Personal CD player a Horror

P

Phil Allison

Guest
Hi to all,

A friend showed me his new personal CD player bought from Tandy yesterday -
an Aistar for $30. Comes with headphones and has 60 seconds of "anti shock"
and also as "bass boost" switch. Stick in a CD, pop on the phones and voila
music - but something sounded not right.

Tried some better grade phones ( same 32 ohm impedance) and the sound was
actually worse - fuzzy, edgy in an odd way. OK - so off to the test
bench and tried my Denon test CD and the *line output* viewed on a CRO.

A 1001 kHz test tone looked a bit furry - probably some HF residual in the
supersonic range, I though.

A 100 Hz square was almost perfect.

3150 Hz and 9999Hz test tone looked furrier than the 1001 Hz tone.


** OK - now back to the headphones and simply listening:


The 1001 Hz tone was furry because of wide band noise (hiss) - very audible
at maybe 30 dB below the tone.

The 9999 Hz tone sounded like several high frequency tones at once - bit
like a nail being scraped on a sheet of metal - plus the aforementioned
hissing noise.

BTW All the sine wave tones on the Denon CD are precision, 16 bit
digitally generated so test and sound perfect on a normal home CD player or
DVD player.

Some solo piano music was then tried on the Aistra and sounded just awful -
with a rough distortion like that from a worn stylus playing a worn and
noisy LP. This machine carries the usual Compact Disc Digital Audio logo -
but the makers obviously threw the Red Book standard right out the damn
window !!!!

My best hunch is that in order to make the 60 second "anti shock" music
memory cheap - not all 16 bits of each audio sample are stored but maybe
only 6 or 8 of them. This would cut 10.6MB of storage otherwise needed down
to 5.3 MB or less - plus explain the high noise levels.

Other DSP tricks maybe involved too of course.

The unit came with no specs whatever - a bad sign I suppose !

Are there similar units that have normal CD player performance ??

What do they cost ??



.............. Phil
 
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:53:35 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

Hi to all,

............. Phil

????????????????????
 
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:53:35 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

Hi to all,

A friend showed me his new personal CD player bought from Tandy yesterday -
an Aistar for $30. Comes with headphones and has 60 seconds of "anti shock"
and also as "bass boost" switch. Stick in a CD, pop on the phones and voila
music - but something sounded not right.

Tried some better grade phones ( same 32 ohm impedance) and the sound was
actually worse - fuzzy, edgy in an odd way. OK - so off to the test
bench and tried my Denon test CD and the *line output* viewed on a CRO.

A 1001 kHz test tone looked a bit furry - probably some HF residual in the
supersonic range, I though.

A 100 Hz square was almost perfect.

3150 Hz and 9999Hz test tone looked furrier than the 1001 Hz tone.


** OK - now back to the headphones and simply listening:


The 1001 Hz tone was furry because of wide band noise (hiss) - very audible
at maybe 30 dB below the tone.

The 9999 Hz tone sounded like several high frequency tones at once - bit
like a nail being scraped on a sheet of metal - plus the aforementioned
hissing noise.

BTW All the sine wave tones on the Denon CD are precision, 16 bit
digitally generated so test and sound perfect on a normal home CD player or
DVD player.

Some solo piano music was then tried on the Aistra and sounded just awful -
with a rough distortion like that from a worn stylus playing a worn and
noisy LP. This machine carries the usual Compact Disc Digital Audio logo -
but the makers obviously threw the Red Book standard right out the damn
window !!!!

My best hunch is that in order to make the 60 second "anti shock" music
memory cheap - not all 16 bits of each audio sample are stored but maybe
only 6 or 8 of them. This would cut 10.6MB of storage otherwise needed down
to 5.3 MB or less - plus explain the high noise levels.

Other DSP tricks maybe involved too of course.

The unit came with no specs whatever - a bad sign I suppose !

Are there similar units that have normal CD player performance ??

What do they cost ??



............. Phil



The maker probably assumes that most people wouldn't be able to tell
the difference, especially using the crap headphones that were
supplied wth the unit, and specially with the sort of music material
the targeted market probably listen to (ie: teens).

On this subject, Interesting editorial in SC (jan 05) regarding the
cheap asian sourced audio equipment flooding aus and that standards
and quality seem to be going out the window. Good example here it
would seem.
 
"paul packer" <packer@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:41d61cba.1331272@news.iprimus.com.au...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:53:35 +1100, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:


????????????????????
Re-read the first two words of the story and pick the outright lie ;-)

TT



PS - he has no friends.
 
"TT" <swatter@geo.net.au> wrote in message
news:41d64527$0$21874$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...
"paul packer" <packer@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:41d61cba.1331272@news.iprimus.com.au...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:53:35 +1100, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:


????????????????????


