reduce 125VAC to 120VAC, small form factor, and clean 60Hz s

John Larkin · Apr 10, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:39:59 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:48:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:10:30 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:47:23 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:48:43 -0500, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Apr 3, 1:10 pm, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

news:fmkol855vrrjgo6tvge7eg2tbhngseicbl@4ax.com...

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:47:02 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

Two occasional (electrical) causes of hum in electric motors (specifically
ceiling fans) are overvoltage and a noisy sine-wave.

A cheapish motor may saturate at high line voltage and create its own
harmonics.

A series inductor would be a good fix for both sorts of problems. It would
reduce the motor voltage and somewhat filter external harmonics. A series
cap
would help with the over-voltage but not externals.

Ceiling fans are great (we have no air conditioning in San Francisco and it
does
get warm once in a while) as long as they are quiet.

***************
Thank you for the reply. Jamie's reply to my post mentioned a Line Reactor
which appears to incorporate a series of inductors. I am reading more about
this now. I have suspected line noise is the true culprit and overvoltage
is a side-effect.

Core saturation in the motor has been discussed in the past with the
manufacturers (regarding heat rise), but the motors are designed to operate
at the median of saturation (at the normal voltage range) to limit heat
rise. I will bring this idea up again in regards to noise.

Scott

That should be pretty easy to test. At least the over-voltage part.
Variac's typically go a bit ~10% overvoltage so you could see (or
hear) if the over voltage is the problem. If not .. then getting rid
of the line noise is a filtering issue. I would think there would be
some commercial pi or Tee low pass inline filters... but I don't have
any experience with AC power stuff.

George H.

A variac will hide noise and give you a false conclusion, Hence using
some sort of induction coupling, common mode style preferable.

Jamie

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

---
Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed
them.

---
Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time I was wrong about
something, so instead of dodging and running your big mouth, why don't
you post that 1kHz VARIAC data?

See the link that Paul posted, variac rated to 2 KHz.

A variac is a single-layer-wound toroid with a high-quality laminated steel
core. Leakage inductance is low and core loss is not a big deal, if it's
operated from a stiff source like the AC line. It;s pretty obvious that it would
work up into the KHz, and even more obvious that it will accurately pass a 60 Hz
voltage with some smaller harmonics on top, which was the situation with the fan
noise.

You don't know much about electronics, but you like to take bitchy contrary
positions, for emotional reasons, which makes you usually wrong. Playing bad
music or writing awful poetry don't require emotional discipline, but
electronics does.

---
You're preaching to the choir, asshole.

So you agree with John. You know nothing about electronics, you're a
bitchy contrarian, emotional, and wrong. You play bad music (don't
know but you admit to it), write awful poetry (we have had that
unfortunate exposure), and have no emotional discipline. That about
sums you up.

Amazing.

I can get these guys to disagree about almost anything! (And look very
stupid doing it.)

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

Apr 10, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:48:35 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:28:00 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:04:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:39:59 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:48:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:10:30 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:47:23 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:48:43 -0500, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Apr 3, 1:10 pm, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

news:fmkol855vrrjgo6tvge7eg2tbhngseicbl@4ax.com...

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:47:02 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

Two occasional (electrical) causes of hum in electric motors (specifically
ceiling fans) are overvoltage and a noisy sine-wave.

A cheapish motor may saturate at high line voltage and create its own
harmonics.

A series inductor would be a good fix for both sorts of problems. It would
reduce the motor voltage and somewhat filter external harmonics. A series
cap
would help with the over-voltage but not externals.

Ceiling fans are great (we have no air conditioning in San Francisco and it
does
get warm once in a while) as long as they are quiet.

***************
Thank you for the reply. Jamie's reply to my post mentioned a Line Reactor
which appears to incorporate a series of inductors. I am reading more about
this now. I have suspected line noise is the true culprit and overvoltage
is a side-effect.

Core saturation in the motor has been discussed in the past with the
manufacturers (regarding heat rise), but the motors are designed to operate
at the median of saturation (at the normal voltage range) to limit heat
rise. I will bring this idea up again in regards to noise.

