OT:Prevent Airline Hijacking

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 20:32:46 -0700, the renowned Mark Fergerson
<nunya@biz.ness> wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in
news:mRche.32298$fI.3890@fed1read05:

Jim Yanik wrote:

Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in
news:cx2he.31584$fI.29862@fed1read05:

This is just silly. I prefer the "make everybody fly butt-naked"
solution.

Yeah,I hope you get seated next to the obese sweaty person whose body
bulges over/around the armrest.

Usually happens anyway. Sigh.

At least they are not "butt-naked" currently.

So? I'm so damn nearsighted I'd just take off my glasses
(assuming I was allowed to wear them in the first place).

Actually, I was waiting for somebody to mention the possibility
of hiding weapons in various body cavities...

Mark L. Fergerson

Or, say, ceramic knives concealed and retained under folds of fat.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <xn0e2ccckf6w91a006@news.sunsite.dk>,
Roger Johansson <no-email@no.invalid> wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

This would have to be an FAA approved fire proof microphone in each seat
and an FAA and FDA approved program running in an FAA approved computer.
I estimate a total cost to the airlines of about a zillion dollars.

wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

Don't you just hate it when you suggest a silly idea as a joke and someone
thinks (a) yo are serious and (b) it is a good idea?

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

At the speed modern aircraft fly, a simple parachute is near useless.
Jumping out the door will be like jumping into fast running water (have
you ever tried that). The sudden change in direction and position screws
up your sense of which way is up and you end up with your arms and legs
wrenched around at random. It is not a good thing to do.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.

This is simply not true. When the trouble is big and sudden, you are not
going to get up and calmly walk to the door. If you are not strapped in,
you will rattle around the inside of the cabin like a pea in a coffee can.

The only case I can think of where passengers could have been saved that
way is the JAL 747 that blew out the back pressure bulkhead. The pilot
did get straight and level flight for a while. A few could have been
saved.


--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 17 May 2005 02:02:52 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:

Just think about jumping out of a jet flying at 150-200 MPH.Then think
about fighter jet ejection seats and what those pilots go through in
leaving their plane.

It's nowhere near as traumatic as punching out inside the hangar. With
the Martin-Baker Zero-Zero seat, you can be at zero altitude and zero
airspeed and it blows you high enough to open your 'chute and land you
safely. Unless, of course, you happen to be the maintenance man who
sets off the catapult and you go _through_ the plexiglass canopy and
through the hangar roof.

The safety officer came around a couple of months later and said, "It's
no fun having to tell a young wife that her husband just killed himself
by his own stupidity."

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Roger Johansson]

Ken Smith wrote:

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute.
When you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

At the speed modern aircraft fly, a simple parachute is near useless.
Jumping out the door will be like jumping into fast running water
(have you ever tried that). The sudden change in direction and
position screws up your sense of which way is up and you end up with
your arms and legs wrenched around at random. It is not a good thing
to do.

I'd rather take my chances with a parachute in free air than staying in
a plane that is falling towards the ground.

I wouldn't like being on a ship without enough life jackets for all
passengers, so why shouldn't we have parachutes when we travel in
aeroplanes? It could come in handy in a very serious situation, that is
reason enough to have it as standard in all seats in all aeroplanes.


--
Roger J.

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 17 May 2005 02:05:35 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:

Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote in
On Sun, 15 May 2005 16:20:48 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:
In article <xn0e29km3cdwdv200i@news.sunsite.dk>, Roger Johansson
no-email@no.invalid> wrote:
...
If one section is threatened by terrorists he can release safe but
immediately working sleep gas in that section.

No such thing. And any drug or gas affects different people
differently,at different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill
people are affected first.Many passengers would die.


Heck, they've been using Anesthezine on the Enterprise for years! ;-)

I think that's where some of these people get their ideas.Movies and
TV,maybe sci-fi books,too.That's why I stick to the hard science sci-fi.

And be sure to use your energy dampeners. Can't have that energy
drying out! ;-P

Saw the Jar-Jar Binks show Sunday, and BOY, did it suck! Those Jedi must
be superhumanly patient - I wanted to choke him within about 30 seconds.
But I did find out where the line, "Do some pee-po gonna die?" in SP:BL&U
came from. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Michael]

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute.
When you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

At the speed modern aircraft fly, a simple parachute is near useless.
Jumping out the door will be like jumping into fast running water
(have you ever tried that). The sudden change in direction and
position screws up your sense of which way is up and you end up with
your arms and legs wrenched around at random. It is not a good thing
to do.

