Need some help, what is percentage US voltages on 115V, 208V

[Joerg]

On 2019-11-03 09:13, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 10:15:29 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-11-02 10:59, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 10:55:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C
wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below
75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution
of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard
about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees
phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how
much 240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208
volts rather than 240. I charge my car at level 2
chargers in lots of locations and some 90% of them are
208 volts (give or take) rather than 240. Instead of
getting 7 kW charging rate, I usually see 6 or below
because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes. Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food
store, retirement community parking. These are the ones I
recall off the top of my head. I'm sure I've seen 240 volt
level 2 charging, but I don't recall where that would have
been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones
will only have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V
three-phase is pricey, needs a special transformer and is
typically only used in larger places or ones with a high
electric energy demand.

Not sure what you mean by "small". A "small" hospital?


For example, nursing homes. Smaller facilities up to 12 beds are
usually fed two-phase while the larger ones have a three-phase
feed.

I don't think there is a 12 bed nursing home anywhere around here.
They typically aren't profitable and end up going out of business. I
guess there might be some boutique places.

Maybe the people that run ours are smarter? It's often owners and worker
of Philippine descent. The 11-bed home 2mi north of us that we visit
every two weeks is a place I could really like if I'd need it at old
age. And I am sure it'll be around because it is run well.

The majority are 6-bed though and IMO they are generally better than the
really big ones.

... I suppose a retail food store could be small and the ones
I've been to were small but had 208 volts at the car chargers.


Small retail stores never have car chargers around where I live.

Sorry, I forgot that where you live is the typical for the world.

California is typical. I get around a bit. BTW, it's the same in Nevada,
Oregon, Idaho, and so on. Also, in case it has escaped you, California
is the state where Tesla is located.

I think you don't realize how pervasive 3 phase power is in the
US. Why would it take a special transformer? It's three phase on
the distribution line, three phase on both sides of the
transformer.


What was meant is not the distribution, that is generally
three-phase. It's about the feed into the building. That is
generally tow-phase 120/240V.

Yes, for residences. The majority of businesses of any size receive
3 phase.

Nope.

Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to
240V outlets even though it is often not used by the equipment
that is plugged in. So there are four connections, 120V phase
1, 120V phase 2, neutral, protective ground. What you need to
keep in mind is that such outlets are generally fused at much
more than the usual 15A or 20A. So the cable from the outlet to
the fuse in your pump circuitry must be rated for the highest
expected circuit breaker current rating.

It entirely depends on the connector. Some have a neutral pin,
some don't. Standard 120 volt outlets here have a neutral pin
and a ground, but because our 240 volt line is two hots, the NEMA
6 series of connectors have no neutral, only a protective earth
ground.


AFAIK that only goes for older buildings, in newer ones (as in
"this century") I have never seen 240V receptacles without
neutral.

If you mean 2000, yes, that is most likely true. The rule was
changed by the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the
states to adopt that rule change since it is the states that make the
laws. So about 20 years. But the connectors are still widely in
use. Actually, it is the 10 series that is affected by this. The 6
series have a ground and no neutral. The 10 series has a neutral and
no ground. lol

I don't think no-ground would still fly with the inspectors in California.

[...]

... Here appliances use 120 volts unless there is a compelling
need for higher power than can be found in a typical outlet, 120
volts, 15 amps.


I became sorely aware of that when moving to the US. Neitehr the
printer nor the copier I brought from Europe worked because no
enough juice in a circuit.

There's your problem. We don't have juice in our circuits. We have
electricity. A 240 volt connection is not hard to provide, it's just
not common because we standardized on 120 volts in the home about a
hundred years ago. Did no one tell you about that?

Your crystal ball has fallen off the balcony. You do not know our house.

Now that I started home-brewing it's the same. I have to use two
1kW burners back to back under the brew kettle, plugged into
different circuits. Oh how I wish I could use one of those European
3kW burners.

You could if you just ran a 240 volt line.

It sometimes seems like you go out of your way to make things
difficult.

You tend towards premature conclusions. Running 240V to that place is
not trivial at all in an existing structure with lava rock walls and stuff.

