The reality of driving an EV cross-country...

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

Why \"bad\"? What *can\'t* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
Windows platform?

It\'s bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
chore.

If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
building unlocked??

Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
variant! Or, something \"obscure and proprietary\". Ooops!

It\'s the same \"make or buy\" decision as with any component/IP in your
product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can\'t
(\"value\" can take the form of reduced cost).

Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
\"component\" -- cuz there\'s no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
it fails to perform as expected. \"Linux, Inc.\"?

Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don\'t
want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

\"Hello, Linux community. We\'re a big company and are having
problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
with us?\"

Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
that he\'s tampered with the binaries)?

Folks who roll their own OS\'s either have trivial needs *or*
exotic needs that can\'t (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

That\'s absurd.

Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
(or any other COTS) OS.

Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
business?

 

[John Doe]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

John Doe wrote:

Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by
software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for
an operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world
users care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating
system.

If not you can often use something like wine (Linux windows emulator) to
run MS windows stuff. Or just dual boot..

Nobody wants to run programs SLOWER. Almost NOBODY wants to dual boot.

I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech
activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

What a joke,

No, it\'s a fact.

> my first speech recognition on Linux goes back about 20 years

Playing with it for a short while is nothing like using it. Lots of people
play with speech recognition. Few end up using it.

POINT TO A LINUX SPEECH RECOGNITION FORUM...

There are none, because nobody does speech recognition on Linux.

Maybe Google can provide to Linux the same service it provides for
smartphones.

But even if it did, the combination of dictation and voice activated
scripting would be a bear when having to use two different programs. It\'s
difficult enough configuring Windows to combine both, using the same
Dragon NaturallySpeaking front end.

I used it to control my satellite receiver, saying \'show BBC\' would show
BBC, etc.

Command recognition is easy. Dictation is HARD.

Big companies like IBM (ViaVoice) and Microsoft (WSR) have tried (and
failed) to implement speech recognition. Nobody\'s paying anybody to do it
on Linux so it\'s not happening.

Everybody who wants to can have the speech recognition experience on their
Android smartphones now. I wonder if Apple ever tried... The fact it\'s on
Android is good stuff, but no doubt many people have great difficulty
using it (after the wow effect wears off). Speak in phrases or whole
sentences! The fewer the words, the more difficult it is to interpret
(since were not talking about a few preprogrammed commands).

But that smartphone implementation doesn\'t include voice activated
scripting for which you need to mess with the smartphone\'s security crud
(like jailbreaking). It wouldn\'t work anyway, because you would need to
use two separate programs.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-06-10 11:02, Don Y wrote:

On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

Why \"bad\"? What *can\'t* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
Windows platform?

It\'s bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
chore.

If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
building unlocked??

Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
variant! Or, something \"obscure and proprietary\". Ooops!

It\'s the same \"make or buy\" decision as with any component/IP in your
product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can\'t
(\"value\" can take the form of reduced cost).

Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
\"component\" -- cuz there\'s no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
it fails to perform as expected. \"Linux, Inc.\"?

Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don\'t
want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

\"Hello, Linux community. We\'re a big company and are having
problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
with us?\"

Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
that he\'s tampered with the binaries)?

Folks who roll their own OS\'s either have trivial needs *or*
exotic needs that can\'t (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

That\'s absurd.

Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
(or any other COTS) OS.

Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
business?

As it happens, in the place where I work, we *have* the support
staff. There is a strengthening push away from Micro$oft products
at the moment. That\'s fine by me. I switched to Linux a very
long time ago.

I won\'t discuss the point any further, knowing full well that
I can\'t compete with your endurance regarding such matters.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Ed Lee]

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!


There\'s no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop
subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn\'t really want to do the
former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
Most of the \"subsidies\" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer\'s parts department?
Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
drivetrain? Plant?

Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
have in your vehicle\'s future?

[Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that \"po\' foke\" can afford?

