OT: house fires - electrical fault

[Rod Speed]

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:02FGy.11933$MU7.5370@fx33.am4...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0k3sFqcr8U1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:81CGy.80184$4l5.4368@fx37.am4...


"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7aa603ca-ddb2-4b93-a6e9-702b20e3b17e@googlegroups.com...
John G wrote:



Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if
we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)


** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.

Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying
capacity of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only
one power circuit.

The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.

Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously
almost none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus
also allows the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held
appliances.

AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to blow the then panel fuse.

With a ring main with a 36A fuse, possibly. But that is so rare
that it makes no sense to be mandating that all plugs must
have an internal fuse when that makes them MUCH less reliable.

And that is what the entire rest of the world has decided.

A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of ignited carpets.

And now with far fewer rugs used, it just isnt a problem anymore.

The plug top fuse is all about preventing that

How odd that no one else needed to do that.

- but its still possible to create an ignition point before the fuse
fails. Its not only important to have that fuse, but to use the lowest
rating that will work reliably with the supplied appliance.

The entire rest of the world knows otherwise.

The yanks build timer frame & drywall in tornado alley - it hardly makes
much difference whether it burns down or blows away in a storm.

And fuck all else of the world is that stupid.

We don't have any more houses burn down that you lot do.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:z7FGy.119571$zA3.89485@fx38.am4...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0kgvFqgcmU1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:VgCGy.126812$Mw2.10757@fx35.am4...


"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:



Nope,

** Yes it is.


How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,


** Not odd - you snipped them.


Fact.

** No it isn't.



If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.


** Massive fallacy.


Not the issue at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.



Millions of homes do.

Sweet fuck all do.


** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.



Power and light are separate circuits.

Still power


** Still separate circuits.



Fraid it is correct.

Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.

** No we don't.


Like hell it does.

Wrong, as always.


** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.

My win, as always.

FOAD ASAP.

Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................

Never happened. And when I had moved into the house
I had built on a bare block of land, well before it was legal
to move in, I powered the entire house from the builder's
temporary supply by plugging the entire house in using
a jesus adapter.

I used a long lead from the pole that the builder's temporary
supply was on to the fascia of the house closest to the temp
supply. I had a knot in that lead there which was a melted
enough so I had to cut it off when the council eventually
demanded that I connect the house properly.

Wouldn't have mattered if it did short at the knot, it would
have just blown the fuse in the meter box on the builder's
temporary supply. No fire, no nothing.

You certainly qualify for a Darwin Award

Nope, I know what is perfectly safe, even if you're too stupid to work that
out.

 

[Ian Field]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:z7FGy.119571$zA3.89485@fx38.am4...


"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0kgvFqgcmU1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:VgCGy.126812$Mw2.10757@fx35.am4...


"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:



Nope,

** Yes it is.


How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,


** Not odd - you snipped them.


Fact.

** No it isn't.



If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.


** Massive fallacy.


Not the issue at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.



Millions of homes do.

Sweet fuck all do.


** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.



Power and light are separate circuits.

Still power


** Still separate circuits.



Fraid it is correct.

Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.

** No we don't.


Like hell it does.

Wrong, as always.


** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.

My win, as always.

FOAD ASAP.

Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................

Never happened. And when I had moved into the house
I had built on a bare block of land, well before it was legal
to move in, I powered the entire house from the builder's
temporary supply by plugging the entire house in using
a jesus adapter.

I used a long lead from the pole that the builder's temporary
supply was on to the fascia of the house closest to the temp
supply. I had a knot in that lead there which was a melted
enough so I had to cut it off when the council eventually
demanded that I connect the house properly.

Wouldn't have mattered if it did short at the knot, it would
have just blown the fuse in the meter box on the builder's
temporary supply. No fire, no nothing.

You certainly qualify for a Darwin Award

Nope, I know what is perfectly safe, even if you're too stupid to work
that out.

Pride before a fall etc etc and so on....................