BTW, you do know you can get up to 1440 watts on a 15 amp circuit,
no? You can get up to 1,920 watts on a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit.

Peanuts. In Europe all the circuits were 230V 16A or higher. That's one
of the few things I still miss. The others are bread dumplings and
Leberkaese

... So
you just need a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit, no 240 volt European
heaters required.

You are normally not supposed to have a continuous load near the circuit
breaker limit. Anyhow, how does 120V 20A rival a 3kW burner? When
brewing, heating times matter. A lot.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[DJ Delorie]

phase with each other.

The easiest way to demonstrate that they're not 180 degrees out of phase
is to look at noise on the line - the two hots will have the noise at
the same time but of opposite polarity, not 180 degrees later.

My house has ONE power line running up the driveway (7200 VAC plus
ground) - I have my own 240VAC center tapped transformer for the house.

Two-phase power is used to run stepper motors, with the phases 90
degrees apart. Tesla originally wanted to use this for power
distribution, but it required too many lines - three phase won out
instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:43:34 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:40:50 -0600, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating
magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could
have continued to use the old two phase system.

One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90
degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker
wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it
is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90
degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After
starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase.

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there.
If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference,
would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how
about 180?

Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two
phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it
doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or
split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well
have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N
wires would just be thicker.

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could
not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would
not also have 240V.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:39:50 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 12:13:16 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 10:15:29 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-11-02 10:59, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 10:55:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about
208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase
inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how
much 240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240. I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots
of locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or
take) rather than 240. Instead of getting 7 kW charging
rate, I usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes. Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food
store, retirement community parking. These are the ones I recall
off the top of my head. I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2
charging, but I don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will
only have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase
is pricey, needs a special transformer and is typically only used
in larger places or ones with a high electric energy demand.

Not sure what you mean by "small". A "small" hospital?


For example, nursing homes. Smaller facilities up to 12 beds are usually
fed two-phase while the larger ones have a three-phase feed.

I don't think there is a 12 bed nursing home anywhere around here. They typically aren't profitable and end up going out of business. I guess there might be some boutique places.


... I suppose a
retail food store could be small and the ones I've been to were small
but had 208 volts at the car chargers.


Small retail stores never have car chargers around where I live.

Sorry, I forgot that where you live is the typical for the world.


I think you don't realize how pervasive 3 phase power is in the US.
Why would it take a special transformer? It's three phase on the
distribution line, three phase on both sides of the transformer.


What was meant is not the distribution, that is generally three-phase.
It's about the feed into the building. That is generally tow-phase 120/240V.

Yes, for residences. The majority of businesses of any size receive 3 phase.


Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to 240V
outlets even though it is often not used by the equipment that is
plugged in. So there are four connections, 120V phase 1, 120V phase
2, neutral, protective ground. What you need to keep in mind is
that such outlets are generally fused at much more than the usual
15A or 20A. So the cable from the outlet to the fuse in your pump
circuitry must be rated for the highest expected circuit breaker
current rating.

It entirely depends on the connector. Some have a neutral pin, some
don't. Standard 120 volt outlets here have a neutral pin and a
ground, but because our 240 volt line is two hots, the NEMA 6 series
of connectors have no neutral, only a protective earth ground.


AFAIK that only goes for older buildings, in newer ones (as in "this
century") I have never seen 240V receptacles without neutral.

If you mean 2000, yes, that is most likely true. The rule was changed by the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the states to adopt that rule change since it is the states that make the laws. So about 20 years. But the connectors are still widely in use. Actually, it is the 10 series that is affected by this. The 6 series have a ground and no neutral. The 10 series has a neutral and no ground. lol


That's incorrect. There is no code issue with installing a new circuit
that uses a 240V receptacle without a neutral in the US. Why would there be any
issue? It's widely used for pool pumps as an example. The pump is 240V,
it doesn't need a neutral. You may be confusing that with DRYER receptacles,
which are now required to be 4 wire, ie you can't use the neutral as a ground
for new circuits.

You didn't read what I wrote. I never said what you think I said. I did respond to Joerge's statement incorrectly. I was talking about the code requiring a separate protective earth while he was talking about the lack of a neutral.

