Surge protector is a lie?...

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
No wonder people believe in man made climate change.

My first attempt at multiplication past the times table was a disaster.
The teach knew something was up since I achieved a perfect 0 on the test
but she couldn\'t understand what. I\'d gotten the algorithm a bit wrong so
for 2 x 18 I would write down 6, carry the 1, add it to 1, multiply by 2
for a grand total of 46.

Years later an algebra teacher would stand over me and rant \'You skip
steps! Most of the time you have the right answer but if you don\'t I have
no idea what you did.\'

More years later I appreciated her when I\'d see proofs up the line of

this long line of gobbledygook is obviously that much shorter line of
gobbledygook. It might be obvious to you, Jack...

 

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 16:19:28 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:22:59 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

There was nothing like that in Michigan when I graduated from high
school.
A high school diploma was a high school diploma, no matter if you got
it
from Cass Tech or Snake Navel High. You got it if you passed enough of
your high school classes.

I don\'t know if a Regents diploma bought you much

Your big mouth didn\'t? Hard to believe you never used your grandiloquent
bullshitting and bragging \"talents\" to make money with.

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
\"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you\'re going for a coronary might as well
do it right.\"
MID: <ivdi4gF8btlU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:04:38 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 09:37:54 -0800 (PST), Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

People read that a $10 outlet strip can work magic and protect them from bad stuff. There\'s very little you can to to protect your equipment actually. The worst stuff seems to be from the phone lines, rather than the power lines. Probably because there is much less load on the phone lines, so the voltage can spike higher.

Those devices that are connected to multiple networks, such as mains,
phone, CATV etc. are at greater risk and are hardest to protect.
Typically each of these networks are grounded at different places.
While in normal situations these grounding points are in a similar
potential, but during a surge several kA can flow into only one
network grounding point. Due to grounding resistance (and inductance),
this current will cause a ground bounce of hundred or thousand volts
on the whole network.

For example a lightning strike into phone system will cause a ground
bounce at the telephone exchange elevating the whole telephone network
potential. The mains network potential may be undisturbed.

If you have a device, such as modem, connected to both mains and phone
network, the elevated potential on the phone network may flash over
to the mains network grounding electrode, burning a lot of PCB traces
on the way.

A device connected to only one network such as a passive telephone,
may jump to several kV due to ground bounce without damage, since
there are no paths to ground. Of course it is not a good idea to use
the phone during a thunderstorm, since you may get a spark from the
elevated potential of the headphone into your ear .

I used to work with alarm systems. I was called to fix a system on top of a ridge. It was in the garage and had been the victim of a local lightning strike. The panel circuit board was fried. Once that was replaced, the loop was open, so standard procedure is to explore, looking for the point where voltage is lost. I quickly found an open in the wire itself. It had a scorch mark and a break in the wire where it ran through a hole in the joist next to the power cable. Fixed it and... still open, lather rinse, repeat. I don\'t recall how many opens I found. I may have given up and run a new loop wire. But whatever I did, I know I didn\'t run them through the same holes as the power cables and kept some distance between them.

I wonder how many volts it takes to arc through the two layers of insulation?

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 16:43:29 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> My first attempt at multiplication past the times table was a disaster.

HIGHLY interesting! Thanks for yet another exciting detail from your so very
interesting life, drama queen! LOL

--
More of the senile gossip\'s absolutely idiotic senile blather:
\"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn\'t do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
\'We keep God\'s time in Virginia.\'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while.\"

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1@dont-email.me>

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:26:04 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
<hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

I certainly don\'t remember long division. I guess I could figure out
how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I\'d ever
have to.

I can still do long division. I do pencil-and-paper calculations
pretty frequently. Sometimes it\'s quicker than bringing up a calculator
app.

I had a physics professor who could multiply quite large numbers
(IIRC three digits by three digits) in his head faster than we could
punch them into our calculators.

I can\'t do that, probably not even slowly, but when supermarket cash
registers displayed the price as each item was rung up, I used to keep a
running total in my head. I was always off by one dime, never a penny
or a dollar, and never just right either.

 

[Bob F]

On 3/12/2023 12:08 PM, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:26:04 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

I certainly don\'t remember long division. I guess I could figure out
how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I\'d ever
have to.

I can still do long division. I do pencil-and-paper calculations
pretty frequently. Sometimes it\'s quicker than bringing up a calculator
app.

I had a physics professor who could multiply quite large numbers
(IIRC three digits by three digits) in his head faster than we could
punch them into our calculators.

I can\'t do that, probably not even slowly, but when supermarket cash
registers displayed the price as each item was rung up, I used to keep a
running total in my head. I was always off by one dime, never a penny
or a dollar, and never just right either.

The are many methods of doing large multiplication or division in your
head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
called.

Here is one method for multiplication I quickly found.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-discover-the-perfect-way-to-multiply-20190411/

 

[Bob F]

On 3/12/2023 2:18 PM, Bob F wrote:

On 3/12/2023 12:08 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:26:04 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

I certainly don\'t remember long division. I guess I could figure out
how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I\'d ever
have to.

