OT: UK to move back to imperial units?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 21:42:40 +0200, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

There are some chemistry tricks to deposit metal out of a solution,
usually of some (semi)noble metal salt with a slow-acting reducing
agent. Look up 'electroless plating'.

Once you have a thin conductive layer, it can be built up to the
required thickness by electroplating.

Sputtering is very useful, too. Say if you need to 'electroplate' an ant
- for example - to look at under an electron microscope, there's really
no better method than sputtering.



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[Rick C]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 2:08:25 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 09:24:53 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:9qv3kedjmc0bvn7n51nv8b82u6l3a7eoir@4ax.com:

ENIG is just a thin plating on top of the copper. It won't conduct
electricity or heat much. Nickel doesn't conduct well and the gold
is
only micro-inches.



ENIG is about solderability and being lead free. It was NEVER
about being more conductive or carrying away heat better... or at
all.

Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.

Pure nickel conducts electricity (and heat) about 1/4 as well as pure
copper. I'd expect that plated metals will conduct less than pure
samples, but nickel still loses. The base copper on a PCB isn't plated
to it should be pretty good. The vias, not so good maybe.

Both thermal and electrical conductivity matter on many PCBs, and
giving up 4:1 isn't appealing.

One advantage of nickel is that the surface oxide that forms is conductive. May not matter after the gold plating is applied, but model railroaders prefer it.

I'm thinking I could do this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jt97rrrqj084rj/Dpak_Pour.jpg?raw=1

The idea is to solder paste a big pour so that when it's reflowed, the
solder flows down to fill the vias, but the DPAK doesn't have vias to
annoy production. A very skinny boundary of mask separates the DPAK
part of the pour from the rest.

It would look weird.

Maybe most of the pour could be masked, but not the vias, so they get
solder pasted to fill them up but the whole mess isn't covered with
solder. Yeah, that would look better.

We normally don't solder mask our ENIG vias, but we don't paste them
either.

Yes, I'm sure you care a lot about how it looks. The solder is very heat conductive, so no reason to eliminate it.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[George Herold]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 2:10:57 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 07:29:31 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2019-07-31, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

Isn't the nickle plated over the copper? I assume the copper is still
carrying the current and heat.

Say are ENIG boards magnetic at all?

I expect so, nickel is megnetic.
Electroless nickel is pretty thin, so not very magnetic.

Probably enough to register on a MICR reader etc.

Just tried an ENIG board and a supermagnet, no apparent attraction.

Thanks, I've always just wanted some magnetic material
that's not iron. I was disappointed when I found my old nickles
(a US five cent piece) weren't magnetic.

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 3:04:50 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 2:08:25 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 09:24:53 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:9qv3kedjmc0bvn7n51nv8b82u6l3a7eoir@4ax.com:

ENIG is just a thin plating on top of the copper. It won't conduct
electricity or heat much. Nickel doesn't conduct well and the gold
is
only micro-inches.



ENIG is about solderability and being lead free. It was NEVER
about being more conductive or carrying away heat better... or at
all.

Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.

Pure nickel conducts electricity (and heat) about 1/4 as well as pure
copper. I'd expect that plated metals will conduct less than pure
samples, but nickel still loses. The base copper on a PCB isn't plated
to it should be pretty good. The vias, not so good maybe.

Both thermal and electrical conductivity matter on many PCBs, and
giving up 4:1 isn't appealing.

One advantage of nickel is that the surface oxide that forms is conductive. May not matter after the gold plating is applied, but model railroaders prefer it.

Sorry, what the model railroaders use is nickel silver, not nickel.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thursday, 1 August 2019 10:24:59 UTC+1, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.

When conduction is an issue, ie for high currents, we don't use silver. We use either supplementary flex or metal bar soldered in. Solder coating the track is also used sometimes.


NT

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 9:00:26 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, 1 August 2019 10:24:59 UTC+1, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.

When conduction is an issue, ie for high currents, we don't use silver. We use either supplementary flex or metal bar soldered in. Solder coating the track is also used sometimes.

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few percent better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make enough of a difference that it would justify the cost and the ready oxidation?

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 11:45:13 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

Thanks, I've always just wanted some magnetic material
that's not iron. I was disappointed when I found my old nickles
(a US five cent piece) weren't magnetic.

You want Canadian coinage, then. US 'nickel' is copper-nickel alloy.
A Canadian dime sticks to a magnet (unless they've changed recently).
Manganese bronze is another candidate.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 31/07/2019 22:47, Martin Brown wrote:

On 28/07/2019 11:23, TTman wrote:



They seem really desperate to find ways to distract as larger
part of the public as possible from the ongoing brexit nonsense.
Imperial units, "we are an emprie", LOL. Then these tanker
conflicts etc., it will be interesting to watch if/how they are
going to get it their way. Johnson at no 10 wants to look as
ballsy as he can, too bad he is not as brainy as necessary.... I
expect things in the UK to literally fall apart - to the delight
of the Kremlin.

