PRC as a amplifier in GPS question.

[Damian]

"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fb6366$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com...

On 12/02/2014 10:53 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

For some reason, I can't see Paul's original posting.

Paul, I don't see how you can ever be sure in the case if LiIon
batteries. The chemistry is inherently dangerous, and is kept in check
only by electronics that is intended to prevent the cells from reaching
the point where they will ignite. Clearly, there have been a number of
failures in the design of the electronics, even with companies that
might be assumed to be competent in this area.


Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model car
and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them unless
they are deliberately mistreated.
I've got lots of them here and never had the slightest problem with any of
them, all of our 6 RC helis use them and despite numerous crashes we have
had no battery problems.
Maybe Boeing should consult the hobby industry to look for someone that
has a clue

Try throwing a Lithium Iron battery into a bonfire and stand couple of feet
from the fire.

The limited number of fatalities are due to extra care in handling, storing
and using them.

 

[Adrian Jansen]

On 12/2/2014 9:50 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 12/02/2014 10:17 PM, Damian wrote:
"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

Personally, in my aircraft, I accept the weight penalty of batteries
that don't auto ignite and sustain combustion.
--

Paul, does this mean commercial aircrafts don't use lithium ion
batteries at
all?



Boeing have addressed the problem by redesigning the battery containment
so that the aircraft allegedly remains safe *even if* the battery
catches fire.

Sylvia.

And in doing so, they ended up with a battery system which weighed more
than the original NiCd battery they were replacing. Reason for the
original design change to LiIon ? It was lighter.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

 

[D Walford]

On 12/02/2014 11:28 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 12/02/2014 11:02 PM, D Walford wrote:
On 12/02/2014 10:53 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

For some reason, I can't see Paul's original posting.

Paul, I don't see how you can ever be sure in the case if LiIon
batteries. The chemistry is inherently dangerous, and is kept in check
only by electronics that is intended to prevent the cells from reaching
the point where they will ignite. Clearly, there have been a number of
failures in the design of the electronics, even with companies that
might be assumed to be competent in this area.


Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model car
and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them unless
they are deliberately mistreated.
I've got lots of them here and never had the slightest problem with any
of them, all of our 6 RC helis use them and despite numerous crashes we
have had no battery problems.
Maybe Boeing should consult the hobby industry to look for someone that
has a clue



How a Boeing aircraft got into strife so quickly is troubling.

Makes me wonder about the competence of their engineering.

Statistically, the vast majority of these batteries never catch fire
before they wear out, so the fact that you haven't seen any do it
doesn't say very much. But a quick search will show that LiIon batteries
do catch fire from time to time.

I've seen a few youtube vids of RC batteries on fire but its always been
deliberate, the battery has reached the end of its life so some clown
thinks its fun to set it on fire, never seen one burn by accident.


--
Daryl

 

[D Walford]

On 13/02/2014 12:48 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:

D Walford wrote:

Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model
car and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them
unless they are deliberately mistreated.

Not so.

I use Lithium battery packs to run HID lights on my bicycle. The
Chinese cheapies last about as long in serfvice as "good' battery packs
that cost nearly 5 times as much.

The difference is the protection circuitry.

I have had one of the "cheap-n-cheerfuls" go up on me and have formed
the view that lithium battery packs should be charged only while
sitting in a metal bucket full of fine sand. Bear in mind you are
talking about a battery pack not much bigger than a dolphin torch
battery that I am pretty sure would have sufficient energy to start a
car.

I don't doubt that the odd one or two can be problematic but in my
experience its not common, unlike Nicads the lithium batteries I own
barely get warm when they are being charged.
Maybe its me, I read and follow instructions and don't try and charge a
battery with a current higher than recommended which is what causes
problems.

--
Daryl

 

[D Walford]

On 13/02/2014 2:57 AM, Damian wrote:

"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fb6366$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com...
On 12/02/2014 10:53 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

For some reason, I can't see Paul's original posting.