Re-read the first two words of the story and pick the outright lie ;-)

TT



PS - he has no friends.
If you have to explain a joke, its not funny ..



 
Personally i'd say what do you expect for $30 really :)



"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:33mhlhF41vgi6U1@individual.net...
Hi to all,

A friend showed me his new personal CD player bought from Tandy
yesterday - an Aistar for $30. Comes with headphones and has 60 seconds of
"anti shock" and also as "bass boost" switch. Stick in a CD, pop on the
phones and voila music - but something sounded not right.

Tried some better grade phones ( same 32 ohm impedance) and the sound was
actually worse - fuzzy, edgy in an odd way. OK - so off to the test
bench and tried my Denon test CD and the *line output* viewed on a CRO.

A 1001 kHz test tone looked a bit furry - probably some HF residual in
the supersonic range, I though.

A 100 Hz square was almost perfect.

3150 Hz and 9999Hz test tone looked furrier than the 1001 Hz tone.


** OK - now back to the headphones and simply listening:


The 1001 Hz tone was furry because of wide band noise (hiss) - very
audible at maybe 30 dB below the tone.

The 9999 Hz tone sounded like several high frequency tones at once - bit
like a nail being scraped on a sheet of metal - plus the aforementioned
hissing noise.

BTW All the sine wave tones on the Denon CD are precision, 16 bit
digitally generated so test and sound perfect on a normal home CD player
or DVD player.

Some solo piano music was then tried on the Aistra and sounded just
awful - with a rough distortion like that from a worn stylus playing a
worn and noisy LP. This machine carries the usual Compact Disc Digital
Audio logo - but the makers obviously threw the Red Book standard right
out the damn window !!!!
Redbook relates to the method of reading the data from the disc, not what
they do with it once they've read it .. Since it can play discs, it
obviously follows the standard ok :) Its just shit circuitry after it :)

My best hunch is that in order to make the 60 second "anti shock" music
memory cheap - not all 16 bits of each audio sample are stored but maybe
only 6 or 8 of them. This would cut 10.6MB of storage otherwise needed
down to 5.3 MB or less - plus explain the high noise levels.

Other DSP tricks maybe involved too of course.

The unit came with no specs whatever - a bad sign I suppose !

Are there similar units that have normal CD player performance ??

What do they cost ??
I'd say most units around $50 and upwards are probably going to meet most
"average" expectations ..

............. Phil
 
"Lord-Data"
"Phil Allison"
Redbook relates to the method of reading the data from the disc, not what
they do with it once they've read it .

** Wrong as usual.

( snip dopey tripe)




............. Phil
 
"Lord-Data" <data@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:41d62932$0$3599$61c65585@un-2park-reader-02.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
"TT" <swatter@geo.net.au> wrote in message
news:41d64527$0$21874$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...

"paul packer" <packer@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:41d61cba.1331272@news.iprimus.com.au...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:53:35 +1100, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:


????????????????????


Re-read the first two words of the story and pick the outright lie ;-)

TT



PS - he has no friends.

If you have to explain a joke, its not funny ..


I just can't win :-(

If I left the PS off someone would have said "What's funny about Hi to?"

TT ;-)
 
the $30 pcdp was not marketed for anyone who can tell the difference.
Can the anti shock be switched off, and retested?

most newer players now have perfect bit anti shock and many if not most
of the vintage older pcdp still sounds great despite their roll off.
btw: "1001 kHz test" u mean 1khz not 1mhz right?
 
"HIPSQR" <cyberburns@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1104581036.341592.74760@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
the $30 pcdp was not marketed for anyone who can tell the difference.
Can the anti shock be switched off, and retested?

most newer players now have perfect bit anti shock and many if not most
of the vintage older pcdp still sounds great despite their roll off.
btw: "1001 kHz test" u mean 1khz not 1mhz right?
*Note: To be read with extreme sarcasm and in a humorous tone ;-)

Oh dear now you've done it! Don't you know Quad Boy is infallible. He will
accuse you of all sorts deviant activity now. You just can't go around
willy nilly pointing out his errors. Don't you realise he failed an
illustrious Uni degree - without Honours?

But I'm impressed that a $30 player has 10 times the resolution of SACD.

Regards TT
 
Lord-Data wrote:

Personally i'd say what do you expect for $30 really :)
To some extent, yes.

But realize that most of the processing of the signal
is done inside a digital chip. And, given the same
size chip die and technology, a badly designed chip costs
the same as a well designed chip. Once the NRE is
paid for.