Dimiter

====================================================== Dimiter
Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/

Boris appears to be a buffon a la Benny Hill but he's actually a
smart thinker. It's his mouth that lets him down.'Engage brain
before opening mouth' springs to mind.

I'd give him at most 6 months in the job he coveted so much at most.
He is probably fairly safe for now whilst parliament is in summer
recess.

First real test is tomorrow's by-election:

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2019/06/25/brecon-by-election-sparked-by-conviction-will-go-ahead-on-august-1/


Previous incumbent (a Tory) convicted of fiddling expenses (usually
Tories are traditionally done for sex scandals) is standing again. It
may be very tight (his constituency forced a by-election by
petition).

It wasn't all that tight. They lost big time to the LibDems (Remain).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

Boris the Animal now goes into the record books as the Prime Minister
with the tightest ever working majority of just 1 vote and has suffered
the quickest by-election defeat of any new PM since WWII.

That "majority" depends on giving another huge bung to the DUP too.

I am heartened to see that the Official Monster Raving Loony Party got
more votes than UKIP (both lost their deposit).

April Fools Day would be more suitable for Brexit than Halloween.

Remainers will now be emboldened to poke Boris with sharp sticks until
his government quite literally falls apart at the seams. Pretty much
like the anti-EU Brexitators have done to every previous Tory leader.

Cameron's unwise gamble in 2016 has destroyed the Tory Party.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 02/08/19 09:04, Martin Brown wrote:

On 31/07/2019 22:47, Martin Brown wrote:
On 28/07/2019 11:23, TTman wrote:



They seem really desperate to find ways to distract as larger
part of the public as possible from the ongoing brexit nonsense.
Imperial units, "we are an emprie", LOL. Then these tanker
conflicts etc., it will be interesting to watch if/how they are
going to get it their way. Johnson at no 10 wants to look as
ballsy as he can, too bad he is not as brainy as necessary.... I
expect things in the UK to literally fall apart - to the delight
of the Kremlin.

Dimiter

====================================================== Dimiter
Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/

Boris appears to be a buffon a la Benny Hill but he's actually a
smart thinker. It's his mouth that lets him down.'Engage brain
before opening mouth' springs to mind.

I'd give him at most 6 months in the job he coveted so much at most.
He is probably fairly safe for now whilst parliament is in summer
recess.

First real test is tomorrow's by-election:

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2019/06/25/brecon-by-election-sparked-by-conviction-will-go-ahead-on-august-1/



Previous incumbent (a Tory) convicted of fiddling expenses (usually Tories are
traditionally done for sex scandals) is standing again. It
 may be very tight (his constituency forced a by-election by
petition).

It wasn't all that tight. They lost big time to the LibDems (Remain).

Yes, but the opposition parties actually got their act
together and didn't oppose each other.

Let's hope that is a sign of things to come.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

Boris the Animal now goes into the record books as the Prime Minister with the
tightest ever working majority of just 1 vote and has suffered the quickest
by-election defeat of any new PM since WWII.

That "majority" depends on giving another huge bung to the DUP too.

I am heartened to see that the Official Monster Raving Loony Party got more
votes than UKIP (both lost their deposit).

Yes, but the Brexit party is the new UKIP party.

April Fools Day would be more suitable for Brexit than Halloween.

Remainers will now be emboldened to poke Boris with sharp sticks until his
government quite literally falls apart at the seams. Pretty much like the
anti-EU Brexitators have done to every previous Tory leader.

Cameron's unwise gamble in 2016 has destroyed the Tory Party.

And the Labour party, with Corbyn's help. Labour was in
4th place (down 12%) behind the Brexit party, and narrowly
avoided losing its deposit.

Brexit/remain cuts across the standard political boundaries.

If the British empire was made on the playing fields of
Rugby, the UK was unmade on the playing fields of Eton.

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 7:16:05 PM UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, 1 August 2019 10:24:59 UTC+1, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few percent better than copper, about 6%.

But, only NEARLY pointless; for metallization on ceramic, it was a winner (in its
relatively small niche). Also for metallization on mica, in capacitors (though
I never understood why aluminum or tin wasn't employed there).

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e3c8d148-912b-4e47-9dcf-13f6f908487b@googlegroups.com:

We normally don't solder mask our ENIG vias, but we don't paste
them either.

Yes, I'm sure you care a lot about how it looks. The solder is
very heat conductive, so no reason to eliminate it.

--

ENIG is easy. One can indeed mask over vias. Done right, the vias
are pretty small to start with. No, a masked via is not going to
leach solder during reflow. This isn't HASL.

You want ideas on PCB design look at the board on hard drives.
Millions are produced and they push power elements so heat gets
generated, but they are very good at managing it well, so one would
think that thos thin PCBs are designed pretty good. Look at their
techniques.

I would trust methods implemented by say Seagate long before any
"I've done it for years" guy that maybe did 50 boards in his life.
Those guys at Seagate have decades of experience through decades of
PCB fab evolution as well. Hell they probably fab their own PCBs in
house.