 

[Phil Allison]

Ian Field wrote:

"Phil Allison"


** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.

Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.

The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and
the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.

Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously almost
none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also allows
the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.


AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets. The
insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault current to
blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of
ignited carpets.

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used - reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

If you add the use of a ring mains with 32A nominal capacity and double that in overload condition - then it cannot be considered safe without every plug containing a fuse capable of protecting the attached cable from catching fire.

As you mentioned, the use of an ELCB does the job much better since it detects any active-neutral imbalance and trips instantly.


..... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:93a57ce4-0c59-45ad-9b7f-8933ad8ec5ec@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field wrote:

"Phil Allison"


** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.

Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying
capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.

The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
and
the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.

Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously
almost
none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also
allows
the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.


AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The
insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault current
to
blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of
ignited carpets.


** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.

UK mains distribution is by an armoured cable which effectively takes the
form of co-ax. Live and neutral enter the property as one and the same,
there are often earth staps added to any copper plumbing just to make sure.

Shorting live to either E or N will blow the plugtop fuse and trip the ELCB.
The problem with cables hidden under carpet is the insulation gets crushed
when people keep walking on it. Getting a proper short is getting lucky, all
the dust and crap that falls through the carpet weave accumulates around
hidden cables and provides the possibility of tracking/arcing between
conductors with damaged insulation.

 

[Phil Allison]

Ian Field wrote:

" AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a frequent > cause of ignited carpets."


** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.


UK mains distribution is by an armoured cable ....

** But that was not the case in 1947 - which is the context here.

Rest of your dopey post snipped cos you changed the context.



...... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0dddf040-663d-4530-aa1c-4de65b22b727@googlegroups.com...

Ian Field wrote:


" AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under
carpets.
The insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a
frequent > cause of ignited carpets."


** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current -
200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance.
This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow
depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground
and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference
in
the short circuit current in both cases.


UK mains distribution is by an armoured cable ....


** But that was not the case in 1947 - which is the context here.

Back then every town had its own power company and no such thing as
standardisation.

Half the country had DC mains.

Its amazing that those old ways didn't drive us all back into caves.

 

[~misfit~]

Once upon a time on usenet Ian Field wrote:

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:



Nope,

** Yes it is.


How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,


** Not odd - you snipped them.


Fact.

** No it isn't.



If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.


** Massive fallacy.


Not the issue at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.



Millions of homes do.

Sweet fuck all do.


** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.



Power and light are separate circuits.

Still power


** Still separate circuits.



Fraid it is correct.

Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.

** No we don't.


Like hell it does.

Wrong, as always.


** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.

My win, as always.

FOAD ASAP.

Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................

If only! I've seen him in many groups and have had him killfiled for nearly
a decade.

If only people wouldn't feed the trolls they'd die out or go away.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return systems?

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural, both of
which have to use the Earth as the return. If the Earth resistance becomes
high enough, may it be unable to carry enough current to trip the fuse?

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[Ian Field]

"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncppob$18bf$1@gioia.aioe.org...

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow
depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Once upon a time, all water pipes were metal (often lead or iron back then)
Nowadays most water pipes are plastic and completely useless for earthing.

Gas pipes were usually the same, and sometimes got used for the same
purpose - but there were enough disasters to provoke legislation.

 

[Phil Allison]

Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return systems?

** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural, both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to 20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small current to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as usual to a stake near the transformer.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

..... Phil

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in
the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural, both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to 20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as usual to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to Earth for
the return, which makes a lot more sense of course. I guess it doesn't totally
rule out the potential for a problem with supplying enough current to blow a
fuse, but it would take orders of magnitude more Earth resistance than with
240V, which I guess doesn't happen (does it?).

