OT:Prevent Airline Hijacking

[Jim Yanik]

"Roger Johansson" <no-email@no.invalid> wrote in
news:xn0e29ua3cr0y0p000@news.sunsite.dk:

Pooh Bear wrote:

b) All such gases affect ppl in different doses so you 'll end up
with so many dead pax if you want to be sure of putting everyone out.

It would be a lot easier to control dosage and ventilation systems
aboard an aeroplane than it was in a Moscow Theatre.

How do you control dosage for so many different passengers,some
children,the elderly,maybe some ill?
You can't.People breathe at different rates and volumes.People absorb and
react differently to equal dosages of drugs or gasses.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On 15 May 2005 16:21:48 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
<jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

You have such a low opinion of people.

No, I was just thinking of Quentin Tarantino's _Reservoir Dogs_. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Luhan Monat]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 15 May 2005 16:21:48 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:


You have such a low opinion of people.


No, I was just thinking of Quentin Tarantino's _Reservoir Dogs_. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Hey, how about switchblades? Spring-loaded button-activated devices
fashionably decorated in red, white, and blue. An item you can be proud
to place next to your car keys and loose change in the plastic dog food
dish at the airport metal detector.

Let's quit taking nail clippers away from 80 year old ladies, and give
them each one of these 'freedom knives'. Any terrorist will be taken
completely off guard by such a person - not having seen any of them
really pissed-off in a Wal Mart store!

--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"Any sufficiently advanced magick is
indistinguishable from technology."

 

[Roger Johansson]

Ken Taylor wrote:

It would be a lot easier to control dosage and ventilation systems
aboard an aeroplane than it was in a Moscow Theatre.

Particularly if you tell your medics what they'll be treating.

And apply antidotes and oxygen a lot faster than in Moscow.

In an aeroplane there could be an antidote gas system too.

When there is problems in a sector the security guy puts everybody to
sleep there, opens a door to another section so the crew there can use
gas masks, to go into the first section, disarm the terrorists, tie them
up. The security guy administers the antidote gas.
The whole operation is over after 5 minutes.


--
Roger J.

 

[Roger Johansson]

Jim Yanik wrote:

And any drug or gas affects different people differently,at
different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill people are
affected first.Many passengers would die.

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should be
easy to detect in real time.

We can give extra oxygen or even antidote individually to any passenger
who is sitting in his seat.

I am sure that the safety level which can be achieved is good enough.
With this close control of all important factors and very short sleep
periods less than one in a million will die from this treatment.

And that person would probably have died within a few hours anyway.



--
Roger J.

 

[Iwo Mergler]

Don Klipstein wrote:

In art. <gh5g81t58srtdts6o6jf6hieqodo785o74@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany said:

Or, say, ceramic knives concealed and retained under folds of fat.

Ceramic knives are brittle.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

You'd be surprised. Current high-tech ceramics
easily surpass steel in elasticity, hardness, etc.

For instance:

http://www.dynacer.com/zirconia.htm

Regards,

Iwo

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:15:23 +0100, the renowned Iwo Mergler
<Iwo.Mergler@soton.sc.philips.com> wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:

In art. <gh5g81t58srtdts6o6jf6hieqodo785o74@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany said:

Or, say, ceramic knives concealed and retained under folds of fat.

Ceramic knives are brittle.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

You'd be surprised. Current high-tech ceramics
easily surpass steel in elasticity, hardness, etc.

For instance:

http://www.dynacer.com/zirconia.htm

Regards,

Iwo

We have a Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics) ceramic-bladed vegetable slicer
(zirconia). The blade is very impressive. They make internal
combustion engines from ceramics too. I agree, don't underestimate
that class of material.

http://www.kyocera.de/kyocera_n/english/kitchengoods/produkte/keramikmesser/funktional/functionalknife.html


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <xn0e2b80le5en1n003@news.sunsite.dk>,
Roger Johansson <no-email@no.invalid> wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:

And any drug or gas affects different people differently,at
different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill people are
affected first.Many passengers would die.