An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of \"driving capacity\" that
he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
the fuel. Can you buy a \"cheaper\" version of an EV that is only useful
for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
you do so, practically?

E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
at a time.

But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
And, don\'t have to resort to an \"extended range\" version of the vehicle
to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
of \"trim level\"/price point.

You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I\'ll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:18:56 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe
<always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7v2a0$ui7$1@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

John Doe wrote:

Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by
software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for
an operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world
users care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating
system.

If not you can often use something like wine (Linux windows emulator) to
run MS windows stuff. Or just dual boot..

Nobody wants to run programs SLOWER. Almost NOBODY wants to dual boot.

I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech
activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

What a joke,

No, it\'s a fact.

my first speech recognition on Linux goes back about 20 years

Playing with it for a short while is nothing like using it. Lots of people
play with speech recognition. Few end up using it.

POINT TO A LINUX SPEECH RECOGNITION FORUM...

There are none, because nobody does speech recognition on Linux.

Maybe Google can provide to Linux the same service it provides for
smartphones.

But even if it did, the combination of dictation and voice activated
scripting would be a bear when having to use two different programs. It\'s
difficult enough configuring Windows to combine both, using the same
Dragon NaturallySpeaking front end.

The power of Unix / Linux is pipes
Its easy to combine programs if those are written to use pipes,
I do it all the time.
Combining stuff others wrote with stuff you wrote yourself gives a lot of possibilities.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 12:21:26 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:07 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned
LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
and I\'ve owned a
number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy
Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
in the throttle body.

Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
But in actually designing anything excellent they\'re regularly hobbled
by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.
Well, it sure seems like they \"want\" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
This was a fascinating study in human behavior; the strident true believers like SNIPPERMAN, ricky and Bitrex are in full denial mode that include such tried and true methods as blaming the victim, or ME for just posting the article which I didn\'t write.

This, and other articles on the subject, have a common thread: the EV charging network is sporadic and is in disrepair. Planning cross country trips with an EV amount to a military exercise. EVs WILL NOT be accepted as a primary vehicle UNTIL these issues are fully resolved.

*Four years ago*, I drove from near Washington, DC to Houston, TX in a brand new model X. I did not observe the \"sporadic\" and \"disrepair\" nature of the charging network. Since then, the network has grown several fold. I think the reports of the EV\'s death are greatly exaggerated.

The fact that Tesla has raised the entry level price significantly, while the wait list gets longer, shows there no lack of demand for the vehicles. So obviously \"EVs WILL NOT be accepted\" is not an accurate description of the situation. But I suppose you meant, \"EVs WILL NOT be accepted\" by YOU. No one cares. No one is going to pry your vehicle from your cold, dead hands. You\'ll just have to drive 25 miles to get gasoline in 20 years. Or maybe you will make your own ethanol fuel from crops? Is that the sort of thing you like? Yes, I\'m sure it is, looking out for the planet.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

<https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

<https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

and I\'ve owned a
number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy
Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
in the throttle body.

Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
But in actually designing anything excellent they\'re regularly hobbled
by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.

Well, it sure seems like they \"want\" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:53:28 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:38:45 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jer...@nospam.please> wrote in <t7tb76$nac$1...@gioia.aioe.org>:
On 2022-06-09 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw....@fx07.iad>:

On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe
alway...@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1...@dont-email.me>:

bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

They made some Linux derivatives for \"ordinary users\" they\'re called
Android and ChromeOS.

Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
Linux to smartphone users.

You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

Oh boy..

I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
It is so \'automatic\' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

He\'s got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
they\'re doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it...
lots of things use a version of Linux.
My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
Everything worked...
Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick
It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory..
Just bring your own OS.
Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
Automatic! Firefox browser..
No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.

The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?
Most houses have windows.

Linux is even used in space.

The really weird thing is a bunch of Einstein parroting clowns shooting particles at each other
with no practical result other than babble on a piece of paper.