Paul, I don't see how you can ever be sure in the case if LiIon
batteries. The chemistry is inherently dangerous, and is kept in check
only by electronics that is intended to prevent the cells from reaching
the point where they will ignite. Clearly, there have been a number of
failures in the design of the electronics, even with companies that
might be assumed to be competent in this area.


Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model car
and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them unless
they are deliberately mistreated.
I've got lots of them here and never had the slightest problem with any of
them, all of our 6 RC helis use them and despite numerous crashes we have
had no battery problems.
Maybe Boeing should consult the hobby industry to look for someone that
has a clue

Try throwing a Lithium Iron battery into a bonfire and stand couple of feet
from the fire.

I've seen that on youtube but its abuse not use so its not relevant.

The limited number of fatalities are due to extra care in handling, storing
and using them.

Using them as per manufacturers instructions will rarely cause problems.


--
Daryl

 

[felix_unger]

On 12-February-2014 10:53 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

For some reason, I can't see Paul's original posting.

Paul, I don't see how you can ever be sure in the case if LiIon
batteries. The chemistry is inherently dangerous, and is kept in check
only by electronics that is intended to prevent the cells from
reaching the point where they will ignite. Clearly, there have been a
number of failures in the design of the electronics, even with
companies that might be assumed to be competent in this area.

are you talking about consumer batteries.. AA, D cell, etc., ?

Sylvia.

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
“People sleep peacefully in their beds only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf”

 

[Damian]

"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fbfbb0$0$11090$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

On 13/02/2014 12:48 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:
D Walford wrote:

Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model
car and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them
unless they are deliberately mistreated.

Not so.

I use Lithium battery packs to run HID lights on my bicycle. The
Chinese cheapies last about as long in serfvice as "good' battery packs
that cost nearly 5 times as much.

The difference is the protection circuitry.

I have had one of the "cheap-n-cheerfuls" go up on me and have formed
the view that lithium battery packs should be charged only while
sitting in a metal bucket full of fine sand. Bear in mind you are
talking about a battery pack not much bigger than a dolphin torch
battery that I am pretty sure would have sufficient energy to start a
car.

I don't doubt that the odd one or two can be problematic but in my
experience its not common, unlike Nicads the lithium batteries I own
barely get warm when they are being charged.
Maybe its me, I read and follow instructions and don't try and charge a
battery with a current higher than recommended which is what causes
problems.

Interesting.
All my chargers for NiCDs and NiMHs do heat the batteries up.
The provide a nominal current which usually consistent with the what is
printed on the battery.
(8 hours of charging at 350mA, 8 hours of charging at 600mA, etc).
I have a DickSmith charger which does NiMHs and cuts off the current once
the batteries are 'fully' charged.
That charger never over charge the NiCDs or NiMHs. Batteries never get hot.
Yet, it doesn't fully charge the
batteries. I know that 'cos they discharge quickly when I use that charger.

 

[Damian]

"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fbfc19$0$11090$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

On 13/02/2014 2:57 AM, Damian wrote:
"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fb6366$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com...
On 12/02/2014 10:53 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

"Paul Saccani" <saccani@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:7t3mf91r8d06us6pn0lrib53tcgoaragok@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:52:04 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:


Given that even Boeing was unable to source LiIon batteries that
wouldn't catch fire, I'd be very wary.

Sorry Sylvia, that is not at all true. Boeing were quite able to
source Lithium Ion batteries that would not catch fire, they were not
willing to accept the weight penalty of those, and even after the
battery fires, they elected not to accept that penalty but use an
alternative means of compliance.

For some reason, I can't see Paul's original posting.

Paul, I don't see how you can ever be sure in the case if LiIon
batteries. The chemistry is inherently dangerous, and is kept in check
only by electronics that is intended to prevent the cells from reaching
the point where they will ignite. Clearly, there have been a number of
failures in the design of the electronics, even with companies that
might be assumed to be competent in this area.