I read exactly what you wrote. Joerge said you don't see 240V receptacles
in the US without neutral this century and you said that's correct,
that since 1996 a neutral has been required. That's wrong. You can
still install a new 240V circuit with a receptacle and no neutral.
It's done all the time Pool pumps are an example. Some people like them
on a cord. It would be pretty stupid to have to run a neutral and install
a 4 wire receptacle when the pump doesn't need and can't use a neutral.

What I said was correct though. I even gave examples of NEMA standard connectors that have no neutral.

Sure, but you said that after 1996 they can't be used on new 240V circuits.
That isn't true.



.. These are still in use. It is the 10 series with no protective earth that are deprecated.
>

But that isn't what Joerge said and you affirmed.

And again, since you want to bitch to me about "terminology", if you're
going to be here telling people what the NEC allows or doesn't allow,
a good start would be to use the correct term. It's called an
"equipment grounding conductor', not a protective earth.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 8:54:23 AM UTC-5, John S wrote:

On 11/3/2019 8:26 PM, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 4:40:01 PM UTC-5, John S wrote:
On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

It's not referred to as two phase, but that is what is actually present..
There are two hots that are 180 deg out of phase with each other, which
is what you get from a center tapped transformer. You would model it as
cos(wt), cos(wt+180)

In this thread it has been referred to as two phase. But please see the
link to which I referred that shows two phase as two voltages 90 degrees
apart, not 180 degrees.

That was one implementation of two phases. Just because that was one case,
doesn't mean that if there was a power source with 95 deg separation, there
would not be two phases. Or with 180 deg separation.

Do this: put two appropriately-valued and equal-valued resistors in
series across your single phase outlet (any voltage) and attach your
scope common to the junction of the resistors. Attach your two probes to
the opposite end of the resistors.

You will see two voltages 180 degrees out of phase with each other. So,
have you just created two phase from a single phase source with just a
pair of resistors? I don't think so.

Yes, you have two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each
other. You would model it as cos(wt) and cost(wt +180) or cos(wt) and
opposite polarity, same thing.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:47:39 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 9:26:12 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 4:40:01 PM UTC-5, John S wrote:
On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

It's not referred to as two phase, but that is what is actually present..
There are two hots that are 180 deg out of phase with each other, which
is what you get from a center tapped transformer. You would model it as
cos(wt), cos(wt+180)

We all know that,

I have no idea what anyone here knows or doesn't know, especially from some
of the stupid posts. All I know is that I correctly pointed out that the
split-phase service going into homes isn't called two phase, but there
are two phases there. I'd also note that other posters have referred to
phase one and two. But here you are, yapping away, so if you know that,
what's your point?




but it isn't the correct terminology

It is correct that there really are two phases there, 180 deg out of]
phase with each other. Again, I said, that isn't what it's called
but it's what;s there. I suppose if one pointed out that Kleenex are
really a soft paper product made from trees, you'd have issues with
that too.




just as it isn't factually correct that current in a wire flows from + to -, but we all conventionally talk about it as if it did.

Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to 240V outlets
even though it is often not used by the equipment that is plugged in.

There will be a ground at any code compliant receptacles for over half
a century or more. And rare to find a piece of equipment that doesn't
use a ground, for obvious reasons.

That is not correct. It was in 1996 that the NEC changed their rules about requiring a separate protective earth.

BS. An equipment grounding conductor has been required at all new receptacles
for over half a century. And since you want to yap about "terminology"
that is what it's called, not a "protective earth".




My house built in 1987 has the NEMA 10-30 dryer connector with neutral and no earth. I should look to see if they actually ran an earth wire to the outlet box in which case I can change the connector without running a new wire.

Confused again. It used the neutral as the equipment grounding conductor
because that was permitted prior to a few decades ago. And it;s 99%
that they didn't run an equipment grounding conductor, that was the whole
point to using just 3 wires instead of 4.

Anyone know if it is permissible to connect a protective earth from one cable to another?

No.


If this outlet box has no protective earth, can I simply provide one by other means or does this require a new cable be run? There's a 120 volt outlet with a proper ground right by the 240 volt outlet. Heck, for that matter I could put them both in the same box, right?

