OT: Overly complicated technology that doesn't work

[Graham Cooper]

On May 6, 7:44 am, Brad <goog...@vk2qq.com> wrote:

On May 6, 7:38 am, "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait
longer than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat,
lit the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time,
and it was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven
doesn't work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally gets
into a state where it refuses to relight the gas, and essentially
turns itself off without any warning. The first one knows about it is
when one goes to remove the food, and discovers that it's not cooked
(though by how much is anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change the
design to something that doesn't?

**Oh stop whining, you stupid, whinging Pom. When I was a kid, we had an
electric oven. When the power went out, we didn't eat. Now I still have an
electric oven. When the power goes out, I don't eat. Or, more likely, I go
out and find a place to buy some food. Something I couldn't do as a kid,
since pretty much nothing was open after 5:30PM.

Further to your silly rant:

I presume you are typing this missive on an electric computer. Your computer
has more power than a Cray supercomputer from the 1980s. It has more power
than the combined power of all the computers on the planet in the early
1960s. All thanks to technology.

Here's a thought for you: Buy a microwave oven and connect it to your petrol
generator. Presto: Food.

--
Trevor Wilsonwww.rageaudio.com.au

Trevor, the rant was about innovation. Much of what we see today is
not true innovation but more like a repackaging of several old
innovations.-

Brad, can I have a word?

 

[terryc]

David Segall wrote:

As an example, have you noticed that everyone near you has recently
acquired an iPhone?

Chuckle, i can just see the kidsx standing there saying "But mum/dad
EVERYONE has one" in there attempts to get some new fad.

<Yet to buy a mobile phone, or a laptop computer, etc>

 

[terryc]

Brad wrote:

Trevor, the rant was about innovation. Much of what we see today is
not true innovation but more like a repackaging of several old
innovations.

Sums it up ncely and when you didn't see any need for the old shite, you
chuckle at the new shite.

 

[terryc]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she connected the
electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator. In fact, the electric
portion consumes so little power, than a car battery and a small DC-AC
inverter could have been used. Sylvia has the technical abilities to manage
this task with consumate ease.

Probably. The ignitor part of our gas cooktop (the oven is electric) has
failed. When I contacted the parts place, there were both mains and
battery versions available.

 

[| || ||| ||||| || |]

"David Segall" <david@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:kdf5s6pp6meteb2ql6ejotd7v8irp3u76g@4ax.com...

"Herman" <ripe@bellsouth.net> wrote:

You don't see much innovation because what you see as innovations are
usually the result of someone taking advantage of the conjunction of
old technologies that have matured and can be sold as a "new" product.
As an example, have you noticed that everyone near you has recently
acquired an iPhone?

No, but then most of the people near me have a few quid left.
We tend to follow along in a few years and leapfrog all the pools of blood left as the
bleeding edge moves on.

The matured or innovative tech that drives the mobile devices isn't the integrated
electronics.
What drives them all is the battery developments.
I am actually very impressed by that, even if power density is becoming a fire/explosion
hazard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc

If you don't have battery life you just don't have an iphone, you have an
idrinkscoaster.

Which comes back to the gas oven, gas cookers that require power for temperature control
and probably a fan as well. No backup, no use of heat to top up the backup?
I have a hand cranked LED light , a gas stove with a crank start would be a thing, you can
get handcranked radios and probably iphones.
Hey, kerosene fridges were an innovation.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 7:38 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait
longer than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat,
lit the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time,
and it was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven
doesn't work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally gets
into a state where it refuses to relight the gas, and essentially
turns itself off without any warning. The first one knows about it is
when one goes to remove the food, and discovers that it's not cooked
(though by how much is anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change the
design to something that doesn't?

**Oh stop whining, you stupid, whinging Pom. When I was a kid, we had an
electric oven. When the power went out, we didn't eat. Now I still have an
electric oven. When the power goes out, I don't eat. Or, more likely, I go
out and find a place to buy some food. Something I couldn't do as a kid,
since pretty much nothing was open after 5:30PM.

Further to your silly rant:

I presume you are typing this missive on an electric computer. Your computer
has more power than a Cray supercomputer from the 1980s. It has more power
than the combined power of all the computers on the planet in the early
1960s. All thanks to technology.

Here's a thought for you: Buy a microwave oven and connect it to your petrol
generator. Presto: Food.

The food packaging recommended using conventional oven.

The fact that I have a computer that is more powerful than a Cray was
doesn't alter the fact that my food, which should have been cooked, was
not, nor the fact that something which on the face of it is pretty
trivial to implement has neverthess been designed or constructed with a
fault.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 8:03 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she connected the
electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator. In fact, the electric
portion consumes so little power, than a car battery and a small DC-AC
inverter could have been used. Sylvia has the technical abilities to manage
this task with consumate ease.