There is some irony in someone posting on the Internet about \"babble on a piece of paper\". The entire function of this group is babble! That includes most of what passes for \"technical\" discussion here, as well, certainly most of what you post.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 6:14 AM, Ed Lee wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!


There\'s no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop
subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn\'t really want to do the
former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
Most of the \"subsidies\" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer\'s parts department?
Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
drivetrain? Plant?

Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
have in your vehicle\'s future?

[Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that \"po\' foke\" can afford?

An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of \"driving capacity\" that
he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
the fuel. Can you buy a \"cheaper\" version of an EV that is only useful
for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
you do so, practically?

E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
at a time.

But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
And, don\'t have to resort to an \"extended range\" version of the vehicle
to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
of \"trim level\"/price point.

You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I\'ll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.

So, close to $15K?

You can *buy* an ICE vehicle for as little as a few hundred dollars.
For $15K, you can get something that even *looks* nice.

And, add \"energy\' to it for $5/gallon (presently).

I\'ve never known anyone to NEED to replace a gas tank!

What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive \"cheap\" cars,
likely because they can\'t afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 12:21 AM, Flyguy wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:07 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned
LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
and I\'ve owned a
number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy
Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
in the throttle body.

Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
But in actually designing anything excellent they\'re regularly hobbled
by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.
Well, it sure seems like they \"want\" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

This was a fascinating study in human behavior; the strident true believers like SNIPPERMAN, ricky and Bitrex are in full denial mode that include such tried and true methods as blaming the victim, or ME for just posting the article which I didn\'t write.

What a whiner. People who post OT posts should be grateful anyone
chooses to reply and talk to them in the first place.

> This, and other articles on the subject, have a common thread: the EV charging network is sporadic and is in disrepair. Planning cross country trips with an EV amount to a military exercise. EVs WILL NOT be accepted as a primary vehicle UNTIL these issues are fully resolved.

They\'ve already been accepted by millions of people who don\'t care what
the state of charging infrastructure in western Arkansas is, and don\'t
care about long cross country trips through those parts of the country.

I think Ricky can be an ass but he\'s right on one thing, despite
prognostications like \"they\'ll never this, they\'ll never that\" on the
part of guys like you, they keep selling.

Proclaiming a product a failure that they can\'t keep in stock and has
wait lists eventually just starts to look dumb

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 3:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-06-10 11:02, Don Y wrote:
On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

Why \"bad\"? What *can\'t* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
Windows platform?

It\'s bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
chore.

If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
building unlocked??

Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
variant! Or, something \"obscure and proprietary\". Ooops!

It\'s the same \"make or buy\" decision as with any component/IP in your
product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can\'t
(\"value\" can take the form of reduced cost).

Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
\"component\" -- cuz there\'s no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
it fails to perform as expected. \"Linux, Inc.\"?

Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don\'t
want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

\"Hello, Linux community. We\'re a big company and are having
problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
with us?\"

Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
that he\'s tampered with the binaries)?

Folks who roll their own OS\'s either have trivial needs *or*
exotic needs that can\'t (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

That\'s absurd.

Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
(or any other COTS) OS.

Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
business?

As it happens, in the place where I work, we *have* the support
staff. There is a strengthening push away from Micro$oft products
at the moment. That\'s fine by me. I switched to Linux a very
long time ago.

So, as I said, \"now you need to become expert in that \'component\'\".

We designed a bit of process control kit (a few hundred $K) for
our market. The *control* system was done with entirely off-the-shelf
components (PLCs and actuators/transducers) save for the actually
\"process\" equipment.

As the industry required complete documentation of the process
and controls (wiring diagrams, ladder logic, etc.) it was easy
for Customer X to clone the controls for their own use.

OK, they\'ve saved a few bucks for system #2.

But, now they\'re stuck in the controls business. What costs
did they have to assume in order to \"save\" those dollars?
(they aren\'t buying even *hundreds* of these systems at
a fraction of a megabuck, each).