Scott

That should be pretty easy to test. At least the over-voltage part.
Variac's typically go a bit ~10% overvoltage so you could see (or
hear) if the over voltage is the problem. If not .. then getting rid
of the line noise is a filtering issue. I would think there would be
some commercial pi or Tee low pass inline filters... but I don't have
any experience with AC power stuff.

George H.

A variac will hide noise and give you a false conclusion, Hence using
some sort of induction coupling, common mode style preferable.

Jamie

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

---
Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed
them.

---
Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time I was wrong about
something, so instead of dodging and running your big mouth, why don't
you post that 1kHz VARIAC data?

See the link that Paul posted, variac rated to 2 KHz.

A variac is a single-layer-wound toroid with a high-quality laminated steel
core. Leakage inductance is low and core loss is not a big deal, if it's
operated from a stiff source like the AC line. It;s pretty obvious that it would
work up into the KHz, and even more obvious that it will accurately pass a 60 Hz
voltage with some smaller harmonics on top, which was the situation with the fan
noise.

You don't know much about electronics, but you like to take bitchy contrary
positions, for emotional reasons, which makes you usually wrong. Playing bad
music or writing awful poetry don't require emotional discipline, but
electronics does.

---
You're preaching to the choir, asshole.

So you agree with John. You know nothing about electronics, you're a
bitchy contrarian, emotional, and wrong. You play bad music (don't
know but you admit to it), write awful poetry (we have had that
unfortunate exposure), and have no emotional discipline. That about
sums you up.

Amazing.

I see you've added lack of reading comprehension to your ignorance of
the workings of hydraulic servos.

Wrong and wrong, but I do notice that you, too, are trying for the
AlwaysWrong award. Between you three, it's going to be a busy month
for the judges.

You've become Larkinized. You think truth is whatever fallacy exists
in your mind. And again, like Larkin, that snarky/abusive language,
repeated louder and louder, trumps truth.

Wrong again, AlmostAlwaysWrong. I just don't care for the way you've
gotten to be an old hag. Alzheimer's must be rough.

You obviously either didn't read Larkin's complete statement, or you
had trouble comprehending a simple-minded statement... and what Fields
agreed with.

Wrong, again, AlmostAlwaysWrong. Fields' statement showed that he
agreed that he was an ignorant ass.

As for understanding power steering, let me nominate you for village
idiot of the year. No matter how much you claim that you're right,
every rational person here knows your wrong.

May your asshole be enlarged by a power-assisted rack-and-pinion so
that you and Ian can be exactly as your mentally-retarded speech
center continually invokes... "butt buddies".

You and Fields aren't quite joined at the hip, but close enough.

Change your Depends... your bad breath is wafting clear across the
country.

AlmostAlwaysWrong strikes again. You really are becoming a loser.

Apr 10, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:45:45 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:39:59 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:48:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:10:30 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:47:23 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:48:43 -0500, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Apr 3, 1:10 pm, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

news:fmkol855vrrjgo6tvge7eg2tbhngseicbl@4ax.com...

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:47:02 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

Two occasional (electrical) causes of hum in electric motors (specifically
ceiling fans) are overvoltage and a noisy sine-wave.

A cheapish motor may saturate at high line voltage and create its own
harmonics.

A series inductor would be a good fix for both sorts of problems. It would
reduce the motor voltage and somewhat filter external harmonics. A series
cap
would help with the over-voltage but not externals.

Ceiling fans are great (we have no air conditioning in San Francisco and it
does
get warm once in a while) as long as they are quiet.

***************
Thank you for the reply. Jamie's reply to my post mentioned a Line Reactor
which appears to incorporate a series of inductors. I am reading more about
this now. I have suspected line noise is the true culprit and overvoltage
is a side-effect.

Core saturation in the motor has been discussed in the past with the
manufacturers (regarding heat rise), but the motors are designed to operate
at the median of saturation (at the normal voltage range) to limit heat
rise. I will bring this idea up again in regards to noise.

Scott

That should be pretty easy to test. At least the over-voltage part.
Variac's typically go a bit ~10% overvoltage so you could see (or
hear) if the over voltage is the problem. If not .. then getting rid
of the line noise is a filtering issue. I would think there would be
some commercial pi or Tee low pass inline filters... but I don't have
any experience with AC power stuff.