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should be
easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs wouldn't it
be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat belts so that
no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

We can give extra oxygen or even antidote individually to any passenger
who is sitting in his seat.

I am sure that the safety level which can be achieved is good enough.
With this close control of all important factors and very short sleep
periods less than one in a million will die from this treatment.

And that person would probably have died within a few hours anyway.



--
Roger J.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <gh5g81t58srtdts6o6jf6hieqodo785o74@4ax.com>,
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
[...]

Or, say, ceramic knives concealed and retained under folds of fat.

You can make a very dangerous weapon out of a sheet of FR4. There would
be less risk of breakage to the carrier.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 13:09:43 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 15 May 2005 16:21:48 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:


You have such a low opinion of people.

No, I was just thinking of Quentin Tarantino's _Reservoir Dogs_. ;-)

Or the Southern California freeways. It seems like there's a couple of

freeway shootings a week lately.

One kind of interesting one was where the "victim" survived. They let
slip that he had cut across three lanes of traffic just before the
shooter shot one of his tires. They interviewed the kid. His name
was "Kyle", and he had a shaved head. And apparently didn't see
anything wrong with cutting across three lanes of freeway traffic
because you've forgotten that your exit is near.

Those are the kind that _need_ shooting, AFAIC.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:30:07 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 14 May 2005 23:37:13 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

It would be nice if citizens -could- take a course to learn how to defend
in aircraft cabins,what NOT to do,etc.

You'd save a LOT more lives by getting people to take courses to get
off their fat asses to avoid getting DVT during their flight.

But then the airlines would have to accept it's a problem which they're
reluctant to do especially since seat pitch is a related issue.

Take an aspirin before flight.

I always used to take a stroll over few hours or so on long haul. I've vaguely
wondered if that would attract the wrong kind of attention on a US carrier.

Nah - just go to the head.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 16:20:48 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:

In article <xn0e29km3cdwdv200i@news.sunsite.dk>,
Roger Johansson <no-email@no.invalid> wrote:
....
If one section is threatened by terrorists he can release safe but
immediately working sleep gas in that section.

No such thing. And any drug or gas affects different people differently,at
different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill people are affected
first.Many passengers would die.

Heck, they've been using Anesthezine on the Enterprise for years! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Roger Johansson]

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

If you push the green button you get up out of the chair without a
parachute. If you push the red button the parachute comes along when
you rise up, and you are ready to run out through the door or any
opening.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.


--
Roger J.

 

[Jim Yanik]

"Roger Johansson" <no-email@no.invalid> wrote in
news:xn0e2b80le5en1n003@news.sunsite.dk:

Jim Yanik wrote:

And any drug or gas affects different people differently,at
different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill people are
affected first.Many passengers would die.

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should be
easy to detect in real time.

Now you're in fantasy land.
There are no sensors in everyone's chair.
No one is going to go to the trouble and expense of installing them,either.
No airline would want the extra weight and complexity.
Just think of the liability if some sensors were inaccurate or failed.
The same goes for your fantasy "antidote delivery system".

Even in hospitals with experienced physicians administering drugs or gasses
to single patients,they have problems with some of them.Some never wake up
just from the anasthesia,not any other cause.
Yet you think that an entire planeload of people could survive your scheme.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Jim Yanik]

"Roger Johansson" <no-email@no.invalid> wrote in
news:xn0e2ccckf6w91a006@news.sunsite.dk:

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

Dumb idea,just from the liability standpoint,it would never be accepted.
Several other reasons,too.

wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

Recall the seat-belt interlocks from the mid-70s? How many people could not
get their car to start,or had it stop working and strand them?
Enough that that idea died a fast death.As these "ideas" should.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

If you push the green button you get up out of the chair without a
parachute. If you push the red button the parachute comes along when
you rise up, and you are ready to run out through the door or any
opening.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.