I'd rather take my chances with a parachute in free air than staying in
a plane that is falling towards the ground.

I wouldn't like being on a ship without enough life jackets for all
passengers, so why shouldn't we have parachutes when we travel in
aeroplanes? It could come in handy in a very serious situation, that is
reason enough to have it as standard in all seats in all aeroplanes.

--
Roger J.

Return on investment would be vanishingly small. You wouldn't "take your
chances", chance would take you. Even strong persons trained in egress
occasionally die. Why do you seem to believe that Joe Business-Suit would reach
terra firma alive (even if he could survive explosive decompression, lack of
oxygen, and below-freezing temperature)?

 

[Roger Johansson]

Michael wrote:

I wouldn't like being on a ship without enough life jackets for all
passengers, so why shouldn't we have parachutes when we travel in
aeroplanes? It could come in handy in a very serious situation,
that is reason enough to have it as standard in all seats in all
aeroplanes.

Return on investment would be vanishingly small.

Return on investment is vanishingly small on lifejackets and lifeboats
for ships, but that is not a good reason to remove such safety
equipment.

It is the right of a passenger to get the chances which are possible.
A parachute is a possibility which can become highly valued in a
special situation.

To find then, that the airline company has saved a few dollars on
parachutes, is tough towards the passengers in a situation where
parachutes would be a good chance to survive.


--
Roger J.

 

[Jim Yanik]

Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote in
newsan.2005.05.17.16.16.55.503480@example.net:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 02:02:52 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:

Just think about jumping out of a jet flying at 150-200 MPH.Then think
about fighter jet ejection seats and what those pilots go through in
leaving their plane.

It's nowhere near as traumatic as punching out inside the hangar. With
the Martin-Baker Zero-Zero seat, you can be at zero altitude and zero
airspeed and it blows you high enough to open your 'chute and land you
safely. Unless, of course, you happen to be the maintenance man who
sets off the catapult and you go _through_ the plexiglass canopy and
through the hangar roof.

The safety officer came around a couple of months later and said, "It's
no fun having to tell a young wife that her husband just killed himself
by his own stupidity."

Thanks,
Rich

Yes,fighter jets have ejection seats *in order to protect the pilot from
ejecting at high speeds*.

Passenger jets are not going to have them.
Planes that people DO parachute from are designed to allow it without them
striking wings or control surfaces,not get sucked into an intake,and have
much lower stall speeds.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

Roger Johansson wrote:

Michael wrote:


I wouldn't like being on a ship without enough life jackets for all
passengers, so why shouldn't we have parachutes when we travel in
aeroplanes? It could come in handy in a very serious situation,
that is reason enough to have it as standard in all seats in all
aeroplanes.


Return on investment would be vanishingly small.


Return on investment is vanishingly small on lifejackets and lifeboats
for ships, but that is not a good reason to remove such safety
equipment.

It is the right of a passenger to get the chances which are possible.
A parachute is a possibility which can become highly valued in a
special situation.

To find then, that the airline company has saved a few dollars on
parachutes, is tough towards the passengers in a situation where
parachutes would be a good chance to survive.


Hi Roger,

I take it you have decided to be the village idiot on this newsgroup?
Are you in management, by chance, since it is unlikely an real engineer
would post such bull-pucky!

I say this, because you have obviously never sky dived, or even
seriously CONSIDERED what is necessary to parachute. It is not a
trivial process by any means. If you had the ghost of a clue, you would
not even begin to propose such idiocy.

First off, a parachute is not a small device. In order to have enough
for every passenger, you would have reduced your payload probably on the
order of 15-20%. They are large, heavy, and difficult to handle.
Imagining the mass panic of a crowded jet trying to don parachutes in
the confined cabin is so terrible it is almost funny!

Second, they are not pack once, use two years later, type of devices.
They have a bad habit of not storing for long periods nicely. Materials
deteriorate, stick, might not have been packed correctly in the first
place, etc. I wouldn't want to try and use one in that condition, if I
had any choice whatsoever.

Finally, the liabilities involved in including the parachutes to the
airlines, the maintanance of them, testing of them, etc. would far
outweigh the one-time-in-a-million when there would be an accident or
incident when the passengers could even begin to consider using them.