George H.

A variac will hide noise and give you a false conclusion, Hence using
some sort of induction coupling, common mode style preferable.

Jamie

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

---
Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed
them.

---
Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time I was wrong about
something, so instead of dodging and running your big mouth, why don't
you post that 1kHz VARIAC data?

See the link that Paul posted, variac rated to 2 KHz.

A variac is a single-layer-wound toroid with a high-quality laminated steel
core. Leakage inductance is low and core loss is not a big deal, if it's
operated from a stiff source like the AC line. It;s pretty obvious that it would
work up into the KHz, and even more obvious that it will accurately pass a 60 Hz
voltage with some smaller harmonics on top, which was the situation with the fan
noise.

You don't know much about electronics, but you like to take bitchy contrary
positions, for emotional reasons, which makes you usually wrong. Playing bad
music or writing awful poetry don't require emotional discipline, but
electronics does.

---
You're preaching to the choir, asshole.

So you agree with John. You know nothing about electronics, you're a
bitchy contrarian, emotional, and wrong. You play bad music (don't
know but you admit to it), write awful poetry (we have had that
unfortunate exposure), and have no emotional discipline. That about
sums you up.

Amazing.

I can get these guys to disagree about almost anything! (And look very
stupid doing it.)

That's Fields' MO. Thompson's brain has shriveled up so much he's no
different. Sad, really.

John Larkin · Apr 10, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:48:38 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:45:45 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:39:59 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:48:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:10:30 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:47:23 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:48:43 -0500, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Apr 3, 1:10 pm, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

news:fmkol855vrrjgo6tvge7eg2tbhngseicbl@4ax.com...

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:47:02 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

Two occasional (electrical) causes of hum in electric motors (specifically
ceiling fans) are overvoltage and a noisy sine-wave.

A cheapish motor may saturate at high line voltage and create its own
harmonics.

A series inductor would be a good fix for both sorts of problems. It would
reduce the motor voltage and somewhat filter external harmonics. A series
cap
would help with the over-voltage but not externals.

Ceiling fans are great (we have no air conditioning in San Francisco and it
does
get warm once in a while) as long as they are quiet.

***************
Thank you for the reply. Jamie's reply to my post mentioned a Line Reactor
which appears to incorporate a series of inductors. I am reading more about
this now. I have suspected line noise is the true culprit and overvoltage
is a side-effect.

Core saturation in the motor has been discussed in the past with the
manufacturers (regarding heat rise), but the motors are designed to operate
at the median of saturation (at the normal voltage range) to limit heat
rise. I will bring this idea up again in regards to noise.

Scott

That should be pretty easy to test. At least the over-voltage part.
Variac's typically go a bit ~10% overvoltage so you could see (or
hear) if the over voltage is the problem. If not .. then getting rid
of the line noise is a filtering issue. I would think there would be
some commercial pi or Tee low pass inline filters... but I don't have
any experience with AC power stuff.

George H.

A variac will hide noise and give you a false conclusion, Hence using
some sort of induction coupling, common mode style preferable.

Jamie

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

---
Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed
them.

---
Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time I was wrong about
something, so instead of dodging and running your big mouth, why don't
you post that 1kHz VARIAC data?

See the link that Paul posted, variac rated to 2 KHz.

A variac is a single-layer-wound toroid with a high-quality laminated steel
core. Leakage inductance is low and core loss is not a big deal, if it's
operated from a stiff source like the AC line. It;s pretty obvious that it would
work up into the KHz, and even more obvious that it will accurately pass a 60 Hz
voltage with some smaller harmonics on top, which was the situation with the fan
noise.

You don't know much about electronics, but you like to take bitchy contrary
positions, for emotional reasons, which makes you usually wrong. Playing bad
music or writing awful poetry don't require emotional discipline, but
electronics does.

---
You're preaching to the choir, asshole.

So you agree with John. You know nothing about electronics, you're a
bitchy contrarian, emotional, and wrong. You play bad music (don't
know but you admit to it), write awful poetry (we have had that
unfortunate exposure), and have no emotional discipline. That about
sums you up.

