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On 30/07/19 19:00, Chris wrote:
On 07/30/19 18:44, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/07/19 18:14, Chris wrote:
On 07/30/19 01:40, Tom Gardner wrote:
The problem arises when he imposes it on the whole country
(which, as a lawmaker, he has done), or makes the UK look
stupid (which he does with his "metric is bad" stuff).
Ok, so give me an example of "imposing it on the whole
country" ?.
His religious opinions about abortion, same sex marriages,
and similar.
So what ?. So he should be banned from public life just
because some disagree with his opinions ?. You don't counter
extremism by banning it, you let them speak and counter
it with a better argument.
It's a d e m o c r a c y, where diverse opinions should be
encouraged, or at worst tolerated and it's not as though
Mogg gets his own way about much without scrutiny by
parliament,the great leveler. He does however have a first
class intellect and an encyclopaedic knowledge of uk law
and parliamentary procedure, so ideal for the role of father
of the house.
You may not like him, but people should be chosen on the
basis of ability, not their opinions, even though we are
on the edge of a thought crime state in many ways...
Your points are strawman arguments, which would be clearly
seen if you hadn't chosen to snip the context.
Unimpressive, but typical of those that use acronyms such
as "msm".
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:41:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:46:35 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much
copper i
nto
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't
penetrat
e,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
Field lines that put copper onto the sidewalls of a hole, are
radial inside the hole. The math of electric fields is my
reasoning, and complaints in the literature about plating inside
holes is supporting data (Printed Circuits Handbook, Clyde
Coombs is where I recall reading about this).
There are lots of PTH section images online, like this one:
http://www.eurocircuits.com/wp-content/uploads/ec2015/ecImage/blog
s/Micro
section/Microsection%204.png
The plating generally looks uniform, a bit thinner than the
surface traces. Phil says that the conductivity of plated copper
is inferior to pure copper.
The e-field must be about zero deep inside the hole.
I could measure electrical resistivity as a proxy for thermal
conductivity. The conversion factor is usually about 150,000 K/W
per ohm.
If plating were e-field and diffusion controlled, why would the
plating be even through the entire via? Don't they coat the
inside of the via with something that conducts for the plating to
stare all through the via from the beginning of the electroplating
bath?
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:46:35 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much copper into
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't penetrate,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
Field lines that put copper onto the sidewalls of a hole, are radial
inside the hole. The math of electric fields is my reasoning, and
complaints in the literature about plating inside holes is supporting
data (Printed Circuits Handbook, Clyde Coombs is where I recall
reading about this).
There are lots of PTH section images online, like this one:
http://www.eurocircuits.com/wp-content/uploads/ec2015/ecImage/blogs/Microsection/Microsection%204.png
The plating generally looks uniform, a bit thinner than the surface
traces. Phil says that the conductivity of plated copper is inferior
to pure copper.
The e-field must be about zero deep inside the hole.
I could measure electrical resistivity as a proxy for thermal
conductivity. The conversion factor is usually about 150,000 K/W per
ohm.
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 1:53:21 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 15:29:10 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Exactly, books kill trees so cause glowballworming, are heavy,
no online updates,
fire hazard, take too much space, no live experiment movies,
sensitive to fungus,
not waterproof, lower data per dollar than google and bing,
usually only a one person POV,
and once you have read one all it is good for is fix a wobbling
table or something.
.... and while you're enjoying some great TV programs, why not
tuck into something equally delightful to eat?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/49127499
You'll be saving the planet, too!
According to this web page eating insects is more popular than
Trump. 52% would try them while Trump's approval rating is only
43%
On 31/07/2019 02:46, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I too came to Phil's calculation that a dense smattering of small vias
laid down the most copper, but got John's lament from assembly houses
that the vias gobble the solder paste. "Don't do that," they said.
Maybe a sensible tack would be using small vias to maximize copper,
then estimating the aggregate void, and then estimating the paste...
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much copper into
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't penetrate,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
My intuition agrees with him that the smaller the hole the more it will
be diffusion limited as well. A few strategically places ones might be
better. When they fill with solder paste that has to help.
Only way to be sure is do the experiment and measure the results.
Jan Panteltje Wog Nut Case wrote:
That's why it's important we ban books -- they've got no commercials,
plant no tracking cookies, and take too much time away from television..
Exactly, books kill trees so cause glowballworming,
** What have glowworms got to do with anything ?
Trees harvested for paper are replaced in cultivated forests.
are heavy, no online updates, fire hazard, take too much space,
** One huge advantage is their contents do not suddenly change or disappear at the whim of anyone.
no live experiment
movies, sensitive to fungus, not waterproof, lower data per dollar than
google and bing, usually only a one person POV, and once you have read
one all it is good for is fix a wobbling table or something.
** Absurdly negative view from someone with a very defective brain.
The internet turns such people from harmless weirdos into dangerous misinformers of the young and naĂŻve.
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:8a4b18f3-33e1-436b-b010-cf8a5f3f8861@googlegroups.com:
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:41:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:46:35 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much
copper i
nto
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't
penetrat
e,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
Field lines that put copper onto the sidewalls of a hole, are
radial inside the hole. The math of electric fields is my
reasoning, and complaints in the literature about plating inside
holes is supporting data (Printed Circuits Handbook, Clyde
Coombs is where I recall reading about this).
