Need some help, what is percentage US voltages on 115V, 208V

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Rick C wrote:

Do residential water heaters actually run on three phase?

Some do, some don't. You can buy anything you like.
I think there are 3 internal heaters inside, that is the star connection
of heating elements. That way you can have a universal 230V heating
element, good for either application.

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power? With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

With the red IEC 309 shown in this thread, you get 11 kW.

>We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove). It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances. What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase power?

In my country house, the electric sauna is 7.5 kW three phase, the
electric stove is three phase 2-3 kW. Even in my top floor city
apartment, the stove is three phase.

 

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 21:00:43 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

When we were students, we also had a ham radio linear amplifier
that ran on 3 phase. 2 QB5/1750 tubes, 5.5KV @ 1A+.
That was not exactly legal, but fun. Statute-barred a long time.

At those voltages it is hard to get any big storage capacitors, so
using a 6 pulse, three phase rectifier and the anode voltage is smooth
enough (4 % ripple).

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 31.10.19 um 20:04 schrieb Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:09:43 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

not, the big red ones are for big three phase power tools and such, it is
rated for 3*32A

What's the calculation for wattage on three phase?

if properly balanced:

3 * 32 * 230 for star
3 * 32 * 400 for triangle

My stove runs on 2 phases and can deliver 7 KW for the
2 front plates together. It's better not to leave the
kitchen when using that much, and to have the onions etc
peeled when starting. (There are bigger ones, but I'm single.)

When we were students, we also had a ham radio linear amplifier
that ran on 3 phase. 2 QB5/1750 tubes, 5.5KV @ 1A+.
That was not exactly legal, but fun. Statute-barred a long time.


cheers, Gerhard

 

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

and even for a welder or variable frequency drive three phase is an
advantage because rectifying to DC is easier

Even with a simple six pulse rectifier, the ripple is only 4.2 %
without any smoothing capacitors .

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 3:19:15 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Rick C wrote:

Do residential water heaters actually run on three phase?

Some do, some don't. You can buy anything you like.
I think there are 3 internal heaters inside, that is the star connection
of heating elements. That way you can have a universal 230V heating
element, good for either application.

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power? With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

With the red IEC 309 shown in this thread, you get 11 kW.

We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove). It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances. What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase power?

In my country house, the electric sauna is 7.5 kW three phase, the
electric stove is three phase 2-3 kW. Even in my top floor city
apartment, the stove is three phase.

For a sauna, that means three elements, one on each phase. Likely this is done to help keep the 3 phase balanced.

The stove almost certainly uses separate phases for the different heating elements. So again, the three phase connection is being done to keep the load more balanced.

So the three phase appliances are because the three phase is installed, not that the three phase is needed for any particular reason? Certainly a 7 kW heater does not require being on 3 phase circuits and cooking appliances work fine on 240 volts.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 3:37:03 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 09:24:47 UTC-7, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

No, the UK remained at 240v - the asymmetric EU standard of 230+10%/-6% allows both 220v and 240v to be within the standard with no physical change..

That makes more sense than
what we do here

I like yours, it is inherently much safer. But it is too late to change..

The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.


I like the UK ones, robust, don't get hot even at 13A, allow 3kW from an outlet. The fuse within the plug can be appropriate for the load.

The US ones are convenient because they are small but they are very limiting for high-power portable devices such as kitchen appliances.

No John, the British are small compared to that. These are of the size
of a Pepsi can, more or less. They are super-robust.

Do residences get all three phases?

Yes. Newer flats as well.

Electric vehicles sold in the EU (such as Rick's Tesla Model X) have a 3-phase input that allows up to 43kW input power in some vehicles. In the case of the Tesla there are essentially 3 separate chargers in the car.
Best regards, Piotr

I can't say you are wrong about the EU Teslas charging from the 3 phase input at 43 kW, but that would be pretty amazing if they did. The chargers you are talking about handle 24 amps each, so 17.2 kW total... at least in the US version. My car has three of these chargers, but since my car was made they dropped back to two units each which still gives 48 amps, plenty of power and more than most connections will support.