Amazing.

I can get these guys to disagree about almost anything! (And look very
stupid doing it.)

That's Fields' MO. Thompson's brain has shriveled up so much he's no
different. Sad, really.

JF is always wrong about Variacs. JT knows nothing about Variacs.

Which is preferable?

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

Jim Thompson · Apr 10, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:48:38 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:45:45 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:39:59 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:48:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 07:10:30 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:47:23 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:48:43 -0500, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Apr 3, 1:10 pm, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message

news:fmkol855vrrjgo6tvge7eg2tbhngseicbl@4ax.com...

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:47:02 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamt...@dcorp.com> wrote:

Two occasional (electrical) causes of hum in electric motors (specifically
ceiling fans) are overvoltage and a noisy sine-wave.

A cheapish motor may saturate at high line voltage and create its own
harmonics.

A series inductor would be a good fix for both sorts of problems. It would
reduce the motor voltage and somewhat filter external harmonics. A series
cap
would help with the over-voltage but not externals.

Ceiling fans are great (we have no air conditioning in San Francisco and it
does
get warm once in a while) as long as they are quiet.

***************
Thank you for the reply. Jamie's reply to my post mentioned a Line Reactor
which appears to incorporate a series of inductors. I am reading more about
this now. I have suspected line noise is the true culprit and overvoltage
is a side-effect.

Core saturation in the motor has been discussed in the past with the
manufacturers (regarding heat rise), but the motors are designed to operate
at the median of saturation (at the normal voltage range) to limit heat
rise. I will bring this idea up again in regards to noise.

Scott

That should be pretty easy to test. At least the over-voltage part.
Variac's typically go a bit ~10% overvoltage so you could see (or
hear) if the over voltage is the problem. If not .. then getting rid
of the line noise is a filtering issue. I would think there would be
some commercial pi or Tee low pass inline filters... but I don't have
any experience with AC power stuff.

George H.

A variac will hide noise and give you a false conclusion, Hence using
some sort of induction coupling, common mode style preferable.

Jamie

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

---
Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed
them.

---
Well, it wouldn't be the first or the last time I was wrong about
something, so instead of dodging and running your big mouth, why don't
you post that 1kHz VARIAC data?

See the link that Paul posted, variac rated to 2 KHz.

A variac is a single-layer-wound toroid with a high-quality laminated steel
core. Leakage inductance is low and core loss is not a big deal, if it's
operated from a stiff source like the AC line. It;s pretty obvious that it would
work up into the KHz, and even more obvious that it will accurately pass a 60 Hz
voltage with some smaller harmonics on top, which was the situation with the fan
noise.

You don't know much about electronics, but you like to take bitchy contrary
positions, for emotional reasons, which makes you usually wrong. Playing bad
music or writing awful poetry don't require emotional discipline, but
electronics does.

---
You're preaching to the choir, asshole.

So you agree with John. You know nothing about electronics, you're a
bitchy contrarian, emotional, and wrong. You play bad music (don't
know but you admit to it), write awful poetry (we have had that
unfortunate exposure), and have no emotional discipline. That about
sums you up.

Amazing.

I can get these guys to disagree about almost anything! (And look very
stupid doing it.)

That's Fields' MO. Thompson's brain has shriveled up so much he's no
different. Sad, really.

Jim Thompson · Apr 11, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:00:09 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

[snip]

Queers of a feather, Larkin/Ian/krw, flock together.

...Jim Thompson

And Domino is your friend >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

John Fields · Apr 11, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

--
JF

John Larkin · Apr 11, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:19:39 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:12:13 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:07:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:53:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:29:19 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamtrap@dcorp.com
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
news:9tbtl8p3gsg2m4a8sa64pdrs1p5ki1mln2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:01:07 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:31:34 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

A ceiling fan might use one amp maybe, and if you want to drop 10 volts
or so, a
single series inductor of roughly 30 to maybe 100 millihenries would do
it.

---
Instead of giving a man a fish, why not teach a man how to fish?

What do fish have to do with ceiling fans?

