OT:Prevent Airline Hijacking

Pooh Bear wrote:

Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.


Most aircraft still have some form of mechanical linkage to the control
surfaces.

Dream on.
Thanks, I will.

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
 
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:4282D210.35E58FCC@Hovnanian.com...
Mac wrote:

[snip]

Why non-lethal? If there is a minor problem such as a drunk or rowdy
passenger, the other passengers can deal with it just fine. An
undercover
security guard should reveal his or herself only when there is a
probability of hijacking or serious bodily injury, and in that
situation,
it seems to me that lethal force might be the way to go. Especially if
there is only one guard and several hijackers.

That's standard operating procedure. It would be trivial for one
hijacker to start a commotion and have the marshalls try to break it up,
revealing themselves in the process.

Have members of the cabin crew equipped with cattle prods or something
similar to put down obnoxious passengers.


Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already
breached by
cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off the hinges.
Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for other reasons.
IOW,not practical.


Well, as part of a multi-tiered effort, it is probably not a bad idea.
But
arming the pilots and or putting under-cover feds on the airplanes could
also be part of the solution.

Sometimes I joke that instead of taking away sharp things from
passengers
they should give knives to every passenger as they board. Think about
it.
The good guys always outnumber the bad guys. What we need is to make
sure
the bad guys can't overcome this numerical superiority with weapons.

Strangely, I have never found anyone who agrees with me. ;-)

A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft. Aside from the
problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of competence
among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really isn't for
police either), I don't think its a bad idea.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
At some point it becomes necessary to behead all the architects and
begin construction. -- Abi-Bar-Shim (Project Mgr. - Great Pyramid)
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.
How about if there is a commotion the pilots drop the o2 in the cabin and
everyone back there goes to sleep.
Pat
 
Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
news:U5ednWyfNt5RNB_fRVn-sQ@comcast.com:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
news:5bmdneOLQeUvFB_fRVn-uw@comcast.com:


Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a
secret override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code
to take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand
codes secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline
industry.
This prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the
breakins to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't
know enough about security to protect important information. The
codes would leak, and we'd have terrorists flying planes into
buildings by remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap
and effective.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen



Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)


Perhaps, but pilots shouldn't really be worried about security, they
should be worried about flying.

That is a common invalid excuse for not arming pilots.
If hijackers are coming into the cockpit,they will not be flying for very
long if unarmed.
AND there's TWO pilots;one defends,the other gets the plane on the ground
fast.Maybe some aggressive maneuvering to unbalance/damage/kill the
unbelted hijackers.

And the security and well-being of the plane and it's passengers IS the
Number One job of the pilots,more than anyone else aboard.

Making them into security guards is
not an effective use of talent. Perhaps hiring a few private security
guards, that could dress so as not to be noticed, who were armed with
non-lethal weapons might be a better way to go.
You still have extra salaries and pensions to pay,and after some time,they
could be recognized by frequent fliers or surveillance.
The pilots are already on the payroll,in the right place.
It's not a hard job,cockpit defense,the attackers have to come thru a
narrow door,single file.And armed pilots complicates the task of getting
into the cockpit enough that it would not be attempted;too little chance
for success.


"Non-lethal weapons";what a JOKE.
They're coming in to KILL the pilots,then use the entire plane as a
weapon,and kill everyone on board along with perhaps thousands on the
ground.(worst-case scenario)

What so-called "non-lethal" weapons did you have in mind??
They have to be capable of dealing with as many as 10
attackers;rapidly,effectively,and not give the attackers ANY chance of
dragging down the one wielding the "non-lethal" weapon.The weapon must also
not inadvertantly affect the good guys.

Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already
breached by cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off
the hinges. Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for
other reasons. IOW,not practical.


Actually, I was thinking total isolation of the pilots; no physical
path between cockpit and passenger zone, with no communication forward
except a single button in the passenger area, secured with a code,
that meant 'emergency, land as soon as possible'. They would need
their own bathroom... ;)
Ain't gonna happen;theres too many aircraft already in service,and could
not be modified/or expense too high.


Armed pilots also meets the KISS rule.
Far better than anything you have suggested.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in
news:4282D210.35E58FCC@Hovnanian.com:



A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft.
Along with US Law Enforcement personnel that might be travelling.

Aside from
the problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of
competence among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really
isn't for police either), I don't think its a bad idea.

If you really think about that;it does complicate the situation well past
the point where the chances of successful hijack are slim to none.
You cannot plan for such an unknown.

Also,this would be a situation where the very lives of the passengers,and
on-ground civilians would be at stake.One could even offer a course for
concealed carry/cockpit defense.