And, how likely were they to get good prices (from us)
on the process equipment, going forward?

I won\'t discuss the point any further, knowing full well that
I can\'t compete with your endurance regarding such matters.

You\'re entitled to your opinion. Obviously (by your admission),
HP, Tek, etc. seem to share *my* opinion. As you were interested
in \"why\", I thought I\'d share *my* view as a hint as to how THEY
are likely making their decisions.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

What does WSJ have to do with this? I\'m going by your experience. You\'ve convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

It\'s a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
except it\'s quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
well. Not sure what I \"convinced\" you of or why you\'re freaking out over
that one thing.

It cost 26 grand out the door when I got it, it\'s paid for, and my fuel
and maintenance costs have been asymptotically zero, I like that about
it quite a bit. It\'s an enjoyable car to drive for the price. It\'s not a
$100,000 car, most cars aren\'t.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/09/2022 09:20 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/9/2022 11:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 06/09/2022 08:02 AM, bitrex wrote:
The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

Actually I prefer the 50\'s or older. I go to car shows and see
something like a meticulously restored Chevelle and wonder why bother.

ye olde rocket 88:

https://youtu.be/VXrAbG92h0A?t=86

Ah, vacuum windshield wipers... My family had a \'57 Chevy. The little
dip was retained but cars were growing fins. It was downhill from
around \'53 or so. I think the \'55 Chevy is overrated.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive \"cheap\" cars,
likely because they can\'t afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don\'t think the
pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama\'s Cash for Clunkers
drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for the kids.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average
60 miles
on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.
(not
counting that you could charge during sleep)
Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
sleep?

How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave
your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car
to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It\'s amazing
that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome
problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not
sure what Larkin would do when he can\'t buy an ICE anymore,
because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2
tons.

Here\'s the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs

(emphasis on OLD)

Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I
don\'t
resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
fashion at the time.

I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I
liked the HP descriptions. lol

I\'m not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a
regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to
move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for
better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or
was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards
the end?

The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
could afford were pretty bad:

https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k

The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I\'ve ever owned

LOL! At least you didn\'t say Chrysler product. Still, you aren\'t
saying much.

You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had
to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

Car and Driver\'s take was:

\"it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10\"

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt

Autoblog:

\"Best used car value in America\"

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

You don\'t read car mags very often do you? Every car is the greatest
thing since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill
you\'re not going to piss in anybody\'s Wheaties.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 6:58:52 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 6/10/2022 6:14 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!


There\'s no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop
subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn\'t really want to do the
former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
Most of the \"subsidies\" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer\'s parts department?
Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
drivetrain? Plant?

Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
have in your vehicle\'s future?

[Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that \"po\' foke\" can afford?

An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of \"driving capacity\" that
he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
the fuel. Can you buy a \"cheaper\" version of an EV that is only useful
for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
you do so, practically?

E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
at a time.

But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
And, don\'t have to resort to an \"extended range\" version of the vehicle
to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
of \"trim level\"/price point.

You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I\'ll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.
So, close to $15K?

More like $10k plus occasional rental of $10 to $20 per day.

> You can *buy* an ICE vehicle for as littleas a few hundred dollars.

Not without hundreds or thousands of maintenance/repair.

For $15K, you can get something that even *looks* nice.

And, add \"energy\' to it for $5/gallon (presently).

Local chargings are usually $0 to $2 /gal equivalent. It is only expensive for highway robbery, but only occasionally.

I\'ve never known anyone to NEED to replace a gas tank!

What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive \"cheap\" cars,
likely because they can\'t afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

Older Leafs (Leaves?) remain very popular for this kind of people, as well as students. Most of them can live with 40 miles range.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 7:20 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive \"cheap\" cars,
likely because they can\'t afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don\'t think the pool
cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama\'s Cash for Clunkers drove up
the price of used cars but no problem; it was for the kids.