---
Oh, my!!!

The subject is acoustic noise from an induction motor. Not fish!

JF has been studying his cliche book again, and not his EE texts.

---
Not a cliche at all, just a variation of: "Give a man a fish and
you've fed him for a day; show him how to fish and you've fed him for
the rest of his life."

Trivial, tedious, predictable fathead.

---
Ah, the name-calling ad-hominem attack we've come to expect, again and
again, from Larkin.

I'd much rather criticize something that you say about electronics, but you do
that so seldom.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

John Larkin · Apr 11, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:58:08 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

Well, do you have the capability or not? [1]

And you snipped the serious question: what do you think would be the failure
mode of a variac at a KHz or two?

[1] I have a Peavey 800 watt dual-channel PA amp and a bunch of step-up and
step-down transformers, and a precise polyphase sine wave generator. I can make
a very stable voltage up to 480, or current up to 200 amps.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

John Fields · Apr 11, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:35:47 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:58:08 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

Well, do you have the capability or not? [1]

---
Yup.
---

And you snipped the serious question: what do you think would be the failure
mode of a variac at a KHz or two?

---
Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.
---

I have a Peavey 800 watt dual-channel PA amp and a bunch of step-up and
step-down transformers, and a precise polyphase sine wave generator. I can make
a very stable voltage up to 480, or current up to 200 amps.

---
I have a Denon POA-800, so I can only drive a load with about 150
clean watts.

Enough to characterize a 1.5kVA variac at far below its ratings.

Since you claim to have all of the big guns...
--
JF

John Larkin · Apr 11, 2013

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:34:21 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:35:47 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:58:08 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

Well, do you have the capability or not? [1]

---
Yup.
---

And you snipped the serious question: what do you think would be the failure
mode of a variac at a KHz or two?

---
Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.

What in the world could all that word salad blather possibly mean?

What, specifically, is a Variac going to do as the frequency is
increased from 60 Hz to 1 KHz?

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

John Fields · Apr 12, 2013

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:14:54 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:34:21 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:35:47 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:58:08 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

Well, do you have the capability or not? [1]

---
Yup.
---

And you snipped the serious question: what do you think would be the failure
mode of a variac at a KHz or two?

---
Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.

What in the world could all that word salad blather possibly mean?

---
Blather because you don't understand it, perhaps?
---

What, specifically, is a Variac going to do as the frequency is
increased from 60 Hz to 1 KHz?

---

Why don't you tell us, then test your variac and see whether your
predictions were correct.

BTW, which variac are you using?

Manufacturer, Model/Part number?

And just as aside, the "K" in your "KHz" should be lower case, Mr.
Perfect.

--
JF

John Fields · Apr 12, 2013

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:30:06 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:19:39 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:12:13 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:07:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:53:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:29:19 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamtrap@dcorp.com
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
news:9tbtl8p3gsg2m4a8sa64pdrs1p5ki1mln2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:01:07 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:31:34 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

A ceiling fan might use one amp maybe, and if you want to drop 10 volts
or so, a
single series inductor of roughly 30 to maybe 100 millihenries would do
it.

---
Instead of giving a man a fish, why not teach a man how to fish?

What do fish have to do with ceiling fans?

---
Oh, my!!!

The subject is acoustic noise from an induction motor. Not fish!

JF has been studying his cliche book again, and not his EE texts.

---
Not a cliche at all, just a variation of: "Give a man a fish and
you've fed him for a day; show him how to fish and you've fed him for
the rest of his life."

Trivial, tedious, predictable fathead.

---
Ah, the name-calling ad-hominem attack we've come to expect, again and
again, from Larkin.

I'd much rather criticize something that you say about electronics, but you do
that so seldom.

---
I often post on-topic material, and the reason - if you read it - you
don't criticize it is because it's beyond reproach.

--
JF

Jim Thompson · Apr 12, 2013

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:38:31 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:14:54 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:34:21 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:35:47 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:58:08 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:43:03 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:14:33 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:07:37 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:59:23 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 18:52:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:55:41 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:63a9m8p7rbb0k0ni9r98el90o1hmnc4uck@4ax.com...

