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Ian Field formulated on Thursday :
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket
in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now
that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone
up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a
circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can
not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring
to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load
of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should
be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnât need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the
plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining
about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse
cartridge into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up
splayed and loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out
why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only standardised
their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an existing workable
system? B-)
The UK system is very clever
Nope,
and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort.
A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
Having fused plugs means all appliances
have fuses where previously almost none did.
The fuse isnt there for that.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
plus also allows the use of light gauge cables
suited to small and hand held appliances.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open
before the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad
appliance does not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder
with the tricky problem of discovering which one is to blame.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
Fuck all did in fact
Rod Speed wrote
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
The UK system is very clever
Nope,
Yes it is.
and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort.
Never claimed it alone did.
A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
It works fine.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
Nope - it was part of the 1947 spec.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
It's still a afer way.
Having fused plugs means all appliances
have fuses where previously almost none did.
The fuse isnt there for that.
But it does that.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
It's a common enough problem
plus also allows the use of light gauge cables
suited to small and hand held appliances.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
But not with 3 any core cables.
The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open
before the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad
appliance does not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder
with the tricky problem of discovering which one is to blame.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
Like hell it is.
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
And blow the circuit fuse or breaker over and over along the way.
Plenty of good thinking went into the system.
Fuck all did in fact
Shame the mad Robot cannot tell good from bad thinking.
The UK system is very clever
Nope,
Yes it is.
Nope.
It works fine.
Bullshit it does.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
Nope - it was part of the 1947 spec.
It wasn't enforced then.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
It's still a safer way.
Bullshit it is.
Its actually more likely that fingers will be under the
plug.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
It's a common enough problem
Pigs arse it is.
that shuts off all the power here.
Pig arse it does. No one has just one power circuit now
and it didn't shut off all power even when they did have
just one power circuit.
plus also allows the use of light gauge cables
suited to small and hand held appliances.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
But not with 3 any core cables.
Wrong, as always.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
Like hell it is.
Corse it is because something that takes out the fuse
or breaker for the entire power circuit will produce
something quite noticeable in the appliance that
has failed
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
And blow the circuit fuse or breaker over and over along the way.
Fuck all devices blow with a permanent short like that.
How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,
If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.
Not the issue at all.
Even sillier than you usually manage.
Millions of homes do.
Sweet fuck all do.
Power and light are separate circuits.
Still power
Fraid it is correct.
Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.
Like hell it does.
Wrong, as always.
Rod Speed wrote
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
The UK system is very clever
Nope,
Yes it is.
Nope.
Yes it is.
You didn't come up with even single issue that had previously been a
worry.
Yes I did.
It works fine.
Bullshit it does.
Fraid it does.
Bullshit it does.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
Nope - it was part of the 1947 spec.
It wasn't enforced then.
Typical Robot double talk bullshit.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
It's still a safer way.
Bullshit it is.
Yes it is.
Its actually more likely that fingers will be under the plug.
Not the issue at all.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
It's a common enough problem
Pigs arse it is.
that shuts off all the power here.
Pig arse it does. No one has just one power circuit now
Millions of homes do.
and it didn't shut off all power even when
they did have just one power circuit.
Power and light are separate circuits.
plus also allows the use of light gauge cables
suited to small and hand held appliances.
We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.
But not with 3 any core cables.
Wrong, as always.
Fraid it is correct.
Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
Like hell it is.
Corse it is because something that takes out the fuse
or breaker for the entire power circuit will produce
something quite noticeable in the appliance that
has failed
Like hell it does.
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.
And blow the circuit fuse or breaker over and over along the way.
Fuck all devices blow with a permanent short like that.
It's common with faults that that go to safety earth.
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power socket
in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now
that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have gone
up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a
circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can
not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the wiring
to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load
of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should
be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but can
easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the
plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining
about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse
cartridge into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up
splayed and loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out
why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the
work.
John G wrote:
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and
the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously almost
none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also allows
the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
John G wrote
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were
in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the
UK only standardised their system in the 1950s. Why
did they not follow an existing workable system? B-)
The UK system is very clever
Nope, they didn't invent the ring main.
and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort. In spades with fused plug tops.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles
the current carrying capacity of the same cable.
And uses less cable than having chains of outlets back to the fuse/breaker
box.
A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
Having fused plugs means all appliances
have fuses where previously almost none did.