While I can't say they are using the same charger boards in the EU, it would seem odd for them to do that. Bottom line is I can't find any info on the max charging rate in Teslas from 3 phase power in the EU. The Tesla site doesn't easily provide that info since I'm not in the EU.

Of course, this has nothing to do with other vehicles.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 19.57.07 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, PeterSchneider wrote:
Am 31.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Piotr Wyderski:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

 We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the
house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

  It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

    Best regrds, Piotr


In europe there a continuous-flow water heaters with up to 21 kW. They
heat "just-intime" without any reservoir

That would be 90 amps which we can do in the US with 240 volts. In fact, Tesla home car chargers can be wired up with 100 amp service to drive 80 amp charging to some of the older cars. Mine will only accept 72 amps, so no point in more than 90 amps on a single charger but they can be used in parallel on a single 100 amp circuit. We derate our socketed connections to 80% for continuous loads, not sure exactly why.

The point is we have 240 volt, 100 amp connections for such high current loads. I don't see the need for 3 phase.


so you need 2 wires capable of 100A to get 24kW, we need 3 wires capable of ~30A

Actually, you need four wires. With three phase the neutral is essential for using 240 volt circuits. In the US we only require two conductors for the power and a smaller one for protective earth, the neutral is only required if you need 120 volts. I know in the UK the whole protective earth thing is complicated and allows the use of a system that loses safety if you run an extension cord outside. I don't know what the regulations require in the rest of the EU.

I looked into the US requirements extensively for a car charging port. The Tesla HPWC only requires a pair of heavy gauge wires for the power and a protective earth.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts rather than 240. I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take) rather than 240. Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.

Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 12:32:04 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2019-10-31 04:33, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

Thanks

Klaus


Go with 120V single phase. Residential power here is mostly 2-phase, so
that you can have an electric stove or clothes dryer working on 240V.
Getting 208V requires a 3-phase service, which is common in commercial
installations but not elsewhere.

Round here, requiring three-phase power for a 75 W pump would get you a
bit of a reputation.

So you don't have situations where you have 240V, with no neutral. That is to say you would always have the option to use the line neutral 120V?

Cheers

Klaus

There are roughly 15 different outlet types in use in the USA. Maybe
more! Some are 240 with neutral and ground, some are 240 with ground
but no neutral. I think there is a 120-240 outlet all in one somehow.
It's the Wild West.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:36:10 UTC+1, Piotr Wyderski wrote:

Whoey Louie wrote:

Voltage in just about all of the US has been spec'd at 120V/240V not 115V/230V
for half a century or more.

And what's the allowed range? In Poland it is 230V +6%/-10%, in the EU I
think 230V +/- 10%.

Our products are normally rated +10/-15%, for the EU 230V, US 115V

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 1. november 2019 kl. 00.10.54 UTC+1 skrev klaus.k...@gmail.com:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 12:32:04 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2019-10-31 04:33, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

Thanks

Klaus


Go with 120V single phase. Residential power here is mostly 2-phase, so
that you can have an electric stove or clothes dryer working on 240V.
Getting 208V requires a 3-phase service, which is common in commercial
installations but not elsewhere.

Round here, requiring three-phase power for a 75 W pump would get you a
bit of a reputation.

So you don't have situations where you have 240V, with no neutral. That is to say you would always have the option to use the line neutral 120V?

he's Canadian but, https://youtu.be/kfHB5AoAAbs

 

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 12:32:04 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2019-10-31 04:33, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

Thanks

Klaus


Go with 120V single phase. Residential power here is mostly 2-phase, so
that you can have an electric stove or clothes dryer working on 240V.
Getting 208V requires a 3-phase service, which is common in commercial
installations but not elsewhere.

Round here, requiring three-phase power for a 75 W pump would get you a
bit of a reputation.

So you don't have situations where you have 240V, with no neutral. That is to say you would always have the option to use the line neutral 120V?

