F
F Murtz
Guest
Ian Field wrote:
Doubt we have worse accident stats.
Don't need them.
Doubt we have worse accident stats.
Navigation
Install the app
How to install the app on iOS
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
More options
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
T
Trevor Wilson
Guest
On 10/03/2016 8:56 AM, Ian Field wrote:
**Nope. Except for Queensland, Australian wiring rules and licensing is
pretty decent. Plug fuses aren't required.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
bruce56@topmail.co.nz> wrote in message
news:fa08a388-f594-43f9-95ea-ca58918b4e0d@googlegroups.com...
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone up
in shower of sparks.
Don't you lot have fuses in the plugs?!!!
**Nope. Except for Queensland, Australian wiring rules and licensing is
pretty decent. Plug fuses aren't required.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
T
Trevor Wilson
Guest
On 10/03/2016 1:26 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
**Things may have changed in Qld. Certainly, up 'till a few years back,
they were very lax with their rules and regs. A mate's son was
electrocuted up there a couple of decades back, due to dodgy wiring
(that is not my sole evidence, of course). As I recall, there were some
stories in EA or Silicon Chip about the situation.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Trevor Wilson wrote:
Don't you lot have fuses in the plugs?!!!
**Nope. Except for Queensland, Australian wiring rules and
licensing is pretty decent. Plug fuses aren't required.
** The wiring rules are national, what's your beef with Qld?
They have much better regs regarding the compulsory fitting of ELCBs
- it must be done whenever a property changes owner. So by now,
nearly all homes have them fitted - such is not the case elsewhere.
**Things may have changed in Qld. Certainly, up 'till a few years back,
they were very lax with their rules and regs. A mate's son was
electrocuted up there a couple of decades back, due to dodgy wiring
(that is not my sole evidence, of course). As I recall, there were some
stories in EA or Silicon Chip about the situation.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
K
keithr
Guest
On 10/03/2016 12:45 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
owned in NSW. It is quite a recent build though (about 7 years old)
Electrically my Qld house seems little different to the ones that I haveOn 10/03/2016 1:26 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
Don't you lot have fuses in the plugs?!!!
**Nope. Except for Queensland, Australian wiring rules and
licensing is pretty decent. Plug fuses aren't required.
** The wiring rules are national, what's your beef with Qld?
They have much better regs regarding the compulsory fitting of ELCBs
- it must be done whenever a property changes owner. So by now,
nearly all homes have them fitted - such is not the case elsewhere.
**Things may have changed in Qld. Certainly, up 'till a few years back,
they were very lax with their rules and regs. A mate's son was
electrocuted up there a couple of decades back, due to dodgy wiring
(that is not my sole evidence, of course). As I recall, there were some
stories in EA or Silicon Chip about the situation.
owned in NSW. It is quite a recent build though (about 7 years old)
Guest
On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 9:11:01 AM UTC+8, Sylvia Else wrote:
I was on a rigsite years ago, and one of the Landcruisers blew a fuse
(the glass type). Bloke got the foil out of his cigarette pack and wrapped
the fuse. Well, smoke followed and the ute was out of action for a week
until new wiring loom was flown in.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
I was on a rigsite years ago, and one of the Landcruisers blew a fuse
(the glass type). Bloke got the foil out of his cigarette pack and wrapped
the fuse. Well, smoke followed and the ute was out of action for a week
until new wiring loom was flown in.
F
F Murtz
Guest
Sylvia Else wrote:
pipe welds at a refinery , and the welders not telling me about the
glowing wedge hoping it would cause something would go wrong and get
them an extra shift.
Or mistakenly using nichrome for fuse wire once when stress relievingOn 9/03/2016 12:06 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring. That seems a sensible
idea, but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other
places that use the UK style plug).
* The UK commonly uses a "ring mains" system with a 32A fuse or
breaker in each circuit. Appliance cables are protected by the fuse
inside the plug which has massive conductors. This allows the use of
some very thin appliance cables ( rated down to 2 or at 3 amps )that
would not be allowed elsewhere.
Over-fusing the plug is a fire hazard in the UK that we do not have.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
But at least it provides extra protection to people who aren't idiots.
Sylvia.
pipe welds at a refinery , and the welders not telling me about the
glowing wedge hoping it would cause something would go wrong and get
them an extra shift.
S
Sylvia Else
Guest
On 13/03/2016 11:16 AM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
It's nice when stupidity bites the culprit so immediately and effectively.
Sadly, it's often other people who pay the price.
Sylvia.
On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 9:11:01 AM UTC+8, Sylvia Else wrote:
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
I was on a rigsite years ago, and one of the Landcruisers blew a fuse
(the glass type). Bloke got the foil out of his cigarette pack and wrapped
the fuse. Well, smoke followed and the ute was out of action for a week
until new wiring loom was flown in.