There are lots of PTH section images online, like this one:
http://www.eurocircuits.com/wp-content/uploads/ec2015/ecImage/blog
s/Micro
section/Microsection%204.png
The plating generally looks uniform, a bit thinner than the
surface traces. Phil says that the conductivity of plated copper
is inferior to pure copper.
The e-field must be about zero deep inside the hole.
I could measure electrical resistivity as a proxy for thermal
conductivity. The conversion factor is usually about 150,000 K/W
per ohm.
If plating were e-field and diffusion controlled, why would the
plating be even through the entire via? Don't they coat the
inside of the via with something that conducts for the plating to
stare all through the via from the beginning of the electroplating
bath?
The energized bath is a field and all that is in it as a negative (or
positive) node will get plated during bath energization. Circulation
of the electrolyte is all that is needed to keep 'full strength'
media in proximity with the surfaces its molecules are separating
from to add to the plating. So the only 'danger' to plate lacking
would be if the fluid lost molecules in plating and none were left in
that direct, proximal zone to a surface. A boundary layer kind of
thing. Keep the fluid moving and fresh atoms are closer to the
srfaces they are being added to. No movement would allow a "depleted
layer" of fluid to be the proximal agent to a surface and it could be
argued that the surface would receive less plating.
If it is pure field though as the mechanism (pretty sure it is), it
will happen regardless of 'proximal' solution strength.
Unlike say copper PCB etching with acid. The acid strength
determins the etch 'speed' and trace edge quality.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 2:24:21 PM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
You seem to misunderstand my question. It is about how the plating
starts in the via. If there is no metal there to start with, how
does plating begin all through the whole in the beginning?
George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in
news:67aac44b-0ce5-4d25-b6b6-71a61412fe56@googlegroups.com:
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:41:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:46:35 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much
copper into small vias, both because the E-field at the
throat doesn't penetrate, and because the circumference is
less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
Field lines that put copper onto the sidewalls of a hole, are
radial inside the hole. The math of electric fields is my
reasoning, and complaints in the literature about plating inside
holes is supporting data (Printed Circuits Handbook, Clyde
Coombs is where I recall reading about this).
There are lots of PTH section images online, like this one:
http://www.eurocircuits.com/wp-content/uploads/ec2015/ecImage/blog
s/Microsection/Microsection%204.png
The plating generally looks uniform, a bit thinner than the
surface
Nice pic. Typically aren't the inner layers 1/2 oz... It looks
like the hole has about the same thickness as the inner layers..
maybe a bit more.
If you get 2 oz copper on the outer layers, do they do that by
plating up from 1/2 oz? That would make the copper on the PTH's
thicker too.
https://www.epectec.com/articles/pcb-surface-finish-advantages-and-
disadvantages.html
Fuck Copper. Use ENIG.
They seem really desperate to find ways to distract as larger part
of the public as possible from the ongoing brexit nonsense. Imperial
units, "we are an emprie", LOL. Then these tanker conflicts etc.,
it will be interesting to watch if/how they are going to get it
their way. Johnson at no 10 wants to look as ballsy as he can, too
bad he is not as brainy as necessary.... I expect things in the UK to
literally fall apart - to the delight of the Kremlin.
Dimiter
======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Boris appears to be a buffon a la Benny Hill but he's actually a smart
thinker. It's his mouth that lets him down.'Engage brain before opening
mouth' springs to mind.
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 30 Jul 2019 07:56:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote in
723c5c5e-3d84-4ea1-acba-2e2b57011ab0@googlegroups.com>:
I can't say. I never watch television.
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
That's why it's important we ban books -- they've got no commercials,
plant no tracking cookies, and take too much time away from television.
Exactly, books kill trees so cause glowballworming, are heavy, no online updates,
fire hazard, take too much space, no live experiment movies, sensitive to fungus,
not waterproof, lower data per dollar than google and bing, usually only a one person POV,
and once you have read one all it is good for is fix a wobbling table or something.
I bought an ebook reader some time ago, it has an e-ink display.
is water proof, has WiFi and a bad browser, has some books on it
started reading those ..yuck, no, interfaced it to my navigation system
was all about that display, that is OK:
http://panteltje.com/pub/xgpspc_to_aqua2_IXIMG_0105.JPG
slow refresh... Very good readable in intense sunlight,
you could probably put the work of the great writers here on it,
and save trees.
No color.
I does not do teefee, way to slow.
Solution?
I think not.
Back to the laptop or pad.
I have a Sony e-book reader. E-ink is slick. But as beautiful as
it is, books are better. Much. (The Sony gets next to zero use.)
Isn't the nickle plated over the copper? I assume the copper is still
carrying the current and heat.
Say are ENIG boards magnetic at all?
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 7:57:54 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 31/07/2019 02:46, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I too came to Phil's calculation that a dense smattering of small vias
laid down the most copper, but got John's lament from assembly houses
that the vias gobble the solder paste. "Don't do that," they said.