Let us know when you return to our universe, and please let us know what
color the sky was in yours...

Charlie

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <xn0e2d3yyg8fhjk00d@news.sunsite.dk>,
Roger Johansson <no-email@no.invalid> wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute.
When you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

At the speed modern aircraft fly, a simple parachute is near useless.
Jumping out the door will be like jumping into fast running water
(have you ever tried that). The sudden change in direction and
position screws up your sense of which way is up and you end up with
your arms and legs wrenched around at random. It is not a good thing
to do.

I'd rather take my chances with a parachute in free air than staying in
a plane that is falling towards the ground.

You can bring a parachute as your carry on. When the crew stops laughing,
they will let you bring it on.

If you are on a plane that is falling towards the ground, the chances are
about <floating point underflow> that you will be able to get it on and
move towards the door.

When you arrive at the door, you will then have to open it. Good luck on
that if the plane is falling and tumbling.

Assuming you do get out the door, you have to magically avoid being killed
by hitting parts of the plane.

The parachute will most likely open if it is correctly packed. If by some
extreme form of luck you managed to strap it on correctly in all the
confusion, it will slow your rate of fall.

You will land on whatever happens to be below you at the time. Since
2/3rds of the world is covered in water, you stand fairly good odds of
landing in some nice soft water and then drowning. If you miss the water,
you may land on a tree and be impaled or a mountain top and freeze to
death. Or you could land badly in a nice open a field and die from your
injuries.

If you make it through all those odds and live, it seems almost certain
that you will then be stung to death by killer bees while being struck by
lightening and winning the lottery.



--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Don Klipstein]

In art. <gh5g81t58srtdts6o6jf6hieqodo785o74@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany said:

Or, say, ceramic knives concealed and retained under folds of fat.

Ceramic knives are brittle. I would take my chances combatting a
villain with a ceramic knife if I had no knife or arms at all.
Methodology: Break the ceramic knife, and now the villain is unarmed.
I have no problem getting some cuts and bruises if that's all I have to
endure to disarm a flight hijacker!
Also, I suspect that if I break the only weapon of a flight hijacker, I
do not expect to repeat myself too much when I say "Lets Roll" and then
plenty of other people on the plane tackle the guy whose ceramic knife
just got broken.

After the loser of the ceramic knife gets tackled, I propose a sentence
of life in prison, with lunch and dinner being spaghetti with sauce by
Dave's Gourmet - as in "Insanity" hot sauce, something like 100 times as
hot as tabasco sauce!

Now that flight passengers know that hijackings can have fatal intent,
passengers are more willing to combat hijackers than they were before
9/11!
Now more bad news for foreign hijackers: Hijack a plane with American
passengers, and some good chance at least one passenger is a gay man who
has a boyfriend that at least sometimes plays rough in the bedroom -
giving major practice for wrestling techniques! Count me in for this
category - I have a day job visibly apparantly carrying cash (delivering
sandwiches by bicycle) in West Philadelphia, and in my most recent
encounter with a mugger I successfully jumped a mugger that was trying to
rob someone other than me, despite the mugger outweighing me by 40-50
pounds!
Surely a planeload of passengers also has at leat one or two straight
men whose wives or girlfriends play rough in the bedroom, as well as
probably at leat one of such women who got bedroom practice tackling men,
and possibly to maybe probably at least one lesbian that knows how to play
rough!

And in the unlikely event should a planeload of American passengers
completely lack people who practiced wrestling and restraining someone in
the bedroom, there is still a fair chance the plane has at least one
person who has wrestled or played tackle "American football" on a level of
highschool, college varsity or junior varsity or (less likely but worse)
professionally or at Olympic level. Tackled villains become targets for
fellow passengers of lower tackling ability to get in all too many punches
and kicks!

Now that we are in the era of "tackle the hijackers or die", hijackers
beware! Not only I wrestle a man in the bedroom, I also don't mind biting
like a mad dog or a wolf to disable (or kill) a hijacker!
I also had some karate training! Hijackers better abort their plans on
any flight where I am a passenger, as well as on any flights with fellow
Americans that know that from 9/11 on it is necessary to combat the
hijackers! Worst case - last hijacked flight of 9/11 failed to improve
survival rate of plane passengers but otherwise foiled the mission of the
hijackers (probaly crashing the White House), but knowing that nowadays
hijackers can be on "suicide bomber" missions the plane passengers are
more willing than even on the 4th hijacked flight of 9/11 will combat the
hijackers!