Maybe it was a badly designed 1 bit DAC? Bad noise
shaping/filtering?
 
got a hydandi for $100.00

its good but not excellent on mp3;s
"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:33mhlhF41vgi6U1@individual.net...
Hi to all,

A friend showed me his new personal CD player bought from Tandy
yesterday - an Aistar for $30. Comes with headphones and has 60 seconds of
"anti shock" and also as "bass boost" switch. Stick in a CD, pop on the
phones and voila music - but something sounded not right.

Tried some better grade phones ( same 32 ohm impedance) and the sound was
actually worse - fuzzy, edgy in an odd way. OK - so off to the test
bench and tried my Denon test CD and the *line output* viewed on a CRO.

A 1001 kHz test tone looked a bit furry - probably some HF residual in
the supersonic range, I though.

A 100 Hz square was almost perfect.

3150 Hz and 9999Hz test tone looked furrier than the 1001 Hz tone.


** OK - now back to the headphones and simply listening:


The 1001 Hz tone was furry because of wide band noise (hiss) - very
audible at maybe 30 dB below the tone.

The 9999 Hz tone sounded like several high frequency tones at once - bit
like a nail being scraped on a sheet of metal - plus the aforementioned
hissing noise.

BTW All the sine wave tones on the Denon CD are precision, 16 bit
digitally generated so test and sound perfect on a normal home CD player
or DVD player.

Some solo piano music was then tried on the Aistra and sounded just
awful - with a rough distortion like that from a worn stylus playing a
worn and noisy LP. This machine carries the usual Compact Disc Digital
Audio logo - but the makers obviously threw the Red Book standard right
out the damn window !!!!

My best hunch is that in order to make the 60 second "anti shock" music
memory cheap - not all 16 bits of each audio sample are stored but maybe
only 6 or 8 of them. This would cut 10.6MB of storage otherwise needed
down to 5.3 MB or less - plus explain the high noise levels.

Other DSP tricks maybe involved too of course.

The unit came with no specs whatever - a bad sign I suppose !

Are there similar units that have normal CD player performance ??

What do they cost ??



............. Phil
 
"robert casey"

But realize that most of the processing of the signal
is done inside a digital chip. And, given the same
size chip die and technology, a badly designed chip costs
the same as a well designed chip. Once the NRE is
paid for.

Maybe it was a badly designed 1 bit DAC? Bad noise
shaping/filtering?


** Focus on the 60 second "anti shock" feature - that is a non trivial
issue. Either most of the bits are not used or the data is converted to a
form of delta modulation to reduce the storage requirement.

Think of how a digital ( no moving parts) answering machine works.



................ Phil
 
Phil Allison wrote:

"robert casey"


But realize that most of the processing of the signal
is done inside a digital chip. And, given the same
size chip die and technology, a badly designed chip costs
the same as a well designed chip. Once the NRE is
paid for.

Maybe it was a badly designed 1 bit DAC? Bad noise
shaping/filtering?




** Focus on the 60 second "anti shock" feature - that is a non trivial
issue. Either most of the bits are not used or the data is converted to a
form of delta modulation to reduce the storage requirement.

Think of how a digital ( no moving parts) answering machine works.
Assuming no tricks, 16 bits at 44.1KHz x 2 (for stereo)
for 60 seconds would require about 10 megabytes of memory.
That might break the budget for constructing a $30 device,
so you may be right in that they did some sort of
compression to cut storage requirements. Quality
also got cut as well..... That portable was likely
intended for use in noisy environments that would mask
the bad quality.
 
"robert casey" <.
Phil Allison wrote:

** Focus on the 60 second "anti shock" feature - that is a non trivial
issue. Either most of the bits are not used or the data is converted to a
form of delta modulation to reduce the storage requirement.

Think of how a digital ( no moving parts) answering machine works.


Assuming no tricks, 16 bits at 44.1KHz x 2 (for stereo)
for 60 seconds would require about 10 megabytes of memory.
That might break the budget for constructing a $30 device,
so you may be right in that they did some sort of
compression to cut storage requirements. Quality
also got cut as well..... That portable was likely
intended for use in noisy environments that would mask
the bad quality.

** For sure.

The question is what is the actual trick being used .




............... Phil
 
"robert casey" <wa2ise@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4qJBd.11265$qf5.4025@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
got a hydandi for $100.00


Hydandi?

A maker of low quality cars. You paid too much....
They are currently ranked #3 in the world for quality. I believe their
corporate goal is to be #1 by 2010. For all those wondering Toyota is #1.

Regards TT
 
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:14:52 +0800, "TT" <swatter@geo.net.au> wrote:

"robert casey" <wa2ise@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4qJBd.11265$qf5.4025@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

got a hydandi for $100.00


Hydandi?

A maker of low quality cars. You paid too much....

They are currently ranked #3 in the world for quality. I believe their
corporate goal is to be #1 by 2010. For all those wondering Toyota is #1.

Regards TT
Dear God....it's Hyundai!
 

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