Funny how Lithium batteries of various types have been used in model car
and aircraft for years and there is nothing dangerous about them unless
they are deliberately mistreated.
I've got lots of them here and never had the slightest problem with any
of
them, all of our 6 RC helis use them and despite numerous crashes we
have
had no battery problems.
Maybe Boeing should consult the hobby industry to look for someone that
has a clue

Try throwing a Lithium Iron battery into a bonfire and stand couple of
feet
from the fire.


I've seen that on youtube but its abuse not use so its not relevant.

I think you totally missed my point.
The fires of the appliances that carry LiIon bats are usually not started by
LiIon bats.
But, they can go bang as a result of the fire.
Can you see the relevance now?

The limited number of fatalities are due to extra care in handling,
storing
and using them.


Using them as per manufacturers instructions will rarely cause problems.

The explosions aren't ususally caused by misuse of batteries. Rather misuse
of the appliance that carries them.

 

[F Murtz]

news13 wrote:

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 09:31:24 +1000, Jeßus wrote:


I already have solar panels, my main interest is in the fact that we run
a wood heater or stove here most of the year, so plenty of energy in the
form of heat to exploit.

At one stage, in one of the alternate small farm mags, Earth Garden
or ????, there was a guy selling complete steam generators. It just comes
down to steam driving a piston which uses an arm to drive a flywheel
turning a generator/alternator.

Just have to own a Forrest and pile the wood on all day.

 

[news13]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 19:17:48 +0800, Kennedy wrote:

Peltiers are great little devices, I reckon supercheap and others with
their cheap arse coolers have given them a bad name!

I think silicon chip did a project with them once but the 5A draw was a
bit much for my interests/needs at the time.

 

[Kennedy]

On 19-Apr-14 11:59 PM, news13 wrote:

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:41:14 +0800, Kennedy wrote:

On 19-Apr-14 1:43 PM, news13 wrote:

Somewhere in the past, I think it was Scientific American, was a really
humungous one that some one built. Costs an arm and a leg for the wire,
then it is a fiddly construction. Major problems with insulation so you
can pack it down. It at least produced usable energy.


Are you confusing thermocouple thermopiles & peltier devices?

The one in SA was a massive combination of thermocouples.
Does that make a themopile?

I know what a peltier is; it is what you get in those crap coolers eskies
they sell in auto places and other.

Yeah, as far as I know that's what thermopiles are. They are/were used
in nuclear based thermal power supplies in satellites.

Peltiers are great little devices, I reckon supercheap and others with
their cheap arse coolers have given them a bad name!

 

[Toby]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:08:03 +0000 (UTC), news13 blathered on in:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 19:17:48 +0800, Kennedy wrote:


Peltiers are great little devices, I reckon supercheap and others with
their cheap arse coolers have given them a bad name!

Inclined to agree

I think silicon chip did a project with them once but the 5A draw was a
bit much for my interests/needs at the time.

Yup - nil advantage, really, though there's a 'space' factor in there.


therein the problem.
A compressor driven machine drawing similar will generally do better
than the solid state stuff insofar as what it 'costs' to run.
Lately we've come to realize that the majors are actually taking the
trouble to build their more mechanically complicated product well enough
to run reliably for well over their warranty times and then some.
OTOH since we've had absolutely shit peltier stuff pushed at us for so
many years, now no-one out there is prepared to believe they're worth
buying...eva. And that's even if there are some decent examples of the
marque out there.... somewhere.
Of course Waeco/Dometic and similar would dearly love to get their
peltier stuff to top of consumer mind - it's pretty obvously well
cheaper to produce and a bonus price point is there for the taking -
just under the mini-compressor-powered stuff for a similar performance
level.
I, for one, aren't playing. The yardstick? If product literature
suggests pre-chilling the stuff you're about to need to keep cool - it's
not getting my 'ardearned.

--
Toby

 

[news13]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:49:52 +1000, Toby wrote:

A compressor driven machine drawing similar will generally do better
than the solid state stuff insofar as what it 'costs' to run.

Yep, we have an Evakool; 7-L camping fridge/freezer that draws 5A@12V and
will definitely freeze soft drink bottles of water.