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:10:14 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Variacs are usually pretty wideband, up to a KHz at least.

Got some data to support your claim?

As I recall, you were wrong about Variacs the last time we discussed them.

They are perfectly fine and rated for full output up to 2kHz, at least for
moderate size units (2kVA):
http://www.danaherspecialtyproducts.com/uploadedFiles/Siteroot/Superior_Electric/Products_and_Solutions/POWERSTAT%C2%AE_Variable_Transformers/126-226(pg16-19).PDF

Thanks, Paul,

I'd recalled that Variacs were pretty good at audio frequencies. Even most big
ole EI transformers are useful up into the KHz.

JF: Happy now?

---
Well, not entirely, since that data only applies to Paul's variac, and
yours was a blanket statement.

Idiot. Whining to the max.

---
Wow, "whining", to you, is anything you take umbrage at, huh?

Seems like it's becoming your mantra.
---

I have a Thordarson VAR-104 (120V 50/60 Hz in, 0->140V 10A out) which
I'll run some tests on and post the results in the next day or so.

If you have a variac, why don't you do the same and then we can
compare all three sets of data.

Oh, but wait...

You don't do that sort of thing because you might find you were wrong
and we just can't have that, can we?.

I have no doubt that most any Variac will work fine at a KHz or two.

Where will you get 120 VAC at KHz frequencies?

---
Tricky bitch wants to change streams in mid-horse by trying to
discredit the experiment before it's even done!
---

I have the gear to do that, but it's not worth setting up.

---
Just another Larkin dodge.

Time out of my life is certainly worth at least as much as out of
yours, so if you don't want to play, why should I be the little red
hen?
---

I know about how a steel-laminated single-layer toroid will behave.

---
La-dee-da...

Then prove it in the real world, using real hardware, instead of in
that creepy Walter Mitty universe you've created for yourself.

Paul posted a link to a variac that is rated to 2 KHz. If I were to
test our variac, it would just prove that one more variac works at KHz
frequencies, which wouldn't satisfy you at all.

---
Not true.

Take the time to do the tests, post the test conditions and the data,
and we'll talk.
---

Sounds like you don't actually have a way to generate 120VAC over a
wide frequency range.

---
Mindless conjecture/wishful thinking.

Well, do you have the capability or not? [1]

---
Yup.
---

And you snipped the serious question: what do you think would be the failure
mode of a variac at a KHz or two?

---
Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.

What in the world could all that word salad blather possibly mean?

---
Blather because you don't understand it, perhaps?
---

What, specifically, is a Variac going to do as the frequency is
increased from 60 Hz to 1 KHz?

---

Why don't you tell us, then test your variac and see whether your
predictions were correct.

BTW, which variac are you using?

Manufacturer, Model/Part number?

And just as aside, the "K" in your "KHz" should be lower case, Mr.
Perfect.

Mr. "Perfect" ?? Mr. "Head Up Ass" is more appropriate >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

P E Schoen · Apr 12, 2013

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:s86em81bhs0q8glvlh9mnh0skad6its081@4ax.com...

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:34:21 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.

What in the world could all that word salad blather possibly mean?

What, specifically, is a Variac going to do as the frequency is
increased from 60 Hz to 1 KHz?

This is getting rather silly, and JF seems to be grasping at straws. Toroids
are often used for high quality audio and high efficiency power transformers
because they have much less leakage inductance than EI and other core types.
Here is some information on toroidal power transformers where the corner
frequency is about 50 kHz:
http://www.toruspower.com/nbt-narrow-bandwidth-technology/

Even the lowest corner frequency was 3 kHz, but this was in the context of a
low pass filter where it was desired to attenuate higher frequency
components of power line noise. But it seems evident that these toroids work
well at high audio frequencies. My own measurements were supposed to
determine if a given core size for 60 Hz could be used at higher frequencies
and correspondingly higher voltage and power levels.

The results indicate that there will be higher core loss at higher frequency
which may be proportional to the square root of frequency, so if my toroid
has 0.5% core loss at 60 Hz it may have 1% at 240 Hz and 2% at 1 kHz and 4%
at 4 kHz. But that is also accompanied by total power capacity increase from
80 VA at 60 Hz to 1.3 kVA at 1 KHz. Thus there may be 26W of core loss, but
that may be acceptable if the smaller size is a major advantage.