The fuse isnt there for that. Its there because the ring main fuse has
to be high when there is just one ring main for the entire house.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
Rod Speed wrote:
The UK system is very clever
Nope,
Yes it is.
Nope.
** Yes it is.
You didn't come up with even single issue that had previously been a
worry.
** Yes I did.
It works fine.
Bullshit it does.
** Fraid it does.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
Nope - it was part of the 1947 spec.
It wasn't enforced then.
** Typical Robot double talk bullshit.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
It's still a safer way.
Bullshit it is.
** Yes it is.
Its actually more likely that fingers will be under the
plug.
** Not the issue at all.
Rod Speed e wrote:
Nope,
** Yes it is.
How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,
** Not odd - you snipped them.
Fact.
** No it isn't.
If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.
** Massive fallacy.
Not the issue at all.
Even sillier than you usually manage.
** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.
Millions of homes do.
Sweet fuck all do.
** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.
Power and light are separate circuits.
Still power
** Still separate circuits.
Fraid it is correct.
Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.
** No we don't.
Like hell it does.
Wrong, as always.
** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.
My win, as always.
FOAD ASAP.
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkue30F97e1U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old
insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power
socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now
that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have
gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed
wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a
circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you
can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the
wiring to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its
pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max
load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker
should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in
which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens
long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a
fuse. That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an
appliance), but can easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the
fuse recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it
with the plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy
continuous loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone
complaining about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse
cartridge into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips
ending up splayed and loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find
out why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the
work.
You can have the Abbo's round for a barbie when it burns to the ground.
Ian Field wrote:
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkue30F97e1U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old
insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power
socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now
that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have
gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed
wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a
circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you
can not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the
wiring to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its
pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max
load of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker
should be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in
which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens
long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a
fuse. That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an
appliance), but can easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the
fuse recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it
with the plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy
continuous loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone
complaining about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse
cartridge into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips
ending up splayed and loose - but you can't blame the design for
that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find
out why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the
work.
You can have the Abbo's round for a barbie when it burns to the ground.
He does not live in the UK where people hide their wiring under the
carpet.
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkue30F97e1U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:J2kGy.81543$zA3.69756@fx38.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dktsobF50l8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4HhGy.55096$mV7.38820@fx39.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkrn33FiefcU1@mid.individual.net...
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:dk98obFb2k5U2@mid.individual.net...
On 9/03/2016 9:32 AM, Adrian Jansen wrote:
On 8/03/2016 11:37 PM, David wrote:
On 3/8/2016 8:21 PM, bruce56@topmail.co.nz wrote:
One often hears in the news about a house burning due to an
electrical
fault, with no further details, like whether it was old
insulation
perishing or a DIY bodge.
I bought a house in which somebody installed an extra power
socket in
the kitchen, spliced into the nearby electric stove feed. Now
that had
a 40 A breaker. So if the toaster had a short, it could have
gone up
in shower of sparks.
Note that the Circuit Breaker is there to protect the fixed
wiring,
*not* the appliance connected to the socket outlet. Indeed
AS/NZS3000
does indeed permit the connection of 10A socket outlets to a
circuit
protected by a 40A circuit breaker, provided that the wiring is
10mm2
(See table C8).
Note that in most cases this would be very impractical, as you can
not
normally get 10mm2 cable into a 10A socket outlet.
However 25A and even 32A breakers can be used to protect the
wiring to a
10A socket outlet, providing the wire size and voltage drop are
considered.
That might be what the rules say, but it seems to me that its
pretty
illogical to have a socket and wiring which is rated for a max load
of
10 amps 'protected' by a 32 amp breaker. Surely the breaker should
be
the weakest link in the chain.
That said, by far the most likely fault is a short circuit, in
which
case the current goes sky-high, and hopefully the breaker opens
long
before the wiring blows up.
Similar arguments apply to any external appliance.
In the UK, where I used to live, the appliance plugs contain a fuse.
That's 13A by default (the maximum current for an appliance), but
can easily be changed to suit lesser rated wiring.
That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.
That seems a sensible idea,
No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesnt need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.
We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse
recess is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the
plug out of the socket.
Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.
In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous
loads like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining
about that for some years ago.
But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.
Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse
cartridge into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending
up splayed and loose - but you can't blame the design for that.
Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out
why a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.
More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the
work.