Of course Waeco/Dometic and similar would dearly love to get their
peltier stuff to top of consumer mind - it's pretty obvously well
cheaper to produce and a bonus price point is there for the taking -
just under the mini-compressor-powered stuff for a similar performance
level.

A lot have compressors these days, if electric only.
Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own freezer
(?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

I, for one, aren't playing. The yardstick? If product literature
suggests pre-chilling the stuff you're about to need to keep cool - it's
not getting my 'ardearned.

Parents have had a string of those little things and after the first warm
stuff event, mum started treated them just like an esky with pre-frozen
blocks of stuff in them. Eventually she got dad to realise they were a
waste of money and they have returned to a simple esky now.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-04-21, news13 <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:49:52 +1000, Toby wrote:


A compressor driven machine drawing similar will generally do better
than the solid state stuff insofar as what it 'costs' to run.

Yep, we have an Evakool; 7-L camping fridge/freezer that draws 5A@12V and
will definitely freeze soft drink bottles of water.


Of course Waeco/Dometic and similar would dearly love to get their
peltier stuff to top of consumer mind - it's pretty obvously well
cheaper to produce and a bonus price point is there for the taking -
just under the mini-compressor-powered stuff for a similar performance
level.

A lot have compressors these days, if electric only.
Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own freezer
(?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

(!) with glycol it'd be an anti-freezer

you need something volatile like propane, ammonia, or freon,
for the coolant.





--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[news13]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 06:25:59 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:

Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own
freezer (?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

(!) with glycol it'd be an anti-freezer

you need something volatile like propane, ammonia, or freon, for the
coolant.

I thought it was something other than a gas.

 

[news13]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:12:49 +1000, Noddy wrote:

On 22/04/14 4:33 PM, news13 wrote:

I thought it was something other than a gas.

Lol

And you know your welding gases. Yeah, right

Yes Noddy(the welding gas and grange hermitage wood duck), I know MY
welding gases, but you have never told us why you have yours, just a copy
& paste of BOC info.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-04-22, news13 <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 06:25:59 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:


Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own
freezer (?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

(!) with glycol it'd be an anti-freezer

you need something volatile like propane, ammonia, or freon, for the
coolant.

I thought it was something other than a gas.

When compressed it becomes "other than gas". That is how propane
is kept liquid in the bottle. When the pressure is released it boils
and becomes cold.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[jonz]

On 4/22/2014 6:53 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2014-04-22, news13 <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 06:25:59 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:


Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own
freezer (?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

(!) with glycol it'd be an anti-freezer

you need something volatile like propane, ammonia, or freon, for the
coolant.

I thought it was something other than a gas.

When compressed it becomes "other than gas". That is how propane
is kept liquid in the bottle. When the pressure is released it boils
and becomes cold.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
It boils and becomes gaseous.

--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Noddy]

On 22/04/14 4:33 PM, news13 wrote:

> I thought it was something other than a gas.

Lol

And you know your welding gases. Yeah, right



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[Toby]

On 22 Apr 2014 06:25:59 GMT, Jasen Betts blathered on in:

On 2014-04-21, news13 <newsthirteenspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:49:52 +1000, Toby wrote:


A compressor driven machine drawing similar will generally do better
than the solid state stuff insofar as what it 'costs' to run.

Yep, we have an Evakool; 7-L camping fridge/freezer that draws 5A@12V and
will definitely freeze soft drink bottles of water.


Of course Waeco/Dometic and similar would dearly love to get their
peltier stuff to top of consumer mind - it's pretty obvously well
cheaper to produce and a bonus price point is there for the taking -
just under the mini-compressor-powered stuff for a similar performance
level.

A lot have compressors these days, if electric only.
Somehwere on myswag.org is a project by a bloke who built his own freezer
(?)/fridge with compressor and glycol(?)

(!) with glycol it'd be an anti-freezer

you need something volatile like propane, ammonia, or freon,
for the coolant.

ahem... it might have been one of those Eutretic arrangements.

Glycol, Brine, whatever..
--
Toby