I suspect many \"middle class\" households are similarly pressed when
it comes to car payments. (The idea of buying a car \"on time\" is
anathema to me).

The fact that folks *can* patch up old vehicles and keep them
driveable is what keeps them in the market. Here, most costs
(registration, insurance) fall for older vehicles -- though
maintenance costs can climb (but you likely \"have a friend\"
who\'s similarly strapped for cash who has learned a bit about
car repair).

Japan charges a 10% surtax on older cars

 

[bitrex]

On 6/9/2022 3:55 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:

They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn\'t have the
infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn\'t the
infrastructure to support it. News?

When everybody has an EV and there isn\'t enough grid power to charge
them will that be news to you?

I\'m sure glad there\'s never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
measures to control (limit) demand!


There\'s no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just
stop subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn\'t really
want to do the former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the
former biz starts coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while
that is.

Most of the \"subsidies\" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer\'s parts department?
Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
one that has failed in your EV?  What modifications can you make to the
drivetrain?  Plant?

Jeez, you think I go to the DEALER for regular service? I\'ve been to the
dealer like once in my plug-in\'s lifetime for warranty service on the
shifter, it had a fault that affects several other GM vehicles. Probably
80% of the car is built from the regular GM parts bin. I don\'t need any
kind of special tech to do the brakes or rotate the tires or stuff like
that.

Actually I\'ve never had the brakes done since I bought it, with
regenerative braking they wear very slowly. At the last service they
tell me it\'ll probably need them at 80k so probably good until winter.

No you can\'t buy a 3rd party battery or motor for it at this time, and
it\'s probably difficult to modify in general.

Can you buy a 3rd party motor or transmission for a late-model Corvette?
Is it easy to mod? Probably yes to the first question and no to the
second, how many people in the US are there well-qualified to
performance mod a C8 Corvette and produce anything nicer than they
started with (beyond futzing with the ECU in software.) The modding
market for late-model cars is so small as to be economically irrelevant.

Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
have in your vehicle\'s future?

[Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that \"po\' foke\" can afford?

Ever? Ever is a long time, and used cars depreciate. Used cars in
general are holding their value pretty well right now, but you can get a
low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If you\'re
ok with going older and higher miles than that you can do better than that.

Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles
and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that\'s true for just
about any used car affordable by the very low income, it\'s a crapshoot.
I\'ve been very low income when I was younger and know what it\'s like to
gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable
enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it ain\'t fun.

An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of \"driving capacity\" that
he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
the fuel.  Can you buy a \"cheaper\" version of an EV that is only useful
for 20 mile/day travel?  And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
you do so, practically?

E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average.  Rarely more than 20 miles
at a time.

Eh? The ICE buyer (assuming cost no object) can choose their stock fuel
tank capacity up to about a factor of 2.5, a mid size car these days
tends to have a fuel tank of about 15-18 gallons, a compact car maybe
10-12, and it\'s difficult to find anything stock with a tank capacity
over 30. Maybe on a few of the biggest trucks and SUVs/fuel thirsty
high-end luxury cars like a Rolls Royce with an aux tank or something,
don\'t know offhand.

Don\'t know why meanwhile some hypothetical EV model should have to have
a select able battery capacity that varies over a factor of 20

But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
And, don\'t have to resort to an \"extended range\" version of the vehicle
to do so.  And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
of \"trim level\"/price point.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

Every car is the greatest thing
since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill you\'re not
going to piss in anybody\'s Wheaties.

One of the local rags publishes a \"Best of\" edition: \"Best taco shop\", \"Best
barber\", \"Best ...\". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs. Best
steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best business with
fewer than 5 parking spaces.

[I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a \"best\"!]

Of course, they post the results.

And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: \"Voted \'Best\' for
three years running!\"

Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and results),
they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco shop
happened to change in the interim).