Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:02:09 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 10:08:39 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible transportation.
40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
As I pointed out, you can\'t depend upon the range to exhaustion. What happens if you only get 39 miles? Pushing that car even one mile would be a good feat for the Strongest Man Contest.
I got towing service, or just to jump charge from another vehicle. Charging from a good 12V source gets 2 to 3 miles per hour.
On May 20, John Doe wrote:
They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
how\'s that going to affect the earth\'s albedo? The solar energy
currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay earthbound.... drive
your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of the day... global
warming, hello!
Interesting point. Doesn\'t apply to something like solar roofing panels,
since that heat goes into the surrounding area if the sunlight isn\'t
converted into electricity. Reflective roofing panels would be rough on
aircraft.
The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
is zero, everything thermalizes -
I will say that it is clear you don\'t understand what global warming is
about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy
conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in
the process.
Let\'s find salvation in windmills.
Questions:
How much CO2 is released during the construction of the concrete
foundation of the apparatus?
How many Joules does the windmill generate, in its lifetime?
How much CO2 is spewed by the burning of petroleum and gas,
to produce the same quantity of energy?
If the net CO2 footprint of the hydrocarbons is greater than the windmill,
what is the temperature increase due to that extra CO2?
What is the $$ higher operational cost of the windmill, compared to hydrocarbons?
How much is the reduction in warming worth? i.e. what price are you
willing to pay, for that expected reduction?
It\'s notable that the econazis never address these fundamental questions,
don\'t even acknowledge them, which overload their brains, and forbidden
by the Thought Police.
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible transportation.
40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don\'t last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
...
Not according to this.
\"The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years\"
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 10:08:39 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible transportation.
40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
As I pointed out, you can\'t depend upon the range to exhaustion. What happens if you only get 39 miles? Pushing that car even one mile would be a good feat for the Strongest Man Contest.
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn\'t sound like sensible transportation.
40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
LOL!!! What you drive is a DIY BEV. No one else on earth, with any sense at least, is doing what you are doing. Meanwhile, literally millions of BEVs are sold each year and the numbers are rising exponentially for now.
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:13:40 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don\'t last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
...
Not according to this.
\"The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years\"
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
Averages are very poor numbers to use for this. Much more realistic is the median. A car can only be scrapped at 0 years at a minimum, while there is no maximum. If half the cars are toast after, say 12 years, it would only take a few reaching 20 years plus, to push the average to 15 years.
Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in news:ce03511b-0553-492f-
a517-8bc0...@googlegroups.com:
You have reading and learning disabilities.
You are an abject idiot. And you have electrical engineering
disabilities.
Nice attempt at yet another invalid assessment.
Just like your invalid assessment of how a bank of cells (battery)
operates, much less ages.
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 07:16:02 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:13:40 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don\'t last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
...
Not according to this.
\"The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years\"
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
Averages are very poor numbers to use for this. Much more realistic is the median. A car can only be scrapped at 0 years at a minimum, while there is no maximum. If half the cars are toast after, say 12 years, it would only take a few reaching 20 years plus, to push the average to 15 years.
I\'m not sure what point you are making.
I agree that for populations with an asymmetric distribution a median would be better but I didn\'t find any supporting data for that.
Even the average is probably not as sensitive to long lived individuals as you indicate.
For example if half of the cars were scrapped on their 12th birthday and the other half on their 20th the median (and average) would be 16 years. Cars being scrapped before their 12th birthday would bring down the median (and average).
It would take more than just \"a few\" cars reaching 20 years to shift the average to 15 years.
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 12:19:15 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
...
Your statement: \"A waning battery takes more juice to charge and gets you less output\" is ludicrous.
It\'s not ludicrous - but it is not of great significance with Li-ion batteries.
There are a couple of effects that can cause the efficiency to be lower as the battery ages.
The internal resistance increases as the battery gets older that reduces the efficiency of discharge. The wasted energy on both discharge and charge requires more energy from the charger during recharging.
The self-discharge rate also increases with aging, this also requires more energy to be restored during recharging. The self-discharge rate for Li-ion batteries is pretty low but for lead-acid and NiMH chemistries it can be very significant.
Both effects are probably swamped by the reduction in capacity so may not be noticed unless specifically measured.
kw
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 2:20:44 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 07:16:02 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:13:40 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don\'t last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
...
Not according to this.
\"The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years\"
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
Averages are very poor numbers to use for this. Much more realistic is the median. A car can only be scrapped at 0 years at a minimum, while there is no maximum. If half the cars are toast after, say 12 years, it would only take a few reaching 20 years plus, to push the average to 15 years.