Hmm, looking at the resistance/meter values on pg. 5 of this PDF:
http://www.lightningman.com.au/Earthing.pdf
It seems like it could be a problem, given the lines run for Kilometers.
Resistivity is shown to vary a lot with moisture content, so maybe issues
during very dry conditions on a new line where problems haven't been
explored before?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

I checked that before posting. Saw the diagram. It still didn't sink in.
Oh well...

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncsen0$1cm8$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return
systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural,
both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to
20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small
current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as usual
to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to
Earth for the return,

I'd always assumed that the high voltage distribution was 3-phase.

A star configuration more or less doesn't need an earth - but you can earth
the middle conductor if that's what takes your fancy.

The delta configuration could at a stretch be considered as not having
anywhere to put an earth.

The pylons running past where I live have 3 pairs of arms, which I assume
are 2 lots of the 3 phases. There is an earth wire strung along from the
very tops of the pylons, its certainly not sufficient to handle any
significant fault current - I assumed it was just there as a more inviting
target for any lightning strikes.

More than likely; it only has a "documented" earth from the point where it
comes down from the pylons and gets transformed down for the buried cables.

The thing to note with "Single-Wire Earth Return" is that it's single-wire in
order to save costs in building and maintaining the distribution lines. It's
single phase and uses the Earth as the return to avoid having a second wire.

From what is stated on the Wikipedia page, it seems that the system is mostly
used in rural areas of Australia and New Zealand. In practice it's mainly used
for connecting power to farms. In towns, three phase is very common.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[Ian Field]

"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncsen0$1cm8$1@gioia.aioe.org...

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current -
200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance.
This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow
depends
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground
and
neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference
in
the short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth
stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable
used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return
systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural,
both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to
20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small
current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as usual
to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to
Earth for
the return,

I'd always assumed that the high voltage distribution was 3-phase.

A star configuration more or less doesn't need an earth - but you can earth
the middle conductor if that's what takes your fancy.

The delta configuration could at a stretch be considered as not having
anywhere to put an earth.

The pylons running past where I live have 3 pairs of arms, which I assume
are 2 lots of the 3 phases. There is an earth wire strung along from the
very tops of the pylons, its certainly not sufficient to handle any
significant fault current - I assumed it was just there as a more inviting
target for any lightning strikes.

More than likely; it only has a "documented" earth from the point where it
comes down from the pylons and gets transformed down for the buried cables.

 

[Ian Field]

"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncv2gv$1l8i$1@gioia.aioe.org...

Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncsen0$1cm8$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth
stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable
used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK
in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return
systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural,
both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to
20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small
current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as
usual
to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to
Earth for the return,

I'd always assumed that the high voltage distribution was 3-phase.

A star configuration more or less doesn't need an earth - but you can
earth
the middle conductor if that's what takes your fancy.

The delta configuration could at a stretch be considered as not having
anywhere to put an earth.

The pylons running past where I live have 3 pairs of arms, which I assume
are 2 lots of the 3 phases. There is an earth wire strung along from the
very tops of the pylons, its certainly not sufficient to handle any
significant fault current - I assumed it was just there as a more
inviting
target for any lightning strikes.

More than likely; it only has a "documented" earth from the point where
it
comes down from the pylons and gets transformed down for the buried
cables.

The thing to note with "Single-Wire Earth Return" is that it's single-wire
in
order to save costs in building and maintaining the distribution lines.
It's
single phase and uses the Earth as the return to avoid having a second
wire.

From what is stated on the Wikipedia page, it seems that the system is
mostly
used in rural areas of Australia and New Zealand. In practice it's mainly
used
for connecting power to farms. In towns, three phase is very common.

AFAIK: the high voltage distribution is 3-phase - and the 3 phases cancel
out.

Star configuration has a centre connection that you can earth if you want
to - but it still works if you don't bother.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OSFGy.105338$Na.62911@fx44.am4...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0nq0Frbf9U1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:z7FGy.119571$zA3.89485@fx38.am4...