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 23.30.02 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 19.57.07 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, PeterSchneider wrote:
Am 31.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Piotr Wyderski:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

 We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the
house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

  It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

    Best regrds, Piotr


In europe there a continuous-flow water heaters with up to 21 kW. They
heat "just-intime" without any reservoir

That would be 90 amps which we can do in the US with 240 volts. In fact, Tesla home car chargers can be wired up with 100 amp service to drive 80 amp charging to some of the older cars. Mine will only accept 72 amps, so no point in more than 90 amps on a single charger but they can be used in parallel on a single 100 amp circuit. We derate our socketed connections to 80% for continuous loads, not sure exactly why.

The point is we have 240 volt, 100 amp connections for such high current loads. I don't see the need for 3 phase.


so you need 2 wires capable of 100A to get 24kW, we need 3 wires capable of ~30A

Actually, you need four wires. With three phase the neutral is essential for using 240 volt circuits.

at those power levels you are probably going to wire it delta not wye

> In the US we only require two conductors for the power and a smaller one for protective earth, the neutral is only required if you need 120 volts.

same with three phase

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:14:19 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 1. november 2019 kl. 01.06.56 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:28:53 PM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:36:10 UTC+1, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Whoey Louie wrote:

Voltage in just about all of the US has been spec'd at 120V/240V not 115V/230V
for half a century or more.

And what's the allowed range? In Poland it is 230V +6%/-10%, in the EU I
think 230V +/- 10%.


Our products are normally rated +10/-15%, for the EU 230V, US 115V

Your products don't determine the spec in the US.


115V +10/-15% looks close enough to spec

https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/energystatus/powerquality/voltage_tolerance.pdf

Lol! What part of "specification" says "close enough"?

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:10:54 PM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 12:32:04 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2019-10-31 04:33, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

Thanks

Klaus


Go with 120V single phase. Residential power here is mostly 2-phase, so
that you can have an electric stove or clothes dryer working on 240V.
Getting 208V requires a 3-phase service, which is common in commercial
installations but not elsewhere.

Round here, requiring three-phase power for a 75 W pump would get you a
bit of a reputation.

So you don't have situations where you have 240V, with no neutral. That is to say you would always have the option to use the line neutral 120V?

I don't understand the question. There are connectors that do not include a neutral. One that I know of includes the neutral, but not the protective earth and is no longer used. Was that a dumb idea! A water heater is hard wired with no connector and has no need for a neutral. Likewise the car charging units.

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 1. november 2019 kl. 01.06.56 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:28:53 PM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:36:10 UTC+1, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Whoey Louie wrote:

Voltage in just about all of the US has been spec'd at 120V/240V not 115V/230V
for half a century or more.

And what's the allowed range? In Poland it is 230V +6%/-10%, in the EU I
think 230V +/- 10%.


Our products are normally rated +10/-15%, for the EU 230V, US 115V

Your products don't determine the spec in the US.

115V +10/-15% looks close enough to spec

https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/energystatus/powerquality/voltage_tolerance.pdf

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much 240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts rather than 240. I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take) rather than 240. Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes. Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store, retirement community parking. These are the ones I recall off the top of my head. I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I don't recall where that would have been.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:28:53 PM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:36:10 UTC+1, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Whoey Louie wrote:

Voltage in just about all of the US has been spec'd at 120V/240V not 115V/230V
for half a century or more.

And what's the allowed range? In Poland it is 230V +6%/-10%, in the EU I
think 230V +/- 10%.


Our products are normally rated +10/-15%, for the EU 230V, US 115V

Your products don't determine the spec in the US.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 1. november 2019 kl. 00.50.47 UTC+1 skrev Steve Wilson:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

he's Canadian but, https://youtu.be/kfHB5AoAAbs

Bad design.

ofcourse and he said so

1. Use a stepdown transformer to drive the 120V dust collector.

when you need several 100W that's gets big and expensive

 

[Steve Wilson]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> he's Canadian but, https://youtu.be/kfHB5AoAAbs

Bad design.

1. Use a stepdown transformer to drive the 120V dust collector.

2. Use a DPDT switch to turn table on and off. This eliminates the 9V battery
and the power lost in the semiconductor switch. Simpler, no need for a heat
sink.