I\'m not sure what point you are making.
I\'m making the point that the \"average\", aka \"mean\" is not a useful metric for understanding how many cars are on the roads of a given age. A better number is the median, where 50% of the cars built in a given year are no longer on the roads.
I agree that for populations with an asymmetric distribution a median would be better but I didn\'t find any supporting data for that.
Even the average is probably not as sensitive to long lived individuals as you indicate.
??? That\'s exactly what I\'m saying and is true for cars where there is a long tail of people who don\'t drive so much or simply don\'t mind fixing them when they break.
For example if half of the cars were scrapped on their 12th birthday and the other half on their 20th the median (and average) would be 16 years. Cars being scrapped before their 12th birthday would bring down the median (and average).
It would take more than just \"a few\" cars reaching 20 years to shift the average to 15 years.
Except that there are very few cars scrapped before the 12 year number you picked, very few. My experience is there are significant people who keep a vehicle until it is simply no longer worth running. That can be a while. Your hypothetical is not remotely realistic. A realistic curve of the number of cars remaining of a model year, would be nearly flat for the first some years with very few members removed other than the few by accidents. Then as, say 10 years is approached, the curve starts to fall a bit from high mileage driving taking it\'s toll, getting steeper over the next few years. so by something like perhaps 15 years, the majority of cars will have been scrapped. The curve would taper off once the number gets low enough, becoming a bit of a half life like curve. This curve is hard to visually pick a mean while a median is very simple, the point where the remaining number on the road is half the initial value. It\'s also hard to see how the initial part of the curve has very little impact on the mean, because what is being counted is actually the slope of the line, not the value.
So draw the graph that actually makes sense. The number of scrapped cars in each year. Initially it\'s very low, rising as the median is approached and falling away afterward with the peak at about the median. The fall, however, will be slower, partly because there are fewer cars on the road, but also because it\'s in a region where those people keep fixing them. So the long tail would move the mean above the median by some two or so years in my estimate.
As you say, we don\'t have the data to actually calculate this. Hmmm.... I did see something like this at one point, but I don\'t remember where.
Even if it did, that would only make the average lifetime about the same as in the US where the claim was made that in the UK the cars last 20 years.
Except that the same issue applies to the US number.
If anything I wouldn\'t be surprised if cars in the UK are scrapped earlier than in the US because of the national, fairly stringent, annual MOT safety check that is mandated or the car registration cannot be renewed. In my experience than can easily cause the car to be scrapped because the repair cost can exceed the value of the vehicle. Many states in the US have similar requirements but also many don\'t, California doesn\'t; only emissions are checked every three years.
I won\'t argue that.
....
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 12:12:07 PM UTC-7,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in news:ce03511b-0553-492f-
a517-8bc0...@googlegroups.com:
You have reading and learning disabilities.
You are an abject idiot. And you have electrical engineering
disabilities.
Nice attempt at yet another invalid assessment.
Just like your invalid assessment of how a bank of cells
(battery) operates, much less ages.
Your statement: \"A waning battery takes more juice to charge and
gets you less output\" is ludicrous.
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 12:19:15 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
...
Your statement: \"A waning battery takes more juice to charge and
gets you less output\" is ludicrous.
It\'s not ludicrous - but it is not of great significance with
Li-ion batteries.
There are a couple of effects that can cause the efficiency to be
lower as the battery ages.
The internal resistance increases as the battery gets older that
reduces the efficiency of discharge. The wasted energy on both
discharge and charge requires more energy from the charger during
recharging.
The self-discharge rate also increases with aging, this also
requires more energy to be restored during recharging. The
self-discharge rate for Li-ion batteries is pretty low but for
lead-acid and NiMH chemistries it can be very significant.
Both effects are probably swamped by the reduction in capacity so
may not be noticed unless specifically measured.
kw
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 1:29:10 PM UTC-7,
ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 12:19:15 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
...
Your statement: \"A waning battery takes more juice to charge
and gets you less output\" is ludicrous.
It\'s not ludicrous - but it is not of great significance with
Li-ion batteries.
There are a couple of effects that can cause the efficiency to be
lower as the battery ages.
The internal resistance increases as the battery gets older that
reduces the efficiency of discharge. The wasted energy on both
discharge and charge requires more energy from the charger during
recharging.
The self-discharge rate also increases with aging, this also
requires more energy to be restored during recharging. The
self-discharge rate for Li-ion batteries is pretty low but for
lead-acid and NiMH chemistries it can be very significant.