"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0kgvFqgcmU1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:VgCGy.126812$Mw2.10757@fx35.am4...


"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:



Nope,

** Yes it is.


How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,


** Not odd - you snipped them.


Fact.

** No it isn't.



If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.


** Massive fallacy.


Not the issue at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.



Millions of homes do.

Sweet fuck all do.


** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.



Power and light are separate circuits.

Still power


** Still separate circuits.



Fraid it is correct.

Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.

** No we don't.


Like hell it does.

Wrong, as always.


** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.

My win, as always.

FOAD ASAP.

Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................

Never happened. And when I had moved into the house
I had built on a bare block of land, well before it was legal
to move in, I powered the entire house from the builder's
temporary supply by plugging the entire house in using
a jesus adapter.

I used a long lead from the pole that the builder's temporary
supply was on to the fascia of the house closest to the temp
supply. I had a knot in that lead there which was a melted
enough so I had to cut it off when the council eventually
demanded that I connect the house properly.

Wouldn't have mattered if it did short at the knot, it would
have just blown the fuse in the meter box on the builder's
temporary supply. No fire, no nothing.

You certainly qualify for a Darwin Award

Nope, I know what is perfectly safe, even if you're too stupid to work
that out.

Pride before a fall etc etc

There never was any fall, fuckwit.

> and so on....................

There is no and so on...............................

 

[Rod Speed]

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
newslZGy.1911$jx.491@fx35.am4...

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:93a57ce4-0c59-45ad-9b7f-8933ad8ec5ec@googlegroups.com...
Ian Field wrote:

"Phil Allison"


** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.

Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying
capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.

The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
and
the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.

Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously
almost
none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also
allows
the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held
appliances.


AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The
insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to
blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of
ignited carpets.


** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A
or more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This
will trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow
depends on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the
ground and neutral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no
difference in the short circuit current in both cases.

UK mains distribution is by an armoured cable which effectively takes the
form of co-ax.

Even more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

> Live and neutral enter the property as one and the same,

Even sillier than you usually manage.

there are often earth staps added to any copper plumbing just to make
sure.

Shorting live to either E or N will blow the plugtop fuse and trip the
ELCB. The problem with cables hidden under carpet is the insulation gets
crushed when people keep walking on it. Getting a proper short is getting
lucky, all the dust and crap that falls through the carpet weave
accumulates around hidden cables and provides the possibility of
tracking/arcing between conductors with damaged insulation.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2016-03-23, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncv2gv$1l8i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncsen0$1cm8$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth
stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable
used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK
in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return
systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural,
both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to
20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small
current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as
usual
to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to
Earth for the return,

I'd always assumed that the high voltage distribution was 3-phase.

A star configuration more or less doesn't need an earth - but you can
earth
the middle conductor if that's what takes your fancy.

The delta configuration could at a stretch be considered as not having
anywhere to put an earth.

The pylons running past where I live have 3 pairs of arms, which I assume
are 2 lots of the 3 phases. There is an earth wire strung along from the
very tops of the pylons, its certainly not sufficient to handle any
significant fault current - I assumed it was just there as a more
inviting
target for any lightning strikes.

More than likely; it only has a "documented" earth from the point where
it
comes down from the pylons and gets transformed down for the buried
cables.

The thing to note with "Single-Wire Earth Return" is that it's single-wire
in
order to save costs in building and maintaining the distribution lines.
It's
single phase and uses the Earth as the return to avoid having a second
wire.

From what is stated on the Wikipedia page, it seems that the system is
mostly
used in rural areas of Australia and New Zealand. In practice it's mainly
used
for connecting power to farms. In towns, three phase is very common.

AFAIK: the high voltage distribution is 3-phase

yeah, except where it's DC.