It's nice when stupidity bites the culprit so immediately and effectively.
Sadly, it's often other people who pay the price.
Sylvia.
I
Ian Field
Guest
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dkphsaFvbtU1@mid.individual.net...
When I was in the servicing trade, the real hated job was anything with
random fuse blowing.
Its not a method I'd use - but if someone had previously, the job was a lot
more work but a predictable end result after replacing all the parts that
were damaged.
news:dkphsaFvbtU1@mid.individual.net...
On 13/03/2016 11:16 AM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 9:11:01 AM UTC+8, Sylvia Else wrote:
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
I was on a rigsite years ago, and one of the Landcruisers blew a fuse
(the glass type). Bloke got the foil out of his cigarette pack and
wrapped
the fuse. Well, smoke followed and the ute was out of action for a week
until new wiring loom was flown in.
It's nice when stupidity bites the culprit so immediately and effectively.
Sadly, it's often other people who pay the price.
When I was in the servicing trade, the real hated job was anything with
random fuse blowing.
Its not a method I'd use - but if someone had previously, the job was a lot
more work but a predictable end result after replacing all the parts that
were damaged.
R
Rod Speed
Guest
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
> That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
Very few in fact, not even the ex colonys like HongKong.
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is 10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
> That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other places that
use the UK style plug).
Very few in fact, not even the ex colonys like HongKong.
R
Rod Speed
Guest
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk9bh3Fbpv9U1@mid.individual.net...
It only protects the lead and that isnt usually where a fire happens.
news:dk9bh3Fbpv9U1@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 12:06 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring. That seems a sensible
idea, but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other
places that use the UK style plug).
* The UK commonly uses a "ring mains" system with a 32A fuse or breaker
in each circuit. Appliance cables are protected by the fuse inside the
plug which has massive conductors. This allows the use of some very thin
appliance cables ( rated down to 2 or at 3 amps )that would not be
allowed elsewhere.
Over-fusing the plug is a fire hazard in the UK that we do not have.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
But at least it provides extra protection to people who aren't idiots.
It only protects the lead and that isnt usually where a fire happens.
I
Ian Field
Guest
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn94Fig5qU1@mid.individual.net...
Last time I had a coffee maker blow; as well as popping the breaker, it blew
every fuse back to the board.
Normally I'd have just binned it, but I had another coffee maker that was
identical in every way except requiring paper filters.
After the element transplant, it was no surprise that the fuse in the plug
was blown, but I had to find and replace a couple more before I had power at
the outlet.
news:dkrn94Fig5qU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk9bh3Fbpv9U1@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 12:06 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring. That seems a sensible
idea, but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other
places that use the UK style plug).
* The UK commonly uses a "ring mains" system with a 32A fuse or
breaker in each circuit. Appliance cables are protected by the fuse
inside the plug which has massive conductors. This allows the use of
some very thin appliance cables ( rated down to 2 or at 3 amps )that
would not be allowed elsewhere.
Over-fusing the plug is a fire hazard in the UK that we do not have.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
But at least it provides extra protection to people who aren't idiots.
It only protects the lead and that isnt usually where a fire happens.
Last time I had a coffee maker blow; as well as popping the breaker, it blew
every fuse back to the board.
Normally I'd have just binned it, but I had another coffee maker that was
identical in every way except requiring paper filters.
After the element transplant, it was no surprise that the fuse in the plug
was blown, but I had to find and replace a couple more before I had power at
the outlet.
I
Ian Field
Guest
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse recess
is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug out of
the socket.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous loads
like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining about that
for some years ago.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that
had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is 10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring to
a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse recess
is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug out of
the socket.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous loads
like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining about that
for some years ago.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
R
Rod Speed
Guest
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote
There is no 'every fuse to the board'.
That isnt possible here, there are no fuses in the plug here.
Must be one hell of a shambles of an electrical
system to have multiple fuses involved in the
chain to that outlet.
And that is all a completely separate matter to the
purpose for the fuse in the plug in the british system.
No one ever said that the fuse in the plug only ever
blows when the lead has a problem.
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote
Phil Allison wrote
Sylvia Else wrote
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring. That seems a sensible
idea, but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other
places that use the UK style plug).
* The UK commonly uses a "ring mains" system with a 32A fuse or
breaker in each circuit. Appliance cables are protected by the fuse
inside the plug which has massive conductors. This allows the use of
some very thin appliance cables ( rated down to 2 or at 3 amps )that
would not be allowed elsewhere.
Over-fusing the plug is a fire hazard in the UK that we do not have.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
But at least it provides extra protection to people who aren't idiots.