Any plane passengers who know any sexy restraining techniques, you are
part of USA's "Militia" that keeps and bears arms that not even an
unconstitutional law can infringe!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

 

[Pooh Bear]

Roger Johansson wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:

And any drug or gas affects different people differently,at
different rates.Small people,children,elderly,and ill people are
affected first.Many passengers would die.

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should be
easy to detect in real time.

We can give extra oxygen or even antidote individually to any passenger
who is sitting in his seat.

In your dreams.

This *has* to be a troll !

I am sure that the safety level which can be achieved is good enough.
With this close control of all important factors and very short sleep
periods less than one in a million will die from this treatment.

And that person would probably have died within a few hours anyway.

Says Dr Johansson ! Where did you get your MD ???


Graham

 

[Pooh Bear]

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

If you push the green button you get up out of the chair without a
parachute. If you push the red button the parachute comes along when
you rise up, and you are ready to run out through the door or any
opening.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.

Sorry. This is *so* funny it has to be crossposted.

Here's a live one for you Bertie.

Graham

 

[Pooh Bear]

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Roger Johansson" <no-email@no.invalid> wrote in
news:xn0e2ccckf6w91a006@news.sunsite.dk:

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

Dumb idea,just from the liability standpoint,it would never be accepted.
Several other reasons,too.


wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

Recall the seat-belt interlocks from the mid-70s? How many people could not
get their car to start,or had it stop working and strand them?
Enough that that idea died a fast death.As these "ideas" should.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

If you push the green button you get up out of the chair without a
parachute. If you push the red button the parachute comes along when
you rise up, and you are ready to run out through the door or any
opening.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.

This just gets dumber and dumber.I suspect you have never jumped out of any
plane.(I haven't,but I know a tiny little bit about it)

Just think about jumping out of a jet flying at 150-200 MPH.Then think
about fighter jet ejection seats and what those pilots go through in
leaving their plane.

Actually most modern passenger jets happily cruise at around 0.8 - 0.85 Mach at
altitude.

Graham

 

[Pooh Bear]

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Taylor wrote:

It would be a lot easier to control dosage and ventilation systems
aboard an aeroplane than it was in a Moscow Theatre.

Particularly if you tell your medics what they'll be treating.

And apply antidotes and oxygen a lot faster than in Moscow.

In an aeroplane there could be an antidote gas system too.

Like In Mission Impossible ? ;-)


Graham

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:428AFD8C.98ED6005@hotmail.com...

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Taylor wrote:

It would be a lot easier to control dosage and ventilation systems
aboard an aeroplane than it was in a Moscow Theatre.

Particularly if you tell your medics what they'll be treating.

And apply antidotes and oxygen a lot faster than in Moscow.

In an aeroplane there could be an antidote gas system too.

Like In Mission Impossible ? ;-)


Graham

Clearly a few of the posts in this thread are from people who think MI is a

live telecast.

Cheers.

Ken

 

[Bertie the Bunyip]

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com>
sednews:428AFC9C.38C7A0DD@hotmail.com:

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

In an aeroplane we can check up on every passenger's vital signs,
through sensors in the chair. Breathing, pulse and movements should
be easy to detect in real time.

If you are going to require that people are in special chairs

All it takes is a microphone in the seat, and a computer system which
sorts out breathing sounds, pulse, and other movements.

wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the latch button from the seat
belts so that no-one can get out of the chairs to cause trouble.

That is also a good idea. Keep all passengers strapped in during the
journey. They can ask for permission to go to the bathroom, like in
school.

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute. When
you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

If you push the green button you get up out of the chair without a
parachute. If you push the red button the parachute comes along when
you rise up, and you are ready to run out through the door or any
opening.

In many problem situations the passengers could have been saved if they
had had parachutes on and had jumped out of the aeroplane.

Sorry. This is *so* funny it has to be crossposted.

Here's a live one for you Bertie.

What as opposed to a dead pasty faced impotent Brit who's idea of a good
time is pissing on his broken beer bottles on a spanish beach?