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Why do you want to screw around with what is code compliant, safe and
working? You claimed in another post that dryers are no longer sold
that are 3 wire. That was wrong too. They are typically sold without
a cord so you can put on either a 3 wire or 4 wire cord.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

mandag den 4. november 2019 kl. 20.29.19 UTC+1 skrev Whoey Louie:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:43:34 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:40:50 -0600, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating
magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could
have continued to use the old two phase system.




One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90
degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker
wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it
is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90
degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After
starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase.

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there.
If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference,
would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how
about 180?

with two phases you can generate more phases by doing linear combinations
with 180 deg you can't

Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two
phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it
doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or
split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well
have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N
wires would just be thicker.

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could
not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would
not also have 240V.

in essence you have single 240 feed and a center tap

 

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:29:13 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:43:34 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:40:50 -0600, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating
magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could
have continued to use the old two phase system.

That old 90 degree two phase system was really stupid, since it would
have required two pairs for both phases (L1, N1 resp. L2, N2) or a
beefy N1+N2 conductor. The three phase system has just L1, L2 and L3
but no N in delta configuration..

One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90
degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker
wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it
is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90
degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After
starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase.

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there.
If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference,

No problem.

would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how
about 180?

180 degree absolutely not, 179, or 181 very unlikely. If you are going
to use multiple phases, make sure there is an ample phase difference
from 0 or 180 degrees.

Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two
phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it
doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or
split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well
have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N
wires would just be thicker.

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could
not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would
not also have 240V.

If the dryer manufacturers are told that only 120 V at 60 Hz is the
only voltage available, would that be a problem ?

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:11:00 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:47:39 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 9:26:12 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 4:40:01 PM UTC-5, John S wrote:
On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

It's not referred to as two phase, but that is what is actually present.
There are two hots that are 180 deg out of phase with each other, which
is what you get from a center tapped transformer. You would model it as
cos(wt), cos(wt+180)

We all know that,

I have no idea what anyone here knows or doesn't know, especially from some
of the stupid posts. All I know is that I correctly pointed out that the
split-phase service going into homes isn't called two phase, but there
are two phases there. I'd also note that other posters have referred to
phase one and two. But here you are, yapping away, so if you know that,
what's your point?




but it isn't the correct terminology

It is correct that there really are two phases there, 180 deg out of]
phase with each other. Again, I said, that isn't what it's called
but it's what;s there. I suppose if one pointed out that Kleenex are
really a soft paper product made from trees, you'd have issues with
that too.




just as it isn't factually correct that current in a wire flows from + to -, but we all conventionally talk about it as if it did.


Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to 240V outlets
even though it is often not used by the equipment that is plugged in.

There will be a ground at any code compliant receptacles for over half
a century or more. And rare to find a piece of equipment that doesn't
use a ground, for obvious reasons.

That is not correct. It was in 1996 that the NEC changed their rules about requiring a separate protective earth.

BS. An equipment grounding conductor has been required at all new receptacles
for over half a century. And since you want to yap about "terminology"
that is what it's called, not a "protective earth".

You can yammer about terminology all you want, but please don't spread false information. Just check any of many web pages that will tell you the NEC position on earth connections at a receptacle prior to 1996 was that it was not required. That's why homes built prior to 1996 commonly used the 10-30 connector with no earth connection. Look it up or remain ignorant. I don't care.

My house built in 1987 has the NEMA 10-30 dryer connector with neutral and no earth. I should look to see if they actually ran an earth wire to the outlet box in which case I can change the connector without running a new wire.

Confused again. It used the neutral as the equipment grounding conductor
because that was permitted prior to a few decades ago. And it;s 99%
that they didn't run an equipment grounding conductor, that was the whole
point to using just 3 wires instead of 4.

Yes, it has a neutral, it has no safety ground. The neutral can break and the "ground" then becomes hot when the appliance is on. If you want to believe this is the same as having a protective earth, fine. You can live in your delusional world.

Anyone know if it is permissible to connect a protective earth from one cable to another?