This just gets dumber and dumber.I suspect you have never jumped out of any
plane.(I haven't,but I know a tiny little bit about it)

Just think about jumping out of a jet flying at 150-200 MPH.Then think
about fighter jet ejection seats and what those pilots go through in
leaving their plane.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Jim Yanik]

Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote in
newsan.2005.05.16.16.39.40.560621@example.net:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:30:07 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:


Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 14 May 2005 23:37:13 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

It would be nice if citizens -could- take a course to learn how to
defend in aircraft cabins,what NOT to do,etc.

You'd save a LOT more lives by getting people to take courses to get
off their fat asses to avoid getting DVT during their flight.

But then the airlines would have to accept it's a problem which
they're reluctant to do especially since seat pitch is a related
issue.

Take an aspirin before flight.

I always used to take a stroll over few hours or so on long haul.
I've vaguely wondered if that would attract the wrong kind of
attention on a US carrier.


Nah - just go to the head.

Cheers!
Rich

But not close to landing time,or to use the front bathrooms.
Its not allowed.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Jim Yanik]

Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote in
newsan.2005.05.16.16.43.21.155208@example.net:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 16:20:48 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:
In article <xn0e29km3cdwdv200i@news.sunsite.dk>,
Roger Johansson <no-email@no.invalid> wrote:
...
If one section is threatened by terrorists he can release safe but
immediately working sleep gas in that section.

No such thing. And any drug or gas affects different people
differently,at different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill
people are affected first.Many passengers would die.


Heck, they've been using Anesthezine on the Enterprise for years! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

I think that's where some of these people get their ideas.Movies and
TV,maybe sci-fi books,too.That's why I stick to the hard science sci-fi.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[keith]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 16:35:53 +0000, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 13:09:43 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 15 May 2005 16:21:48 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik
jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:


You have such a low opinion of people.

No, I was just thinking of Quentin Tarantino's _Reservoir Dogs_. ;-)

Or the Southern California freeways. It seems like there's a couple of
freeway shootings a week lately.

Last year it was a nut in Columbus. The year before it DC. <yawn> The
nut will not long be loose.

One kind of interesting one was where the "victim" survived. They let
slip that he had cut across three lanes of traffic just before the
shooter shot one of his tires. They interviewed the kid. His name
was "Kyle", and he had a shaved head. And apparently didn't see
anything wrong with cutting across three lanes of freeway traffic
because you've forgotten that your exit is near.

Ah, justifiable homicide; driving under the influence of stupid.

Those are the kind that _need_ shooting, AFAIC.

It just shows you how wrong one can be... I thought you were
simply a loser pacifist, rather than a loser hypocrite.

--
Keith

 

[Pooh Bear]

keith wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:26:30 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:


Jim Yanik wrote:

Oh,I agree that pilots should be armed first.It's the most practical and
MOST likely to happen,if TSA would get their heads out of their rectums.

Actually it's pretty impractical. If you're flying an aircraft and someone
busts in through the door how long is going to take you ( the pilot ) to find
your weapon - take if off safety and do anything with it ?

Too long to be of any value.

Nonsense. Breaking into the cockpit isn't instantaneous.

Says who ? You want to try a 300lb guy against a flimsy airplane door ?

You lost the 'argument'. Firearms are no answer.

Anyway - I don't expect any such hijacks of that sort to ever occur again. Waste of
time pursuing old ghosts.

Graham

 

[Mark Fergerson]

Jim Yanik wrote:

Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in
news:mRche.32298$fI.3890@fed1read05:

Jim Yanik wrote:

Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in
news:cx2he.31584$fI.29862@fed1read05:

This is just silly. I prefer the "make everybody fly butt-naked"
solution.

Yeah,I hope you get seated next to the obese sweaty person whose body
bulges over/around the armrest.

Usually happens anyway. Sigh.

At least they are not "butt-naked" currently.

So? I'm so damn nearsighted I'd just take off my glasses
(assuming I was allowed to wear them in the first place).

Actually, I was waiting for somebody to mention the possibility
of hiding weapons in various body cavities...

Mark L. Fergerson