Bertie

 

[Pat Ford]

"Michael" <NoSpam@att.net> wrote in message
news:428A3EAD.A845645E@att.net...

Roger Johansson wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

By the way, every seat in an aeroplane should contain a parachute.
When you strap yourself into the seat you also strap on a parachute.

At the speed modern aircraft fly, a simple parachute is near useless.
Jumping out the door will be like jumping into fast running water
(have you ever tried that). The sudden change in direction and
position screws up your sense of which way is up and you end up with
your arms and legs wrenched around at random. It is not a good thing
to do.

I'd rather take my chances with a parachute in free air than staying in
a plane that is falling towards the ground.

I wouldn't like being on a ship without enough life jackets for all
passengers, so why shouldn't we have parachutes when we travel in
aeroplanes? It could come in handy in a very serious situation, that is
reason enough to have it as standard in all seats in all aeroplanes.

--
Roger J.


Return on investment would be vanishingly small. You wouldn't "take your
chances", chance would take you. Even strong persons trained in egress
occasionally die. Why do you seem to believe that Joe Business-Suit would
reach
terra firma alive (even if he could survive explosive decompression, lack
of
oxygen, and below-freezing temperature)?

I thought I heard that when a jet breaks up most of the people die very
early due to the forces the body gets hit with as the plane twists in its
death throes. I cant remember where I heard that so YMMV

Pat

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4286F1AC.8F6F6124@hotmail.com...

keith wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:22:31 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:


keith wrote:

I have no argument there. I just don't see any gain in arming the
back
end of the aircraft, including the air marshals.

I thought your 'air marshals' - lol - rode first ?

I haven no idea why you think "air marshal" is so funny. Try breaking
into the cockpit, even with that SEG on your face.

Well - you're the only country in the world to have ' air marshals ' (
although El Al has enhanced security and passenger 'screening ' ) - kinda
sounds a bit wild west to me - yet it helped not one bit on 9/11.

Air marshals are a bit like trying to shut the stable door after the horse
has
bolted don't you think ?

Never mind the US firearms obsession.

Graham

Not true - Australia for another has them, there may be more IIRC (which I
may not). Remember all the hijackings to Cuba back in the 60's or 70's?
Oddly, they stopped when air marshals took to shooting hijackers.

Ken

 

[Don Klipstein]

(with some snippage)
In article <pan.2005.05.19.02.39.27.319631@att.bizzzz>, keith wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 12:46:39 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

Says who ? You want to try a 300lb guy against a flimsy airplane door ?

The doors aren't all that flimsey anymore.

You lost the 'argument'. Firearms are no answer.

...bacause *you* said so? I get it. You limp-wristed euro-pricks hate
guns, so they cannot be the answer to any problem.

Anyway - I don't expect any such hijacks of that sort to ever occur
again. Waste of time pursuing old ghosts.

They never would have if the cockpit was treated as a dead-zone. It
should be now, and forget the other crap.

I think pilots willing to carry, bear and use arms should do so. Maybe
have a reasonable training requirement. Also we should have armed trained
sky marshalls deployed to an actually significant and adequate extent,
whether or not we do so already.

One more thing: In the weeks after 9/11 I have heard proposals to make
jetliners have a double set of doors/barriers to the cockpit. I believe
El Al does this. I believe we should do what El Al does. How often does
one manage to hijack an El Al flight, which I surely believe many
terrorist groups would really want to pull off?

Although I believe that on a hijacked American flight you will find a
couple dozen people who will be gladiators as soon as anyone says "Let's
Roll", and I will kick and bend backwards 179 degrees the arms of a 300
pound terrorist and die fighting him before letting him crash the White
House even if I voted against its occupant, I also believe that USA
airlines should disobey their bean counters and rip out the front row of
seats and install double wall and door cockpit barriers made with maybe
3/8 inch 6061 aluminum alloy (or whatever is necessary to not be breakable
if kicked by a 300 pound kickboxer training to damage heavy inanimate
objects). That can save lives by avoiding need for someone to say "Let's
Roll" or results of doing so affecting control of the aircraft by those
who are supposed to do so.

I don't mind sinking my teeth in painful ways into muscles of terrorists
if it looks like I will die if I don't, or die no matter what I do. But I
surely want America's planes to be less of a target - what I most want is
a flight being peaceful as in resulting from appearing to terrorists to be
"no can do"!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)