No.


If this outlet box has no protective earth, can I simply provide one by other means or does this require a new cable be run? There's a 120 volt outlet with a proper ground right by the 240 volt outlet. Heck, for that matter I could put them both in the same box, right?

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Why do you want to screw around with what is code compliant, safe and
working?

What is installed is not safe as the dryer has no protective earth.

--

Rick C.

--++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:26:12 PM UTC-5, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

mandag den 4. november 2019 kl. 20.29.19 UTC+1 skrev Whoey Louie:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:43:34 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:40:50 -0600, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating
magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could
have continued to use the old two phase system.




One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90
degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker
wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it
is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90
degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After
starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase..

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there.
If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference,
would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how
about 180?


with two phases you can generate more phases by doing linear combinations
with 180 deg you can't


Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two
phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it
doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or
split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well
have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N
wires would just be thicker.

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could
not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would
not also have 240V.

in essence you have single 240 feed and a center tap

That should be 1.5 phases then.

lol

--

Rick C.

-+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

On 2019-11-03 09:13, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 10:15:29 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-11-02 10:59, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 10:55:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C
wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below
75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution
of different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard
about 208V (phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees
phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how
much 240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208
volts rather than 240. I charge my car at level 2
chargers in lots of locations and some 90% of them are
208 volts (give or take) rather than 240. Instead of
getting 7 kW charging rate, I usually see 6 or below
because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes. Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food
store, retirement community parking. These are the ones I
recall off the top of my head. I'm sure I've seen 240 volt
level 2 charging, but I don't recall where that would have
been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones
will only have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V
three-phase is pricey, needs a special transformer and is
typically only used in larger places or ones with a high
electric energy demand.

Not sure what you mean by "small". A "small" hospital?


For example, nursing homes. Smaller facilities up to 12 beds are
usually fed two-phase while the larger ones have a three-phase
feed.

I don't think there is a 12 bed nursing home anywhere around here.
They typically aren't profitable and end up going out of business. I
guess there might be some boutique places.


Maybe the people that run ours are smarter? It's often owners and worker
of Philippine descent. The 11-bed home 2mi north of us that we visit
every two weeks is a place I could really like if I'd need it at old
age. And I am sure it'll be around because it is run well.

The majority are 6-bed though and IMO they are generally better than the
really big ones.


... I suppose a retail food store could be small and the ones
I've been to were small but had 208 volts at the car chargers.


Small retail stores never have car chargers around where I live.

Sorry, I forgot that where you live is the typical for the world.


California is typical. I get around a bit. BTW, it's the same in Nevada,
Oregon, Idaho, and so on. Also, in case it has escaped you, California
is the state where Tesla is located.


I think you don't realize how pervasive 3 phase power is in the
US. Why would it take a special transformer? It's three phase on
the distribution line, three phase on both sides of the
transformer.


What was meant is not the distribution, that is generally
three-phase. It's about the feed into the building. That is
generally tow-phase 120/240V.

Yes, for residences. The majority of businesses of any size receive
3 phase.


Nope.


Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to
240V outlets even though it is often not used by the equipment
that is plugged in. So there are four connections, 120V phase
1, 120V phase 2, neutral, protective ground. What you need to
keep in mind is that such outlets are generally fused at much
more than the usual 15A or 20A. So the cable from the outlet to
the fuse in your pump circuitry must be rated for the highest
expected circuit breaker current rating.

It entirely depends on the connector. Some have a neutral pin,
some don't. Standard 120 volt outlets here have a neutral pin
and a ground, but because our 240 volt line is two hots, the NEMA
6 series of connectors have no neutral, only a protective earth
ground.


AFAIK that only goes for older buildings, in newer ones (as in
"this century") I have never seen 240V receptacles without
neutral.

If you mean 2000, yes, that is most likely true. The rule was
changed by the NEC in 1996 I believe. Not sure how long it took the
states to adopt that rule change since it is the states that make the
laws. So about 20 years. But the connectors are still widely in
use. Actually, it is the 10 series that is affected by this. The 6
series have a ground and no neutral. The 10 series has a neutral and
no ground. lol


I don't think no-ground would still fly with the inspectors in California.