IOW: It was a non-problem. She was just having a whinge.

Looks like you sought to criticise my post (or was it me) without having
read it properly. The problem was not that the oven could not cook
during a power outage, but that for some unknown reason it decided not
to cook despite power being available.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Sylvia Else wrote:

On 6/05/2011 8:03 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she
connected the electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator.
In fact, the electric portion consumes so little power, than a car
battery and a small DC-AC inverter could have been used. Sylvia has
the technical abilities to manage this task with consumate ease.

IOW: It was a non-problem. She was just having a whinge.



Looks like you sought to criticise my post (or was it me) without
having read it properly. The problem was not that the oven could not
cook during a power outage, but that for some unknown reason it
decided not to cook despite power being available.

**This is the line I focussed on:

"Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven doesn't work during
power cuts,"

Ovens are extremely simple devices (their control sections are barely more
than a fancy clock/radio, without the radio). Finding and sorting out the
issue should take little time. I'd suggest replacing any electrolytic caps
in the control section. They will likely be rated at 125 degrees C or
higher. Element 14 should be able to provide suitable replacements.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Sylvia Else wrote:

On 6/05/2011 7:38 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait
longer than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat,
lit the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time,
and it was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven
doesn't work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally
gets into a state where it refuses to relight the gas, and
essentially turns itself off without any warning. The first one
knows about it is when one goes to remove the food, and discovers
that it's not cooked (though by how much is anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change
the design to something that doesn't?

**Oh stop whining, you stupid, whinging Pom. When I was a kid, we
had an electric oven. When the power went out, we didn't eat. Now I
still have an electric oven. When the power goes out, I don't eat.
Or, more likely, I go out and find a place to buy some food.
Something I couldn't do as a kid, since pretty much nothing was open
after 5:30PM. Further to your silly rant:

I presume you are typing this missive on an electric computer. Your
computer has more power than a Cray supercomputer from the 1980s. It
has more power than the combined power of all the computers on the
planet in the early 1960s. All thanks to technology.

Here's a thought for you: Buy a microwave oven and connect it to
your petrol generator. Presto: Food.



The food packaging recommended using conventional oven.

**Packaged food? Urk.

The fact that I have a computer that is more powerful than a Cray was
doesn't alter the fact that my food, which should have been cooked,
was not, nor the fact that something which on the face of it is pretty
trivial to implement has neverthess been designed or constructed with
a fault.

**It is morely that there is a simple fault with the timer system. I'd look
at the electrolytic caps. Given the rigors of oven temperatures,
electrolytic caps are the parts most likely to fail prematurely. It is
certainly what failed in my oven. I didn't blame it on fancy technology, as
the control system allows for convenience not obtainable in the Victorian
era cooking equipment.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 11:48 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
On 6/05/2011 8:03 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she
connected the electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator.
In fact, the electric portion consumes so little power, than a car
battery and a small DC-AC inverter could have been used. Sylvia has
the technical abilities to manage this task with consumate ease.

IOW: It was a non-problem. She was just having a whinge.



Looks like you sought to criticise my post (or was it me) without
having read it properly. The problem was not that the oven could not
cook during a power outage, but that for some unknown reason it
decided not to cook despite power being available.

**This is the line I focussed on:

"Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven doesn't work during
power cuts,"

The words "Leaving aside" should have been a clue that that wasn't the
central point I was making.

Sylvia.

 

[Graham Cooper]

On May 6, 12:02 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 6/05/2011 11:48 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:





Sylvia Else wrote:
On 6/05/2011 8:03 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she
connected the electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator.
In fact, the electric portion consumes so little power, than a car
battery and a small DC-AC inverter could have been used. Sylvia has
the technical abilities to manage this task with consumate ease.

IOW: It was a non-problem. She was just having a whinge.

Looks like you sought to criticise my post (or was it me) without
having read it properly. The problem was not that the oven could not
cook during a power outage, but that for some unknown reason it
decided not to cook despite power being available.

**This is the line I focussed on:

"Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven doesn't work during
power cuts,"

The words "Leaving aside" should have been a clue that that wasn't the
central point I was making.

Sylvia

Sideways comments are pretty instrumental in todays vocabulary.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 12:01 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
On 6/05/2011 7:38 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait
longer than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat,
lit the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time,
and it was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven
doesn't work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally
gets into a state where it refuses to relight the gas, and
essentially turns itself off without any warning. The first one
knows about it is when one goes to remove the food, and discovers
that it's not cooked (though by how much is anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change
the design to something that doesn't?