 

George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in news:0011dd69-7cf0-4de1-
934a-bc797b412485@googlegroups.com:

Thanks, I've always just wanted some magnetic material
that's not iron. I was disappointed when I found my old nickles
(a US five cent piece) weren't magnetic.

George H.

It would be if you alloyed it with Aluminum and Cobalt.

BTW a US nickel is mostly Copper.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-08-01, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 2:10:57 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 07:29:31 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2019-07-31, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

Isn't the nickle plated over the copper? I assume the copper is still
carrying the current and heat.

Say are ENIG boards magnetic at all?

I expect so, nickel is megnetic.
Electroless nickel is pretty thin, so not very magnetic.

Probably enough to register on a MICR reader etc.

Just tried an ENIG board and a supermagnet, no apparent attraction.

Thanks, I've always just wanted some magnetic material
that's not iron. I was disappointed when I found my old nickles
(a US five cent piece) weren't magnetic.

In chemistry class in highschool I was handed a nickel spatula
for use in some experiment (throwing salt crysals into a bunsen
flame perhps) it was stamped with the words "PURE NICKEL" and
was dull grey in colour.

It stuck to the magnet in my pencil case.

There should be nickel foil inside NiMH batteries.

George H.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f43e54fb-ecc0-4a83-80e9-86230393b88f@googlegroups.com:

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few
percent better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make
enough of a difference that it would justify the cost and the
ready oxidation?

Forced surface oxidation. Then, it is a known 'patina' and less
mutable. Less so than Copper is even. RF coils in mil radios get
this treatment

BTW 'pure' Silver oxide can be made even more conductive than the
Silver itself.

Note that those few percent are enough to get the guys making power
feeds to robot wheel motors from Silver cable links, so it must
matter to them thar MIT robot boys.

 

[George Herold]

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 10:07:57 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 11:45:13 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

Thanks, I've always just wanted some magnetic material
that's not iron. I was disappointed when I found my old nickles
(a US five cent piece) weren't magnetic.

You want Canadian coinage, then. US 'nickel' is copper-nickel alloy.
A Canadian dime sticks to a magnet (unless they've changed recently).
Manganese bronze is another candidate.

Hmm nickle plated steel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_(Canadian_coin)
I need one from before 2000....

George H

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:16:01 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few percent
better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make enough of a
difference that it would justify the cost and the ready oxidation?

Nevertheless, silver plating the wire used in the roller coasters and
other inductors of linear amps is a common practice among RF power
amplifier builders.



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This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
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GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 09:40:20 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e3c8d148-912b-4e47-9dcf-13f6f908487b@googlegroups.com:

We normally don't solder mask our ENIG vias, but we don't paste
them either.

Yes, I'm sure you care a lot about how it looks. The solder is
very heat conductive, so no reason to eliminate it.

--

ENIG is easy. One can indeed mask over vias. Done right, the vias
are pretty small to start with. No, a masked via is not going to
leach solder during reflow. This isn't HASL.

We used to solder mask over vias; not masking is fairly new here. The
un-masked vias are easy to probe, or to blue-wire to. They look great
too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uap8do7ssyaicmy/T577_back.JPG?raw=1

We do mask the microvias under a BGA.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f72qdizxti8shvz/P330_BGA_Vias.jpg?raw=1


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Friday, 2 August 2019 18:47:22 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few percent
better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make enough of a
difference that it would justify the cost and the ready oxidation?

Nevertheless, silver plating the wire used in the roller coasters and
other inductors of linear amps is a common practice among RF power
amplifier builders.

However, measurements of attenuation in waveguides have shown that
plain copper is better then silver plated copper. This is thought
to be because the plated finish has more surface roughness. Polishing
doesn't help because the polishing process worsens the conductivity
of the silver despite improving the surface smoothness.

John

 

Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> wrote in
news:qi1sv5$vpo$2@dont-email.me:

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:16:01 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few
percent better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make
enough of a difference that it would justify the cost and the
ready oxidation?

Nevertheless, silver plating the wire used in the roller coasters
and other inductors of linear amps is a common practice among RF
power amplifier builders.

It isn't "nevertheless". It works better, period. Especially at
those frequencies where some signals move around on the skins of the
conduction links.

Bitching about percentage numerics. 6% is 6%. More is more...
less is less. More conductive is better for power.

Likely also less noisey at the very least for RF.

For DC, screw plating, get solid silver strands made into a cable.
That is for high power apps. Or hard forged silver links.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 8/2/19 1:47 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:16:01 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Silver is nearly pointless. The conductivity is only a few percent
better than copper, about 6%. When exactly would 6% make enough of a
difference that it would justify the cost and the ready oxidation?

Nevertheless, silver plating the wire used in the roller coasters and
other inductors of linear amps is a common practice among RF power
amplifier builders.

That's on account of contact resistance. Silver oxide conducts pretty
well; copper oxide doesn't.

There's an electroless silver plating product called Cool-Amp that is
intended for contacts but which I use on the family silver (mostly
platters, which take a lot of wear).

https://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com