The one problem I see is that where armed pilots would be firing towards
the rear of the plane thru the cockpit doorway,with possible
injuries/deaths of passengers,armed people in the passenger compartment
would be firing towards the PILOTS,the most flight-critical item. ;-}

The cockpit instrumentation has backups and very low probability of hitting
something that would prevent the plane from flying/landing.The pilots would
be the main worry.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in news:d5vjbj$so4$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.
This is a myth.it even was debunked on Mythbusters TV show.
(explosive decompression)


How about if there is a commotion the pilots drop the o2 in the cabin
and
everyone back there goes to sleep.
Pat
The pilots do not have control over the O2 levels.
Perhaps cabin pressure,yes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in
news:4282CF77.EDBE8302@Hovnanian.com:

Jim Yanik wrote:

[snip]

Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)

Air Marshalls are neither cheap or plentiful,not even enough to cover
the East Coast flights.They also are EASILY spotted,they MUST wear a
suit,even on frights from hot climates.

Why must they wear a suit? As a uniform? Not likely.
Yes,it is a strict TSA rule.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:4282D210.35E58FCC@Hovnanian.com...
A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft. Aside from the
problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of competence
among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really isn't for
police either), I don't think its a bad idea.
So you have a bunch of terrorist carrying weapons, the general public pulls
theirs, so do the the marshalls, not to mention the tipical yahoo, and you
expect them all in panic to control themselves?

--
Steve Sousa
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns9654738731BEjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in news:d5vjbj$so4$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.

This is a myth.it even was debunked on Mythbusters TV show.
(explosive decompression)


How about if there is a commotion the pilots drop the o2 in the cabin
and
everyone back there goes to sleep.
Pat


The pilots do not have control over the O2 levels.
Perhaps cabin pressure,yes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Really, I dont think that is the case ( trace my IP), where I work we have
a pretty good idea of the effect of pressure differences across openings.
Ask a commercial diver what a 1 psi pressure drop can do ( I spent 3 hours
penned to a dam by the palm of my hand).
It is around 9 psi pressure drop in a super critical pressure vessel, once
the skin is peirced it tears open aided by both the air rushing along the
aircraft and the air rushing through the hole.
We have a 737 here at work that we are doing end of life testing, the skin
is not that thick..

If the pilot drops the cabin pressure the O2 partial pressure drops to the
point that it is similar to droping the O2 concentration.
Pat
 
On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:50:46 +0000, Mac wrote:
Sometimes I joke that instead of taking away sharp things from passengers
they should give knives to every passenger as they board. Think about it.
The good guys always outnumber the bad guys. What we need is to make sure
the bad guys can't overcome this numerical superiority with weapons.

Strangely, I have never found anyone who agrees with me. ;-)
Scott Adams: "Atheist Airlines":
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/dnrc/html/newsletter49.html
scroll about 4/5 the way down the page, under "New Airline Idea".

And then, there's these guys:
http://www.humorweb.no/bilder.php?id=638

Cheers!
Rich
 
On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:22:01 +0000, Jim Yanik wrote:

"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in news:d5vjbj$so4$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.

This is a myth.it even was debunked on Mythbusters TV show.
(explosive decompression)

I think he's probably thinking "Goldfinger".
;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:23:15 -0700, Luhan Monat wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:


Luhan Monat wrote:


Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


Oi !

Put your tin-foil hat back on.

Graham


Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.
Communication satellites - Arthur C Clarke, 1945, albeit he might have
been speaking as a "real" scientist at the time. (this sprang to mind
because it was a Jeopardy answer the other night)

Dick Tracy's 2-way wrist TV, except it's become an ear appendage, which
was foreseen by Mad Magazine.

Cheers!
Rich
 
Rich Grise wrote:

Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.


Communication satellites - Arthur C Clarke, 1945, albeit he might have
been speaking as a "real" scientist at the time. (this sprang to mind
because it was a Jeopardy answer the other night)

Dick Tracy's 2-way wrist TV, except it's become an ear appendage, which
was foreseen by Mad Magazine.

Cheers!
Rich


Engineering Axiom: "Any project is 'science fiction' until you
actually make it work."

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
 
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:50:46 +0000, Mac wrote:
Sometimes I joke that instead of taking away sharp things from passengers
they should give knives to every passenger as they board. Think about it.
The good guys always outnumber the bad guys. What we need is to make sure
the bad guys can't overcome this numerical superiority with weapons.

Strangely, I have never found anyone who agrees with me. ;-)

Scott Adams: "Atheist Airlines":
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/dnrc/html/newsletter49.html
scroll about 4/5 the way down the page, under "New Airline Idea".
Reminds me of my idea to keep Jihadist terrorists from boarding the plane.

Every passenger has to eat a bacon sandwich before boarding. That'll keep them
off your flight. ;-)

Graham
 
Rich Grise wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:23:15 -0700, Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.

Communication satellites - Arthur C Clarke, 1945, albeit he might have
been speaking as a "real" scientist at the time. (this sprang to mind
because it was a Jeopardy answer the other night)
It was indeed 'real science'.

There was an article by him describing it in Wireless World - subsequently
reprinted decades later as an anniversery item IIRC.

Graham
 
Rich Grise wrote:

Communication satellites - Arthur C Clarke, 1945,
Actually it was *geostationary* satellites that he forsaw ! Pretty clever to
work that one out before anything had ever been launched.

Graham
 
"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in news:d6063n$84q$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns9654738731BEjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in
news:d5vjbj$so4$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to
similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.