Maybe a sensible tack would be using small vias to maximize copper,
then estimating the aggregate void, and then estimating the paste...
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much copper into
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't penetrate,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
My intuition agrees with him that the smaller the hole the more it will
be diffusion limited as well. A few strategically places ones might be
better. When they fill with solder paste that has to help.
Only way to be sure is do the experiment and measure the results.
The diffusion problem is why they agitate the boards during plating. So it's not really diffusion.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 2:24:21 PM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:8a4b18f3-33e1-436b-b010-cf8a5f3f8861@googlegroups.com:
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:41:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:46:35 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs
wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as
much copper i
nto
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat
doesn't penetrat
e,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
Field lines that put copper onto the sidewalls of a hole,
are radial inside the hole. The math of electric fields is
my reasoning, and complaints in the literature about plating
inside holes is supporting data (Printed Circuits Handbook,
Clyde Coombs is where I recall reading about this).
There are lots of PTH section images online, like this one:
http://www.eurocircuits.com/wp-content/uploads/ec2015/ecImage/b
log s/Micro
section/Microsection%204.png
The plating generally looks uniform, a bit thinner than the
surface traces. Phil says that the conductivity of plated
copper is inferior to pure copper.
The e-field must be about zero deep inside the hole.
I could measure electrical resistivity as a proxy for thermal
conductivity. The conversion factor is usually about 150,000
K/W per ohm.
If plating were e-field and diffusion controlled, why would the
plating be even through the entire via? Don't they coat the
inside of the via with something that conducts for the plating
to stare all through the via from the beginning of the
electroplating bath?
The energized bath is a field and all that is in it as a negative
(or positive) node will get plated during bath energization.
Circulation of the electrolyte is all that is needed to keep
'full strength' media in proximity with the surfaces its
molecules are separating from to add to the plating. So the only
'danger' to plate lacking would be if the fluid lost molecules in
plating and none were left in that direct, proximal zone to a
surface. A boundary layer kind of thing. Keep the fluid moving
and fresh atoms are closer to the srfaces they are being added
to. No movement would allow a "depleted layer" of fluid to be
the proximal agent to a surface and it could be argued that the
surface would receive less plating.
If it is pure field though as the mechanism (pretty sure it
is), it
will happen regardless of 'proximal' solution strength.
Unlike say copper PCB etching with acid. The acid strength
determins the etch 'speed' and trace edge quality.
You seem to misunderstand my question. It is about how the
plating starts in the via. If there is no metal there to start
with, how does plating begin all through the whole in the
beginning?
ENIG is just a thin plating on top of the copper. It won't conduct
electricity or heat much. Nickel doesn't conduct well and the gold
is
only micro-inches.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 02:24:07 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:
These days with internet and google you can broaden your view both in
electronics and other sciences without paging through hundreds of books
in libraries.
All in minutes, no need to go anywhere and as much in depth as you want.
So convenient. What could possibly go wrong?
The fact that we are moving to a situation where all knowledge is being
made available freely online is leading more and more people to junk
their physical books for the convenience offered by online sources.
People are dumping their old reference books, sets of encyclopedias and
whatnot in landfill. And that's where you'll find me: up to my arse in
those landfill sites rescuing all those old books in preparation for the
day when online historical sources are re-written to suit the liars who
would enslave the human race. Here's a not so secret secret: they've
*already* been doing this for years.
On 31/07/2019 18:59, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 7:57:54 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 31/07/2019 02:46, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/30/19 7:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:03:20 AM UTC-7, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I too came to Phil's calculation that a dense smattering of small vias
laid down the most copper, but got John's lament from assembly houses
that the vias gobble the solder paste. "Don't do that," they said.
Maybe a sensible tack would be using small vias to maximize copper,
then estimating the aggregate void, and then estimating the paste....
The flaw there, is that the plating doesn't 'throw' as much copper into
small vias, both because the E-field at the throat doesn't penetrate,
and because the circumference is less.
Got any actual data about that, or are you just guessing?
My intuition agrees with him that the smaller the hole the more it will
be diffusion limited as well. A few strategically places ones might be
better. When they fill with solder paste that has to help.
Only way to be sure is do the experiment and measure the results.
The diffusion problem is why they agitate the boards during plating. So it's not really diffusion.
Even so boundary layer friction effects will dominate in smaller holes.
They won't get their fair share of the action.
On 2019-07-31, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
Isn't the nickle plated over the copper? I assume the copper is still
carrying the current and heat.
Say are ENIG boards magnetic at all?
I expect so, nickel is megnetic.
Electroless nickel is pretty thin, so not very magnetic.
Probably enough to register on a MICR reader etc.
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:9qv3kedjmc0bvn7n51nv8b82u6l3a7eoir@4ax.com:
ENIG is just a thin plating on top of the copper. It won't conduct
electricity or heat much. Nickel doesn't conduct well and the gold
is
only micro-inches.
ENIG is about solderability and being lead free. It was NEVER
about being more conductive or carrying away heat better... or at
all.
Nickel conducts fine for circuit traces. If conduction were any
kind of issue, we would have perfected a way to use Silver decades
ago.