or why you\'re freaking out over
that one thing.

You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can\'t argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the
computer thinks it\'s appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
- if that\'s what you mean. It\'s not entirely under manual control.

Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That\'s what you don\'t seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It\'s actually one of the truly great things about a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the \"throttle\".

I don\'t enjoy driving a car that behaves that way personally.

You say \"properly designed\" but I doubt the overall efficiency gains of
having the accelerator behave that way are that amazing vs just letting
the car \"coast\" down when you let up, and let the computer manage the
regen, tapping off some energy as it sees fit.My guess would be it\'s
maybe 5-10% at the outside worse that way, it\'s not gonna be like a 50%
difference.

You can drive the Bolt and Volt that way if you want, I\'ve tried it and
got like maybe 2 miles better range. Tesla\'s implementation may be
better but what magic do they have to make it something really special.

Also sounds like a good way to be surprised you\'re not stopping if the
computer detects wheelslip and cuts out the regeneration, I don\'t think
it can apply the mechanical brakes as a backup if your foots not on the
brake pedal.

It\'s known to happen in the Leaf and GM\'s EVs, I doubt Teslas are immune.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 08:35 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 6/10/2022 7:20 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive \"cheap\" cars,
likely because they can\'t afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don\'t think the
pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama\'s Cash for
Clunkers drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for
the kids.

I suspect many \"middle class\" households are similarly pressed when
it comes to car payments. (The idea of buying a car \"on time\" is
anathema to me).

I think the last one I bought like that was an \'80 Camaro. $99 down and
0% financing through GMAC. The price was right and it fleshed out my
credit history.

It is amusing dealing with car salesmen. They\'re hard wired to discuss
financing and keep starting the spiel even after you\'ve told them you\'re
going to write a check.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:30:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 4:24 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:

You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can\'t argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the
computer thinks it\'s appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
- if that\'s what you mean. It\'s not entirely under manual control.

Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That\'s what you don\'t seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It\'s actually one of the truly great things about a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the \"throttle\".

I don\'t enjoy driving a car that behaves that way personally.

I didn\'t realize you have had any cars with regeneration other than the Volt. What was it?

You say \"properly designed\" but I doubt the overall efficiency gains of
having the accelerator behave that way are that amazing vs just letting
the car \"coast\" down when you let up, and let the computer manage the
regen, tapping off some energy as it sees fit.My guess would be it\'s
maybe 5-10% at the outside worse that way, it\'s not gonna be like a 50%
difference.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say the \"computer\" manages the regen. How would the computer know anything about when to provide regen and how much? What inputs does it use? The Tesla lets you control it when you are driving, or it controls it when on autopilot. It\'s not that the \"regen\" is controlled, in that the control is how much power to put back into the battery. It is a way to brake the car. The driver can control that braking or the autopilot can control that braking. The return of power to the battery is the result, not the goal.

The efficiency gains come from using the regen. I never said it had to do with the way the accelerator works.

You can drive the Bolt and Volt that way if you want, I\'ve tried it and
got like maybe 2 miles better range. Tesla\'s implementation may be
better but what magic do they have to make it something really special.

Also sounds like a good way to be surprised you\'re not stopping if the
computer detects wheelslip and cuts out the regeneration, I don\'t think
it can apply the mechanical brakes as a backup if your foots not on the
brake pedal.

I\'ve never had an issue with wheelslip, but if that is happening, it is better for the car to manage it than you stepping on the brakes. Either way, in the Tesla, the car will stop as quickly as possible given the traction. Not that I\'ve driven a lot of fancy cars, but the traction control in the Tesla is amazing.


> It\'s known to happen in the Leaf and GM\'s EVs, I doubt Teslas are immune.

No, road conditions are road conditions. The road doesn\'t care what car you are driving.

You can get a surprise on a full charged car. The charging rate of the battery is limited enough that somewhere above 90% charge, the regen is limited noticeably. If you charge to 100% and you start out, you won\'t have regen braking until you\'ve driven off a few percent. That\'s reason number 23 to not charge to 100%. The only time I charge to 100% is to recal the battery and I recently read that you only need to charge to 95% to do that. Much better.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 08:45 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the
WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
revenues pay the light bill you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s
Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition: \"Best taco shop\",
\"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Same here. About the only rag I trusted was Motorcycle Consumer News.
They were completely subscriber supported with no ads. The only possible
leverage was they couldn\'t afford to buy the motorcycles they tested so
used the ones provided to the press. That never seemed to hold them back
from criticism. Unfortunately they suddenly went out of business in
2020. After the January issue they mailed the subscribers and said that
was the last one. If you wanted they would try to refund the unused
subscription portion. If any of the writers knew the ax was falling they
gave no indication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumina_Media

Apparently the ferret fanciers were sol too. I knew MCN was published by
BowTie Press and assumed BowTie referred to Chevrolet not a bow tie
wearing pet lover with some weird link to motorcycles.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 09:22 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/10/2022 11:18 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for
the WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
revenues pay the light bill you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s
Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition: \"Best taco
shop\", \"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the
readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs.
Best
steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best
business with
fewer than 5 parking spaces.

[I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a \"best\"!]

Of course, they post the results.

And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: \"Voted
\'Best\' for
three years running!\"

Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and
results),
they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco
shop
happened to change in the interim).

There are few objectively \"bad\" cars made in 2022, the market has been
ruthless at eliminating them

I should qualify that by \"For sale in the US market\" like you can
definitely find some cars out there in the world that if Car & Driver
were to review them as if they were for sale in the US market they would
get a 1/10. They\'re not for sale here though.

Including afaik anything made in France. My brother was fond of Peugeots
but I don\'t think they\'ve been available for decades.

https://www.tatamotors.com/press/tata-motors-unveils-the-power-packed-punch-indias-first-sub-compact-suv/

I do wonder how some of Tata\'s offerings would stack up. What\'s not to
like about a car with \'370 mm Water wading capability\'.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 09:08 AM, bitrex wrote:

Anyway, Consumer Reports said much the same things about the Volt - they
aren\'t beholden to any ads.

Amazing that they didn\'t say you were better off with a Honda Civic. I
used to read CR for suggestions on things I know nothing about like
digital cameras. However I noticed in the categories that I do know
about that they played it very very safe. If you want middle of the road
bourgeois selections CR is your man.

Perhaps I\'m biased since the last time I looked they loathed my ride.
Noisy, under powered, unsafe, uncomfortable, only suitable for short
trips around town, etc.