It only protects the lead and that isnt usually where a fire happens.
Last time I had a coffee maker blow; as well as popping
the breaker, it blew every fuse back to the board.
There is no 'every fuse to the board'.
Normally I'd have just binned it, but I had another coffee maker
that was identical in every way except requiring paper filters.
After the element transplant, it was no
surprise that the fuse in the plug was blown,
That isnt possible here, there are no fuses in the plug here.
but I had to find and replace a couple
more before I had power at the outlet.
Must be one hell of a shambles of an electrical
system to have multiple fuses involved in the
chain to that outlet.
And that is all a completely separate matter to the
purpose for the fuse in the plug in the british system.
No one ever said that the fuse in the plug only ever
blows when the lead has a problem.
R
Rod Speed
Guest
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that
had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is 10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring to
a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug
out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining about
that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I
Ian Field
Guest
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsihF4v4nU1@mid.individual.net...
Tell that to the wall socket that had no power till I found and replaced
them.
news:dktsihF4v4nU1@mid.individual.net...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote
Phil Allison wrote
Sylvia Else wrote
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring. That seems a sensible
idea, but I've not seen it elsewhere (I think there are a few other
places that use the UK style plug).
* The UK commonly uses a "ring mains" system with a 32A fuse or
breaker in each circuit. Appliance cables are protected by the fuse
inside the plug which has massive conductors. This allows the use of
some very thin appliance cables ( rated down to 2 or at 3 amps )that
would not be allowed elsewhere.
Over-fusing the plug is a fire hazard in the UK that we do not have.
Or indeed, wrapping the failed fuse with metal foil.
But at least it provides extra protection to people who aren't idiots.
It only protects the lead and that isnt usually where a fire happens.
Last time I had a coffee maker blow; as well as popping the breaker, it
blew every fuse back to the board.
There is no 'every fuse to the board'.
Tell that to the wall socket that had no power till I found and replaced
them.
I
Ian Field
Guest
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out why
a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket
in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that
had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone
up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is 10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can
not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring
to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug
out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining
about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out why
a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
P
Phil Allison
Guest
John G wrote:
** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously almost none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also allows the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.
The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open before the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad appliance does not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder with the tricky problem of discovering which one is to blame. Spare fuses are readily available.
Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
The one flaw is that users can over fuse a plug - using 13A type where a 3A should be.
..... Phil
The fuses are fast acting HRC types which
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously almost none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also allows the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.
The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open before the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad appliance does not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder with the tricky problem of discovering which one is to blame. Spare fuses are readily available.
Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
The one flaw is that users can over fuse a plug - using 13A type where a 3A should be.
..... Phil
The fuses are fast acting HRC types which
R
Rod Speed
Guest
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the work.
And I've been doing that stuff since before you were even born thanks.
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket
in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that
had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone
up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can
not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring
to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load
of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the
plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining
about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed
and loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out
why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the work.
And I've been doing that stuff since before you were even born thanks.
J
John G
Guest
Ian Field formulated on Thursday :
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
--
John G Sydney.
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now that
had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is 10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring to
a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnât need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug
out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining about
that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out why
a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
--
John G Sydney.
R
Rod Speed
Guest
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
Nope, they didn't invent the ring main.
> and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort. In spades with fused plug tops.
And uses less cable than having chains of outlets back to the fuse/breaker
box.
> A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
> The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
> and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
The fuse isnt there for that. Its there because the ring main fuse has
to be high when there is just one ring main for the entire house.
> The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
> Spare fuses are readily available.
Beakers are much more practical.
> Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
Fuck all did in fact and no one else bothers to do it like that.
The other flaw is that a fused plug top can never be
as reliable as a modern fully moulded unfused cable.
John G wrote
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were
in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the
UK only standardised their system in the 1950s. Why
did they not follow an existing workable system? B-)
The UK system is very clever
Nope, they didn't invent the ring main.
> and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort. In spades with fused plug tops.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles
the current carrying capacity of the same cable.
And uses less cable than having chains of outlets back to the fuse/breaker
box.
> A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
> The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
> and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
Having fused plugs means all appliances
have fuses where previously almost none did.
The fuse isnt there for that. Its there because the ring main fuse has
to be high when there is just one ring main for the entire house.
> The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
plus also allows the use of light gauge cables
suited to small and hand held appliances.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open
before the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad
appliance does not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder
with the tricky problem of discovering which one is to blame.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
> Spare fuses are readily available.
Beakers are much more practical.
> Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
Fuck all did in fact and no one else bothers to do it like that.
The one flaw is that users can over fuse a
plug - using 13A type where a 3A should be.
The other flaw is that a fused plug top can never be
as reliable as a modern fully moulded unfused cable.