Here is another link that may be helpful (although JF may never accept that
he is wrong):
http://www.ipst.org/TechPapers/2003/IPST03Paper9c-3.pdf

This is specifically for medium voltage (600V-5kV) conventional current
transformers (which are usually silicon steel tape wound toroids), and it
shows good linearity and phase shift up to at least 50 kHz, which is vital
for transient response in electronic protection systems.

According to the following information, standard Talema toroidal
transformers are rated only to 450 Hz, but with other core materials
frequencies up to 100kHz are possible. Tape wound cores with high nickel
content allow higher frequencies.

http://www.talema.net/en/products/pdf/Trafo%20Catalog%20-%20English%20Feb-08.pdf

Here is an interesting article on the "Variac":
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/variac.htm

Paul

Apr 12, 2013

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:59:54 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:30:06 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:19:39 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:12:13 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:07:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:53:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:29:19 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamtrap@dcorp.com
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
news:9tbtl8p3gsg2m4a8sa64pdrs1p5ki1mln2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:01:07 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:31:34 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

A ceiling fan might use one amp maybe, and if you want to drop 10 volts
or so, a
single series inductor of roughly 30 to maybe 100 millihenries would do
it.

---
Instead of giving a man a fish, why not teach a man how to fish?

What do fish have to do with ceiling fans?

---
Oh, my!!!

The subject is acoustic noise from an induction motor. Not fish!

JF has been studying his cliche book again, and not his EE texts.

---
Not a cliche at all, just a variation of: "Give a man a fish and
you've fed him for a day; show him how to fish and you've fed him for
the rest of his life."

Trivial, tedious, predictable fathead.

---
Ah, the name-calling ad-hominem attack we've come to expect, again and
again, from Larkin.

I'd much rather criticize something that you say about electronics, but you do
that so seldom.

---
I often post on-topic material, and the reason - if you read it - you
don't criticize it is because it's beyond reproach.

Like your hair-balls? Too funny!

Jim Thompson · Apr 12, 2013

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:01:25 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:59:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:30:06 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:19:39 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:12:13 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:07:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:53:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:29:19 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamtrap@dcorp.com
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
news:9tbtl8p3gsg2m4a8sa64pdrs1p5ki1mln2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:01:07 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:31:34 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

A ceiling fan might use one amp maybe, and if you want to drop 10 volts
or so, a
single series inductor of roughly 30 to maybe 100 millihenries would do
it.

---
Instead of giving a man a fish, why not teach a man how to fish?

What do fish have to do with ceiling fans?

---
Oh, my!!!

The subject is acoustic noise from an induction motor. Not fish!

JF has been studying his cliche book again, and not his EE texts.

---
Not a cliche at all, just a variation of: "Give a man a fish and
you've fed him for a day; show him how to fish and you've fed him for
the rest of his life."

Trivial, tedious, predictable fathead.

---
Ah, the name-calling ad-hominem attack we've come to expect, again and
again, from Larkin.

I'd much rather criticize something that you say about electronics, but you do
that so seldom.

---
I often post on-topic material, and the reason - if you read it - you
don't criticize it is because it's beyond reproach.

Like your hair-balls? Too funny!

John Larkin · Apr 13, 2013

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:31:53 -0400, "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:s86em81bhs0q8glvlh9mnh0skad6its081@4ax.com...

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:34:21 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Because "Failure mode" is a bit too harsh, I think, since they're
designed to take a lot of abuse.

However, if you want to play specmanship, we might talk about the
increase of turn-to-turn leakage reactance with respect to frequency,
and the leakage from winding to core.

What in the world could all that word salad blather possibly mean?

What, specifically, is a Variac going to do as the frequency is
increased from 60 Hz to 1 KHz?