You can have the Abbo's round for a barbie when it burns to the ground.
"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7aa603ca-ddb2-4b93-a6e9-702b20e3b17e@googlegroups.com...
John G wrote:
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and
the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously
almost none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also
allows the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held
appliances.
AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to blow the then panel fuse.
- but its still possible to create an ignition point before the fuse
fails. Its not only important to have that fuse, but to use the lowest
rating that will work reliably with the supplied appliance.
The situation has massively improved since compulsory ELCB panels - but
fires still happen.
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dkupfcFbl3qU1@mid.individual.net...
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
John G wrote
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were
in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the
UK only standardised their system in the 1950s. Why
did they not follow an existing workable system? B-)
The UK system is very clever
Nope, they didn't invent the ring main.
and solved a number of issues that had previously been a worry.
The ring main does nothing of the sort. In spades with fused plug tops.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles
the current carrying capacity of the same cable.
And uses less cable than having chains of outlets back to the
fuse/breaker box.
A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circuit.
That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the
kitchen.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
That happened much later.
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.
Having fused plugs means all appliances
have fuses where previously almost none did.
The fuse isnt there for that. Its there because the ring main fuse has
to be high when there is just one ring main for the entire house.
The fuse protects against shorts in the cable
Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.
.........................unless you're the kind of fuckwit that hides the
flex under carpets.
"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:
Nope,
** Yes it is.
How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,
** Not odd - you snipped them.
Fact.
** No it isn't.
If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.
** Massive fallacy.
Not the issue at all.
Even sillier than you usually manage.
** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.
Millions of homes do.
Sweet fuck all do.
** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.
Power and light are separate circuits.
Still power
** Still separate circuits.
Fraid it is correct.
Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.
** No we don't.
Like hell it does.
Wrong, as always.
** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.
My win, as always.
FOAD ASAP.
Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:81CGy.80184$4l5.4368@fx37.am4...
"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7aa603ca-ddb2-4b93-a6e9-702b20e3b17e@googlegroups.com...
John G wrote:
Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an
existing workable system? B-)
** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had
previously been a worry.
Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity
of the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power
circuit.
The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins
and the earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.
Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously
almost none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also
allows the use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held
appliances.
AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets.
The insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault
current to blow the then panel fuse.
With a ring main with a 36A fuse, possibly. But that is so rare
that it makes no sense to be mandating that all plugs must
have an internal fuse when that makes them MUCH less reliable.
And that is what the entire rest of the world has decided.
A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of ignited carpets.
And now with far fewer rugs used, it just isnt a problem anymore.
The plug top fuse is all about preventing that
How odd that no one else needed to do that.
- but its still possible to create an ignition point before the fuse
fails. Its not only important to have that fuse, but to use the lowest
rating that will work reliably with the supplied appliance.
The entire rest of the world knows otherwise.
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:VgCGy.126812$Mw2.10757@fx35.am4...
"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:231ebbf7-77b4-4a82-b12c-0ee13d8c979c@googlegroups.com...
Rod Speed e wrote:
Nope,
** Yes it is.
How odd that not one is visible in the quoting,
** Not odd - you snipped them.
Fact.
** No it isn't.
If it was, we'd have a higher rate of electrocutions.
** Massive fallacy.
Not the issue at all.
Even sillier than you usually manage.
** The same repetitious shit that ASD fucked morons can only manage.
Millions of homes do.
Sweet fuck all do.
** Nope - there are millions you pathetic, ASD fucked liar.
Power and light are separate circuits.
Still power
** Still separate circuits.
Fraid it is correct.
Like hell it is. We have plenty of light 3
core cables without any fused plug tops.
** No we don't.
Like hell it does.
Wrong, as always.
** Shame you cannot post any case - you lying POS.
My win, as always.
FOAD ASAP.
Just watch out for him on the Darwin Awards
site.....................................
Never happened. And when I had moved into the house
I had built on a bare block of land, well before it was legal
to move in, I powered the entire house from the builder's
temporary supply by plugging the entire house in using
a jesus adapter.
I used a long lead from the pole that the builder's temporary
supply was on to the fascia of the house closest to the temp
supply. I had a knot in that lead there which was a melted
enough so I had to cut it off when the council eventually
demanded that I connect the house properly.
Wouldn't have mattered if it did short at the knot, it would
have just blown the fuse in the meter box on the builder's
temporary supply. No fire, no nothing.