I can still do long division.  I do pencil-and-paper calculations
pretty frequently.  Sometimes it\'s quicker than bringing up a calculator
app.

I had a physics professor who could multiply quite large numbers
(IIRC three digits by three digits) in his head faster than we could
punch them into our calculators.

I can\'t do that, probably not even slowly, but when supermarket cash
registers displayed the price as each item was rung up, I used to keep a
running total in my head.  I was always off by one dime, never a penny
or a dollar, and never just right either.

The are many methods of doing large multiplication  or division in your
head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
called.

Here is one method for multiplication I quickly found.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-discover-the-perfect-way-to-multiply-20190411/

I think this might be the method I read about earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:40:11 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:

On 3/12/2023 2:18 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 3/12/2023 12:08 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:26:04 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hami...@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

I certainly don\'t remember long division. I guess I could figure out
how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I\'d ever
have to.

I can still do long division. I do pencil-and-paper calculations
pretty frequently. Sometimes it\'s quicker than bringing up a calculator
app.

I had a physics professor who could multiply quite large numbers
(IIRC three digits by three digits) in his head faster than we could
punch them into our calculators.

I can\'t do that, probably not even slowly, but when supermarket cash
registers displayed the price as each item was rung up, I used to keep a
running total in my head. I was always off by one dime, never a penny
or a dollar, and never just right either.

The are many methods of doing large multiplication or division in your
head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
called.

Here is one method for multiplication I quickly found.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-discover-the-perfect-way-to-multiply-20190411/

I think this might be the method I read about earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system

I can do multiplications in my head, but only for certain cases where I can find shortcuts. Otherwise the shortcut can be a longcut.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:18:17 -0700, Bob F wrote:

The are many methods of doing large multiplication or division in your
head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
called.

https://artofmemory.com/wiki/Trachtenberg_System/

That\'s the one I learned as a kid. \"The Trachtenberg Speed System of Basic
Mathematics\" came out in 1960. I had a lot more functioning neurons in
those days. The explanation is complex but once you get the idea it\'s
fairly simple.

 

[John Larkin]

On 13 Mar 2023 02:57:20 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:30:16 -0700, John Larkin wrote:


Free42 is a really nice HP calc emulator for a smartphone. For people
who like Reverse Polish.


I still have my HP-16C. If the RPN doesn\'t get them leaving it laying
around in octal or hex mode will.

One of the languages I\'ve used is FORTH. It\'s a RPN threaded interpreted
language so putting numbers on the stack prior to the operators came
naturally.

https://www.tinaja.com/

Don Lancaster is a rather strange guy who discovered PostScript can be
used as a general purpose RPN language and did some rather strange things
with it.

I think I have his \'Active Filter Cookbook\' around here someplace. It\'s a
little long in the tooth but so am I and it uses components I can see
without 4x magnifiers.

Yes, that\'s a good book.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 2:22:12 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On 13 Mar 2023 02:57:20 GMT, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:30:16 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

<snip>

Don Lancaster is a rather strange guy who discovered PostScript can be
used as a general purpose RPN language and did some rather strange things
with it.

I think I have his \'Active Filter Cookbook\' around here someplace. It\'s a
little long in the tooth but so am I and it uses components I can see
without 4x magnifiers.

Yes, that\'s a good book.

If undemanding

Williams and Taylor\'s \"Electronic Filter Design handbook\" - ISBN 0-07-070430-9 for the third edition - is a bit more serious.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Peeler]

On 13 Mar 2023 02:43:46 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

https://artofmemory.com/wiki/Trachtenberg_System/

That\'s the one I learned as a kid. \"The Trachtenberg Speed System of Basic
Mathematics\" came out in 1960. I had a lot more functioning neurons in
those days. The explanation is complex but once you get the idea it\'s
fairly simple.

So, did your mouth take over later, or was your special \"talent\" noticeable
already back then, bigmouth?

--
More of the pathological senile gossip\'s sick shit squeezed out of his sick
head:
\"Skunk probably tastes like chicken. I\'ve never gotten that comparison,
most famously with Chicken of the Sea. Tuna is a fish and tastes like a
fish. I will admit I\'ve had chicken that tasted like fish. I don\'t think I
want to know what they were feeding it.\"
MID: <k44t5lFl1k3U4@mid.individual.net>

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2023-03-12, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-03-11 09:35, Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to connect
an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable
comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front which says
\"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if
it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of varistors as expected, but
the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of
fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.  So.... it blows the fusewire as soon
as there\'s an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of
it anyway?  What\'s the point in that?

Guessing, the varistors absorb a quick surge, and the \"fuse\" doesn\'t
blow. If the surge is enough to blow the electronics and cause them to
short circuit, the \"fuse\" blows and avoids the gadget to cause damage to
the rest of the house. Of course, the spike could still blow the house,
but you will not be able to sue Micromark for it.