--
\_(ツ)_

 

[John G]

It happens that Jasen Betts formulated :

On 2016-03-23, Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncv2gv$1l8i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Computer Nerd Kev" <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote in message
news:ncsen0$1cm8$1@gioia.aioe.org...
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Phil Allison

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth
stake
or plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable
used
- reducing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply
fuse. I understand that this method was commonly the case in the UK
in
the past ( pre 1960) and may still used be in some installations.

Would this not be a potential problem with Single Wire Earth Return
systems?


** Not normally.

With that there is a resistance for both the Ground and the Nutural,
both of
which have to use the Earth as the return.

** Not true.

The single conducting wire is not carrying 240VAC, but more like 10 to
20kV.

Each user has a hefty isolation transformer that passes only a small
current
to ground while providing 240VAC at high current to the user.

The user's earth and neutral conductors are linked and grounded as
usual
to
a stake near the transformer.

Yes, of course. I forgot it is the High Voltage side that connects to
Earth for the return,

I'd always assumed that the high voltage distribution was 3-phase.

A star configuration more or less doesn't need an earth - but you can
earth
the middle conductor if that's what takes your fancy.

The delta configuration could at a stretch be considered as not having
anywhere to put an earth.

The pylons running past where I live have 3 pairs of arms, which I assume
are 2 lots of the 3 phases. There is an earth wire strung along from the
very tops of the pylons, its certainly not sufficient to handle any
significant fault current - I assumed it was just there as a more
inviting
target for any lightning strikes.

More than likely; it only has a "documented" earth from the point where
it
comes down from the pylons and gets transformed down for the buried
cables.

The thing to note with "Single-Wire Earth Return" is that it's single-wire
in
order to save costs in building and maintaining the distribution lines.
It's
single phase and uses the Earth as the return to avoid having a second
wire.

From what is stated on the Wikipedia page, it seems that the system is
mostly
used in rural areas of Australia and New Zealand. In practice it's mainly
used
for connecting power to farms. In towns, three phase is very common.

AFAIK: the high voltage distribution is 3-phase

yeah, except where it's DC.

SWER means SINGLE WIRE EARTH RETURN.
That is SINGLE WIRE EARTH RETURN. B-)
No three phase and no DC.

The only place DC is used is in very specialist applications like the
currently broke Victoria to Tasmania Undersea cable and some others
around the world that link networks.

All normal Generator to city distribution is 3 wire DELTA and the last
leg to the consumer is 4 wire STAR generaly earthed neautral.

--
John G Sydney.

 

[Ian Field]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dljrodFoaimU1@mid.individual.net...

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OSFGy.105338$Na.62911@fx44.am4...


"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0nq0Frbf9U1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:z7FGy.119571$zA3.89485@fx38.am4...


"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dl0kgvFqgcmU1@mid.individual.net...


"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:VgCGy.126812$Mw2.10757@fx35.am4...


"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:



Nope,

** Yes it is.


How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,


** Not odd - you snipped them.


Fact.

** No it isn't.



If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.


** Massive fallacy.


Not the issue at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.



Millions of homes do.

Sweet fuck all do.


** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.



Power and light are separate circuits.

Still power


** Still separate circuits.



Fraid it is correct.

Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.

** No we don't.


Like hell it does.

Wrong, as always.


** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.

My win, as always.

FOAD ASAP.

Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................

Never happened. And when I had moved into the house
I had built on a bare block of land, well before it was legal
to move in, I powered the entire house from the builder's
temporary supply by plugging the entire house in using
a jesus adapter.

I used a long lead from the pole that the builder's temporary
supply was on to the fascia of the house closest to the temp
supply. I had a knot in that lead there which was a melted
enough so I had to cut it off when the council eventually
demanded that I connect the house properly.

Wouldn't have mattered if it did short at the knot, it would
have just blown the fuse in the meter box on the builder's
temporary supply. No fire, no nothing.

You certainly qualify for a Darwin Award

Nope, I know what is perfectly safe, even if you're too stupid to work
that out.

Pride before a fall etc etc

There never was any fall, fuckwit.

Yet.................................