**Oh stop whining, you stupid, whinging Pom. When I was a kid, we
had an electric oven. When the power went out, we didn't eat. Now I
still have an electric oven. When the power goes out, I don't eat.
Or, more likely, I go out and find a place to buy some food.
Something I couldn't do as a kid, since pretty much nothing was open
after 5:30PM. Further to your silly rant:

I presume you are typing this missive on an electric computer. Your
computer has more power than a Cray supercomputer from the 1980s. It
has more power than the combined power of all the computers on the
planet in the early 1960s. All thanks to technology.

Here's a thought for you: Buy a microwave oven and connect it to
your petrol generator. Presto: Food.



The food packaging recommended using conventional oven.

**Packaged food? Urk.


The fact that I have a computer that is more powerful than a Cray was
doesn't alter the fact that my food, which should have been cooked,
was not, nor the fact that something which on the face of it is pretty
trivial to implement has neverthess been designed or constructed with
a fault.

**It is morely that there is a simple fault with the timer system. I'd look
at the electrolytic caps. Given the rigors of oven temperatures,
electrolytic caps are the parts most likely to fail prematurely. It is
certainly what failed in my oven. I didn't blame it on fancy technology, as
the control system allows for convenience not obtainable in the Victorian
era cooking equipment.

The user manual (who reads those?) devotes most of a page to the issues
associated with failure to ignite the gas, and describes pretty much the
behaviour I've seen. It looks like either the igniter doesn't work
properly (though it works most of the time), or the flame sensor doesn't
(ditto). What's clearly lacking in the design is any sort of alarm to
alert the user to the problem. The user is expected to observe that the
system has adopted a "safe" state by noting that the thermostat
indicator is on, but the flame is off, which is a tad hard to do if
one's in a different room at the time.

The old gas ovens solved the problem of gas not igniting during cooking
by reducing the flame when the oven was hot enough, rather than
extinguishing it.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 9:56 AM, terryc wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia's problem with her oven could have been solved, had she
connected the electric portion of the oven to her petrol generator. In
fact, the electric portion consumes so little power, than a car
battery and a small DC-AC inverter could have been used. Sylvia has
the technical abilities to manage this task with consumate ease.

Probably. The ignitor part of our gas cooktop (the oven is electric) has
failed. When I contacted the parts place, there were both mains and
battery versions available.

If the oven just plain didn't work, I'd have a chance of fixing it, and
knowing that I had. As things stand, it misbehaves just occasionally.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Sylvia Else wrote:

On 6/05/2011 12:01 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 6/05/2011 7:38 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait
longer than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the
thermostat, lit the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the
required time, and it was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled
by turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be
repeatedly reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that
a gas oven doesn't work during power cuts, for some reason mine
occasionally gets into a state where it refuses to relight the
gas, and essentially turns itself off without any warning. The
first one knows about it is when one goes to remove the food, and
discovers that it's not cooked (though by how much is anyone's
guess). Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to
change
the design to something that doesn't?

**Oh stop whining, you stupid, whinging Pom. When I was a kid, we
had an electric oven. When the power went out, we didn't eat. Now I
still have an electric oven. When the power goes out, I don't eat.
Or, more likely, I go out and find a place to buy some food.
Something I couldn't do as a kid, since pretty much nothing was
open after 5:30PM. Further to your silly rant:

I presume you are typing this missive on an electric computer. Your
computer has more power than a Cray supercomputer from the 1980s.
It has more power than the combined power of all the computers on
the planet in the early 1960s. All thanks to technology.

Here's a thought for you: Buy a microwave oven and connect it to
your petrol generator. Presto: Food.



The food packaging recommended using conventional oven.

**Packaged food? Urk.


The fact that I have a computer that is more powerful than a Cray
was doesn't alter the fact that my food, which should have been
cooked, was not, nor the fact that something which on the face of
it is pretty trivial to implement has neverthess been designed or
constructed with a fault.

**It is morely that there is a simple fault with the timer system.
I'd look at the electrolytic caps. Given the rigors of oven
temperatures, electrolytic caps are the parts most likely to fail
prematurely. It is certainly what failed in my oven. I didn't blame
it on fancy technology, as the control system allows for convenience
not obtainable in the Victorian era cooking equipment.



The user manual (who reads those?) devotes most of a page to the
issues associated with failure to ignite the gas, and describes
pretty much the behaviour I've seen. It looks like either the igniter
doesn't work properly (though it works most of the time), or the
flame sensor doesn't (ditto). What's clearly lacking in the design is
any sort of alarm to alert the user to the problem. The user is
expected to observe that the system has adopted a "safe" state by
noting that the thermostat indicator is on, but the flame is off,
which is a tad hard to do if one's in a different room at the time.

The old gas ovens solved the problem of gas not igniting during
cooking by reducing the flame when the oven was hot enough, rather
than extinguishing it.