[...]


... Here appliances use 120 volts unless there is a compelling
need for higher power than can be found in a typical outlet, 120
volts, 15 amps.


I became sorely aware of that when moving to the US. Neitehr the
printer nor the copier I brought from Europe worked because no
enough juice in a circuit.

There's your problem. We don't have juice in our circuits. We have
electricity. A 240 volt connection is not hard to provide, it's just
not common because we standardized on 120 volts in the home about a
hundred years ago. Did no one tell you about that?


Your crystal ball has fallen off the balcony. You do not know our house.


Now that I started home-brewing it's the same. I have to use two
1kW burners back to back under the brew kettle, plugged into
different circuits. Oh how I wish I could use one of those European
3kW burners.

You could if you just ran a 240 volt line.

It sometimes seems like you go out of your way to make things
difficult.


You tend towards premature conclusions. Running 240V to that place is
not trivial at all in an existing structure with lava rock walls and stuff.


BTW, you do know you can get up to 1440 watts on a 15 amp circuit,
no? You can get up to 1,920 watts on a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit.


Peanuts. In Europe all the circuits were 230V 16A or higher. That's one
of the few things I still miss. The others are bread dumplings and
Leberkaese


... So
you just need a 20 amp, 120 volt circuit, no 240 volt European
heaters required.


You are normally not supposed to have a continuous load near the circuit
breaker limit. Anyhow, how does 120V 20A rival a 3kW burner? When
brewing, heating times matter. A lot.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In many ways you are just a really weird dude. It is literally impossible to discuss many things with you because you refuse to consider that your little slice of the world is not the entire world.

Oh, well. No point in even trying to discuss things with you.

BTW, you can run 240 volts over the same wires you presently are running 120 volts on. Same current double the voltage, now you can use one heater. But I'm sure you have any number of reasons for not doing that.

--

Rick C.

--+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:37:32 PM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:29:13 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:43:34 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:40:50 -0600, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

The whole point with multiphase system is to create a rotating
magnetic fields for motors, so that these will reliably start.

That's one point, but it's hardly the only point. If it was we could
have continued to use the old two phase system.

That old 90 degree two phase system was really stupid, since it would
have required two pairs for both phases (L1, N1 resp. L2, N2) or a
beefy N1+N2 conductor. The three phase system has just L1, L2 and L3
but no N in delta configuration..


One such system was the two phase used in Niagara Falls with a 90
degree phase shift system. Unfortunately it required moro/thicker
wires than the three phase (120 degree) system for the same power.

The US 120-0-120 V system doesn't create a rotating magnetic field, it
is just a single phase system. To start a single phase motor, a 90
degree phase shift is locally created with a starting capacitor. After
starting a single phase system runs fine without the additional phase.

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact of what's actually there.
If I took the old two phase, 90 deg and made it 100 deg difference,

No problem.

would there still be two phases? How about 179 or 181? Then how
about 180?

180 degree absolutely not, 179, or 181 very unlikely. If you are going
to use multiple phases, make sure there is an ample phase difference
from 0 or 180 degrees.

Thank you for proving my point. You are not applying definitions uniformly,
instead you make them up as you go. That's not science and engineering.

Even a three phase runs with a single phase if wye connected (or two
phases if delta connected) with significantly reduced power, but it
doesn't start without all three phases.

For some strange reason the US system is called anti-phase or
split-phase system, while it is just single phase. You could as well
have only a single 120 V (no center tap) feed into homes, the L and N
wires would just be thicker.

I've never heard of it being called anti-phase, ever. And no, you could
not just have a single 120V feed into the house because then you would
not also have 240V.

If the dryer manufacturers are told that only 120 V at 60 Hz is the
only voltage available, would that be a problem ?

Yes, because it would take a very long time to dry clothes.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 6:46:54 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:11:00 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:47:39 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 9:26:12 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 4:40:01 PM UTC-5, John S wrote:
On 11/2/2019 9:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-31 17:10, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:27:12 UTC+1, Rick C  wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 4:33:20 AM UTC-4,
klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

I am working on a US variant on a small pump (below 75W)

But, I am unable to find the percentage of distribution of
different US mains voltage

My guess is that most is 115V, but I have also heard about 208V
(phase phase), and 240V (120V, 180 degrees phase inverted)

Any inputs of how much is 115V grid, how much 208, how much
240V?