This is getting rather silly, and JF seems to be grasping at straws. Toroids
are often used for high quality audio and high efficiency power transformers
because they have much less leakage inductance than EI and other core types.
Here is some information on toroidal power transformers where the corner
frequency is about 50 kHz:
http://www.toruspower.com/nbt-narrow-bandwidth-technology/

Even if the laminations in a variac are optimized for cost at 60 Hz, core losses
will still be moderate at, say, 1 KHz. The OP was concerned with 60 Hz plus
harmonics, so in that case the HF component would be small, so core loss is not
an issue at all.

At high line frequencies, leakage inductance will soften up the load regulation
a bit, but toroids have very low leakage inductance. With the Variac in/out
ratio anywhere near 1.0, inductive effects are still smaller.

Yes, JF is flailing, tossing around words as if he understands what they mean.

Even the lowest corner frequency was 3 kHz, but this was in the context of a
low pass filter where it was desired to attenuate higher frequency
components of power line noise. But it seems evident that these toroids work
well at high audio frequencies. My own measurements were supposed to
determine if a given core size for 60 Hz could be used at higher frequencies
and correspondingly higher voltage and power levels.

The results indicate that there will be higher core loss at higher frequency
which may be proportional to the square root of frequency, so if my toroid
has 0.5% core loss at 60 Hz it may have 1% at 240 Hz and 2% at 1 kHz and 4%
at 4 kHz. But that is also accompanied by total power capacity increase from
80 VA at 60 Hz to 1.3 kVA at 1 KHz. Thus there may be 26W of core loss, but
that may be acceptable if the smaller size is a major advantage.

Here is another link that may be helpful (although JF may never accept that
he is wrong):
http://www.ipst.org/TechPapers/2003/IPST03Paper9c-3.pdf

This is specifically for medium voltage (600V-5kV) conventional current
transformers (which are usually silicon steel tape wound toroids), and it
shows good linearity and phase shift up to at least 50 kHz, which is vital
for transient response in electronic protection systems.

According to the following information, standard Talema toroidal
transformers are rated only to 450 Hz, but with other core materials
frequencies up to 100kHz are possible. Tape wound cores with high nickel
content allow higher frequencies.

http://www.talema.net/en/products/pdf/Trafo%20Catalog%20-%20English%20Feb-08.pdf

Here is an interesting article on the "Variac":
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/variac.htm

Paul

Nice, but I don't understand the line...

"Care is needed to ensure that the variac's current rating is not exceeded at
low brightness settings, where filament resistance is much lower than normal."

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

John Fields · Apr 13, 2013

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:12:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:38:31 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

And just as aside, the "K" in your "KHz" should be lower case, Mr.
Perfect.

Mr. "Perfect" ?? Mr. "Head Up Ass" is more appropriate >:-}

...Jim Thompson
---

I like sardonicism better.

--
JF

John Fields · Apr 13, 2013

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:01:25 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:59:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:30:06 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:19:39 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:12:13 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:07:07 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:53:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:29:19 -0400, "ScottWW" <spamtrap@dcorp.com
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
news:9tbtl8p3gsg2m4a8sa64pdrs1p5ki1mln2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:01:07 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 18:31:34 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

A ceiling fan might use one amp maybe, and if you want to drop 10 volts
or so, a
single series inductor of roughly 30 to maybe 100 millihenries would do
it.

---
Instead of giving a man a fish, why not teach a man how to fish?

What do fish have to do with ceiling fans?

---
Oh, my!!!

The subject is acoustic noise from an induction motor. Not fish!

JF has been studying his cliche book again, and not his EE texts.

---
Not a cliche at all, just a variation of: "Give a man a fish and
you've fed him for a day; show him how to fish and you've fed him for
the rest of his life."

Trivial, tedious, predictable fathead.

---
Ah, the name-calling ad-hominem attack we've come to expect, again and
again, from Larkin.

I'd much rather criticize something that you say about electronics, but you do
that so seldom.

---
I often post on-topic material, and the reason - if you read it - you
don't criticize it is because it's beyond reproach.

Like your hair-balls? Too funny!

---
We all post hairballs from time to time, except for you, who hasn't -
as I recall - ever posted a schematic of something he designed.

I wonder why???

--
JF

reduce 125VAC to 120VAC, small form factor, and clean 60Hz s

John Larkin

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