**Meanwhile, those of us in more enlightened areas have electrically powered
ovens (I accept the clear advantages of gas cooktops), which don't seem to
have the sorts of silly problems you've encountered. We certainly don't cook
"packaged foods". Fresh is best.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 6/05/2011 4:26 PM, Wolfgang Wildeblood wrote:

On May 6, 12:59 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:

The user manual (who reads those?) devotes most of a page to the issues
associated with failure to ignite the gas, and describes pretty much the
behaviour I've seen. It looks like either the igniter doesn't work
properly (though it works most of the time), or the flame sensor doesn't
(ditto). What's clearly lacking in the design is any sort of alarm to
alert the user to the problem. The user is expected to observe that the
system has adopted a "safe" state by noting that the thermostat
indicator is on, but the flame is off, which is a tad hard to do if
one's in a different room at the time.

Sylvia, I suggest you install a video surveillance system so you can
observe your oven while in other rooms. It need not be anything fancy,
just a cheap webcam connected to your home LAN.

I was thinking of something more sophisticated to monitor the states of
the flame and thermostat light, and sound a klaxon audible three streets
away if there's a discrepancy.

Sylvia.

 

[Coach]

On May 5, 10:07 pm, "Herman" <r...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message

news:92f5h9Fu4fU1@mid.individual.net...



This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait longer
than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat, lit
the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time, and it
was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven doesn't
work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally gets into a
state where it refuses to relight the gas, and essentially turns itself
off without any warning. The first one knows about it is when one goes to
remove the food, and discovers that it's not cooked (though by how much is
anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change the
design to something that doesn't?

Hungry Sylvia.

I will rant in the same area but with a different uptake on the problem.  I
am in my 60s.  I saw the development of the integrated circuit, space travel
era, color TV, computers, cell phones.  I was part of that and as an
electronics engineer participated in much of this development.  

OK, let's cut the bullshit right now before you even begin. The first
space travel program was the Mercury Program in 1958, so if we are to
take your word as true, you were a fully qualified electronics
engineer employed by NASA at what, 7 years of age or so? I'm
surprised we have not heard of you before now.

 

[Kelpie]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:92f5h9Fu4fU1@mid.individual.net...

This is a short rant prompted by the fact that I'll have to wait longer
than I expected for my dinner.

When I was a child, we had a simple gas oven. It had a mechanical
thermostat that controlled the flow of gas. You set the thermostat, lit
the oven, let it warm up, put the food in for the required time, and it
was ready.

Now we have gas ovens with electronics. Temperature is controlled by
turning the gas on and off, which requires that it be repeatedly
reignited. Leaving aside the fact that this means that a gas oven doesn't
work during power cuts, for some reason mine occasionally gets into a
state where it refuses to relight the gas, and essentially turns itself
off without any warning. The first one knows about it is when one goes to
remove the food, and discovers that it's not cooked (though by how much is
anyone's guess).

Ovens worked reliably 40 years ago. Why was it necessary to change the
design to something that doesn't?

Hungry Sylvia.

Most would recommend installing an electric oven, with a gas cook top. Chuck
it out and buy a new one.

 

[Wolfgang Wildeblood]

On May 6, 12:59 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:

The user manual (who reads those?) devotes most of a page to the issues
associated with failure to ignite the gas, and describes pretty much the
behaviour I've seen. It looks like either the igniter doesn't work
properly (though it works most of the time), or the flame sensor doesn't
(ditto). What's clearly lacking in the design is any sort of alarm to
alert the user to the problem. The user is expected to observe that the
system has adopted a "safe" state by noting that the thermostat
indicator is on, but the flame is off, which is a tad hard to do if
one's in a different room at the time.

Sylvia, I suggest you install a video surveillance system so you can
observe your oven while in other rooms. It need not be anything fancy,
just a cheap webcam connected to your home LAN.

 

[Graham Cooper]

On May 6, 4:26 pm, Wolfgang Wildeblood <wolfgangwildebl...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On May 6, 12:59 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:

The user manual (who reads those?) devotes most of a page to the issues
associated with failure to ignite the gas, and describes pretty much the
behaviour I've seen. It looks like either the igniter doesn't work
properly (though it works most of the time), or the flame sensor doesn't
(ditto). What's clearly lacking in the design is any sort of alarm to
alert the user to the problem. The user is expected to observe that the
system has adopted a "safe" state by noting that the thermostat
indicator is on, but the flame is off, which is a tad hard to do if
one's in a different room at the time.

Sylvia, I suggest you install a video surveillance system so you can
observe your oven while in other rooms. It need not be anything fancy,
just a cheap webcam connected to your home LAN.

I know people who'd pay to watch a chicken roasting!

I might have a quick glimpse myself on voyeur view..


--
www.CamGirls.com $2/min

 

[Brad]

On May 6, 11:48 am, "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

Element 14 should be able to provide suitable replacements.

What were Farnell execs thinking? Element 14? Why didn't they go for
iPart 2.0 ?