Varistors usually fail short-circuit, hence the fuse. There\'s no
point wasting money on a breaker in that position.




--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

 

[Andrew]

On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:

On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to
connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
no cable comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front
which says \"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see
how it knew if it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of
varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there\'s an infinitely tiny
surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of it anyway?  What\'s the point
in that?

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV or
computer.  I had problems with all before using surge protectors. Living
in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension line to
houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

All the places where I have seen this happens there is always
an additional bare copper earth line above the 3 phases
and neutral, and this extra earth is connected to earth
at each of the supporting poles.

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.

 

[Frank]

On 3/15/2023 12:12 PM, Andrew wrote:

On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:
On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to
connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
no cable comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front
which says \"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see
how it knew if it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of
varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there\'s an infinitely tiny
surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of it anyway?  What\'s the
point in that?

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV
or computer.  I had problems with all before using surge protectors.
Living in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension
line to houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

All the places where I have seen this happens there is always
an additional bare copper earth line above the 3 phases
and neutral, and this extra earth is connected to earth
at each of the supporting poles.

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.

I do not know about their wiring here. Service to my street is
underground but above ground leads to it. In the past I recall wet
branches falling causing the short between HT and LT.

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-4, Andrew wrote:

On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:
On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to
connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front
which says \"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see
how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of
varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there\'s an infinitely tiny
surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of it anyway? What\'s the point
in that?

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV or
computer. I had problems with all before using surge protectors. Living
in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension line to
houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

LOL! They run electric and phone and cable on the same poles. Electric is on top with phone and cable beneath. That way the phone and cable guys don\'t need to use HV procedures and equipment. But a cross is absolutely a possibility and procedures are in place to minimize the risk.

Higher voltage power lines are not run on the same poles as lower voltage lines, because they have different requirements for height, conductor separation and design of the structure. Also, there\'s no use, the two sets of wires run between different places.

There\'s no limit to the amount of urban myths regarding power line surges. People hear something that sounds good, now it becomes fact to them.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:

On 3/15/2023 12:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:
On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to
connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front
which says \"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see
how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of
varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there\'s an infinitely tiny
surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of it anyway? What\'s the
point in that?

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV
or computer. I had problems with all before using surge protectors.
Living in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension
line to houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

All the places where I have seen this happens there is always
an additional bare copper earth line above the 3 phases
and neutral, and this extra earth is connected to earth
at each of the supporting poles.

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.
I do not know about their wiring here. Service to my street is
underground but above ground leads to it. In the past I recall wet
branches falling causing the short between HT and LT.

Why would different voltage power lines be running on the same poles??? By \"LT\", do you mean phone and cable?

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[server]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:14:57 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 12:25:05?PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 3/15/2023 12:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.

Sounds like Aerial Bundled Cable (ABC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bundled_cable

I do not know about their wiring here. Service to my street is
underground but above ground leads to it. In the past I recall wet
branches falling causing the short between HT and LT.

Why would different voltage power lines be running on the same poles??? By \"LT\", do you mean phone and cable?

IEC defines Low Voltage as 50 to 1000 Vac. Below 50 V is Extra-low
Voltage (ELV) and above 1000 Vac high voltage.
,

 

[ehsjr]

On 3/15/2023 1:13 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-4, Andrew wrote:
On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:
On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to
connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front
which says \"protection active\", so I opened it to look inside to see
how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of
varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there\'s an infinitely tiny
surge, so therefore can\'t absorb much of it anyway? What\'s the point
in that?

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV or
computer. I had problems with all before using surge protectors. Living
in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension line to
houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

LOL! They run electric and phone and cable on the same poles. Electric is on top with phone and cable beneath. That way the phone and cable guys don\'t need to use HV procedures and equipment. But a cross is absolutely a possibility and procedures are in place to minimize the risk.

Higher voltage power lines are not run on the same poles as lower voltage lines, because they have different requirements for height, conductor separation and design of the structure. Also, there\'s no use, the two sets of wires run between different places.

Huh? Higher voltage power lines feed the input to the
\"Pole Pig\" (the transformer on the pole) and lower voltage
(240 V) power lines exit the transformer. Laterals are
connected from those low voltage lines to houses. Maybe
you can clarify what you mean by higher voltage and
lower voltage?

Ed

There\'s no limit to the amount of urban myths regarding power line surges. People hear something that sounds good, now it becomes fact to them.

 

[Vir Campestris]

On 15/03/2023 16:12, Andrew wrote:

On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV
or computer.  I had problems with all before using surge protectors.
Living in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension
line to houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

All the places where I have seen this happens there is always
an additional bare copper earth line above the 3 phases
and neutral, and this extra earth is connected to earth
at each of the supporting poles.

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.

The way this is done may vary between the US and UK. This is
cross-posted to international groups.

Andy