This is a myth.it even was debunked on Mythbusters TV show.
(explosive decompression)


How about if there is a commotion the pilots drop the o2 in the
cabin and
everyone back there goes to sleep.
Pat


The pilots do not have control over the O2 levels.
Perhaps cabin pressure,yes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Really, I dont think that is the case ( trace my IP), where I work we
have
a pretty good idea of the effect of pressure differences across
openings.
Ask a commercial diver what a 1 psi pressure drop can do ( I spent 3
hours
penned to a dam by the palm of my hand).
It is around 9 psi pressure drop in a super critical pressure vessel,
once
the skin is peirced it tears open aided by both the air rushing along
the aircraft and the air rushing through the hole.
We have a 737 here at work that we are doing end of life testing, the
skin
is not that thick..

If the pilot drops the cabin pressure the O2 partial pressure drops
to the
point that it is similar to droping the O2 concentration.
Pat
Reference the Ahoha flight that had a huge section of skin tear off and
still landed safely,one one person was lost IIRC,a flight attendant not
belted in.


You just are not going to get what you expect from a .5" hole thru soft
aluminum.The cabin pressure regulating valve is huge compared to any dozen
bullet holes,something like a yard in diameter.It would compensate for the
tiny airflow change.

Again,this depressurization thing has been totally debunked already,long
ago.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
"Steve Sousa" <etsteve@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4283917e$0$72045$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:4282D210.35E58FCC@Hovnanian.com...
A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft. Aside from
the problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of
competence among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really
isn't for police either), I don't think its a bad idea.

So you have a bunch of terrorist carrying weapons, the general public
pulls theirs, so do the the marshalls, not to mention the tipical
yahoo, and you expect them all in panic to control themselves?
If the terrorists know (or suspect)that there are armed people aboard,they
choose other,easier targets.

Why do people always think that one who goes to the trouble and expense of
obtaining a concealed carry license would be a "yahoo"? That is simply
uninformed bias.
They bothered to learn the laws concerning such carry,their
responsibilities,and have PROVEN themselves (as a group) as safe and
trustworthy,more so than police as a group.Data from the 34 US states that
have allowed concealed carry show this.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 
Jim Yanik wrote:
"Pat Ford" <pat.ford@nrc.ca> wrote in news:d5vjbj$so4$1@nrc-news.nrc.ca:
Have you seen the pictures of a jet that was pressurized to similate
highing at 30K foot and then shot with a gun? Not pretty.

This is a myth.it even was debunked on Mythbusters TV show.
(explosive decompression)
The test that was performed was of an amount of plastic explosives
sufficient to rip open a seam in the aircraft skin. The pressure
difference keeps such a rip going.

Aircraft are designed and certified to be able to withstand quite a few
punctures from events like turbine blade shedding and not explode,
decompress violently or loose critical systems function. They can loose
at least one cabin window without problems. With a few bullet holes, the
pressurization system should have no trouble maintaining cabin pressure.

People getting sucked out holes is a myth. There was a 747 that lost a
cargo door and a chunk of the passenger cabin wall at altitude. Other
than the poor guy whose seat was attached to the chunk of airplane that
got ripped out, nobody else went out the hole.

And then there's the Hawaiian 737 with the convertible top.....

How about if there is a commotion the pilots drop the o2 in the cabin
and
everyone back there goes to sleep.
Pat


The pilots do not have control over the O2 levels.
Perhaps cabin pressure,yes.
Not really. The flight crew has minimal control over cabin pressure
outside of certain limits. They can equalize to the outside at low
altitudes, but the system is pretty well idiot-proofed at other times.
Back in the old days, there was a hatch in the roof of a 747 that could
be opened in flight (at low altitudes and low speeds) to allow the crew
to perform celestial navigation in the event their primary nav systems
failed.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes."
(If you can read this, you're overeducated.)
 
Steve Sousa wrote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:4282D210.35E58FCC@Hovnanian.com...
A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft. Aside from the
problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of competence
among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really isn't for
police either), I don't think its a bad idea.

So you have a bunch of terrorist carrying weapons, the general public pulls
theirs, so do the the marshalls, not to mention the tipical yahoo, and you
expect them all in panic to control themselves?
No. I think the terrorists would loose bladder control at that point.
;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet the human brain is a kludge. -- Marvin Minsky
 
On Thu, 12 May 2005 18:18:14 -0700, the renowned "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:


People getting sucked out holes is a myth. There was a 747 that lost a
cargo door and a chunk of the passenger cabin wall at altitude. Other
than the poor guy whose seat was attached to the chunk of airplane that
got ripped out, nobody else went out the hole.

It's not entirely a myth:

http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/dc10.htm


1. 3 November 1973; National Airlines DC10; over New Mexico, USA: The
aircraft had an uncontained failure of one of the wing mounted
engines. A piece of the engine struck the fuselage and broke a
passenger window. One of the 116 passengers was sucked out of the
aircraft during a rapid decompression. The remains of the passenger
were not found.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 

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