Both effects are probably swamped by the reduction in capacity so
may not be noticed unless specifically measured.
kw
It\'s ludicrously insignificant,
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 13:29:23 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 2:20:44 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 07:16:02 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:13:40 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don\'t last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
...
Not according to this.
\"The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years\"
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
Averages are very poor numbers to use for this. Much more realistic is the median. A car can only be scrapped at 0 years at a minimum, while there is no maximum. If half the cars are toast after, say 12 years, it would only take a few reaching 20 years plus, to push the average to 15 years.
I\'m not sure what point you are making.
I\'m making the point that the \"average\", aka \"mean\" is not a useful metric for understanding how many cars are on the roads of a given age. A better number is the median, where 50% of the cars built in a given year are no longer on the roads.
I agree that for populations with an asymmetric distribution a median would be better but I didn\'t find any supporting data for that.
Even the average is probably not as sensitive to long lived individuals as you indicate.
??? That\'s exactly what I\'m saying and is true for cars where there is a long tail of people who don\'t drive so much or simply don\'t mind fixing them when they break.
For example if half of the cars were scrapped on their 12th birthday and the other half on their 20th the median (and average) would be 16 years.. Cars being scrapped before their 12th birthday would bring down the median (and average).
It would take more than just \"a few\" cars reaching 20 years to shift the average to 15 years.
Except that there are very few cars scrapped before the 12 year number you picked, very few. My experience is there are significant people who keep a vehicle until it is simply no longer worth running. That can be a while.. Your hypothetical is not remotely realistic. A realistic curve of the number of cars remaining of a model year, would be nearly flat for the first some years with very few members removed other than the few by accidents. Then as, say 10 years is approached, the curve starts to fall a bit from high mileage driving taking it\'s toll, getting steeper over the next few years. so by something like perhaps 15 years, the majority of cars will have been scrapped. The curve would taper off once the number gets low enough, becoming a bit of a half life like curve. This curve is hard to visually pick a mean while a median is very simple, the point where the remaining number on the road is half the initial value. It\'s also hard to see how the initial part of the curve has very little impact on the mean, because what is being counted is actually the slope of the line, not the value.
So draw the graph that actually makes sense. The number of scrapped cars in each year. Initially it\'s very low, rising as the median is approached and falling away afterward with the peak at about the median. The fall, however, will be slower, partly because there are fewer cars on the road, but also because it\'s in a region where those people keep fixing them. So the long tail would move the mean above the median by some two or so years in my estimate.
As you say, we don\'t have the data to actually calculate this. Hmmm.... I did see something like this at one point, but I don\'t remember where.
Even if it did, that would only make the average lifetime about the same as in the US where the claim was made that in the UK the cars last 20 years.
Except that the same issue applies to the US number.
If anything I wouldn\'t be surprised if cars in the UK are scrapped earlier than in the US because of the national, fairly stringent, annual MOT safety check that is mandated or the car registration cannot be renewed. In my experience than can easily cause the car to be scrapped because the repair cost can exceed the value of the vehicle. Many states in the US have similar requirements but also many don\'t, California doesn\'t; only emissions are checked every three years.
I won\'t argue that.
...
With an asymmetric data set such as we have here the median will be lower than the average so if the average is 15 years (13.9 for UK) the median will be somewhat lower.
I have found some data for the from NHTSA (unfortunately 15 years old from 2006) with vehicle survivability data.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/809952
Table 1 shows the vehicle age against survival :
By the 10th year almost 30% of cars have been scrapped. The median is between 12 and 13 years. Less than 8% survive for 20 years.
With modern cars the reason for a car being scrapped may be relatively trivial. About 15 years ago my seven year old BMW required $1,000 to repair the central locking system (it would lock everyone in the car except for the driver, it was just a faulty relay in a non-repairable module) and $800 to repair the radiator fan motor controller that was integrated into the radiator. The car was worth about $10,000 when I sold it shortly after. It wouldn\'t take many of those types of failures to make the car economically unviable.
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
You won\'t get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the \"no battery\" range.
WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don\'t dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:35:10 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
opportunity won\'t tell
you that.
Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
salts have useful
concentrations of that element There\'s lots of those, and the most
economic are being
mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
The metal isn\'t
rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
big premium.
I quote er.... you, with \"the most economic are being mined now\" -
it\'s gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
Whoosh! So again.... \"the most economic are being mined now\", so what
does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
The question is how less economic.
The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It\'s a rare element.
Lithium is not a rare element ....
The approximate amount of lithium on earth is between 30 and 90 million tons.
Cars require 20 million tons. Rather close.... so can we really mine two thirds of it, and then recycle 100% of that forever more?