A large percentage of commercial installations are 208 volts
rather than 240.  I charge my car at level 2 chargers in lots of
locations and some 90% of them are 208 volts (give or take)
rather than 240.  Instead of getting 7 kW charging rate, I
usually see 6 or below because of the voltage.


Good info

Commercial, would that be businesses, hotels, or what?

Pretty much yes.  Hotels, hospital parking deck, retail food store,
retirement community parking.  These are the ones I recall off the
top of my head.  I'm sure I've seen 240 volt level 2 charging, but I
don't recall where that would have been.


Even among those commercial operations most of the small ones will only
have 120/240V wiring, two-phase 180 degrees. 208V three-phase is pricey,
needs a special transformer and is typically only used in larger places
or ones with a high electric energy demand.

240/120 is correct because it comes from a 240V center-tapped
transformer. Two phase is not correct. See

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=two+phase+power

It's not referred to as two phase, but that is what is actually present.
There are two hots that are 180 deg out of phase with each other, which
is what you get from a center tapped transformer. You would model it as
cos(wt), cos(wt+180)

We all know that,

I have no idea what anyone here knows or doesn't know, especially from some
of the stupid posts. All I know is that I correctly pointed out that the
split-phase service going into homes isn't called two phase, but there
are two phases there. I'd also note that other posters have referred to
phase one and two. But here you are, yapping away, so if you know that,
what's your point?




but it isn't the correct terminology

It is correct that there really are two phases there, 180 deg out of]
phase with each other. Again, I said, that isn't what it's called
but it's what;s there. I suppose if one pointed out that Kleenex are
really a soft paper product made from trees, you'd have issues with
that too.




just as it isn't factually correct that current in a wire flows from + to -, but we all conventionally talk about it as if it did.


Klaus, in the US you will usually see ground distributed to 240V outlets
even though it is often not used by the equipment that is plugged in.

There will be a ground at any code compliant receptacles for over half
a century or more. And rare to find a piece of equipment that doesn't
use a ground, for obvious reasons.

That is not correct. It was in 1996 that the NEC changed their rules about requiring a separate protective earth.

BS. An equipment grounding conductor has been required at all new receptacles
for over half a century. And since you want to yap about "terminology"
that is what it's called, not a "protective earth".

You can yammer about terminology all you want, but please don't spread false information. Just check any of many web pages that will tell you the NEC position on earth connections at a receptacle prior to 1996 was that it was not required.

You're the one who started yammering about terminology, yet you call an
equipment grounding conductor a "protective earth". Go figure. What you
can't understand is that all 240V receptacles have in fact had a ground
connection for most of the last century, one way or the other. That changed
in the 90s was that you could no longer use the NEUTRAL for
dryers, ranges, and similar as the GROUND. Following your logic, in 1985
one could have run a new 240V code compliant circuit to a receptacle and
have no ground.
That's BS. If it's a circuit with no neutral, an equipment grounding
conductor was required. The receptacle was 3 wires, two hots, one ground.
If you ran a circuit for a dryer, which used a neutral, then using the
neutral as the ground was permitted. You then had a 3 wire receptacle,
two hots, and the neutral/ground. The appliance was still GROUNDED.

My house built in 1987 has the NEMA 10-30 dryer connector with neutral and no earth. I should look to see if they actually ran an earth wire to the outlet box in which case I can change the connector without running a new wire.

Confused again. It used the neutral as the equipment grounding conductor
because that was permitted prior to a few decades ago. And it;s 99%
that they didn't run an equipment grounding conductor, that was the whole
point to using just 3 wires instead of 4.

Yes, it has a neutral, it has no safety ground.

It's grounded through the neutral.



The neutral can break and the "ground" then becomes hot when the appliance is on. If you want to believe this is the same as having a protective earth, fine. You can live in your delusional world.

You;re the one spouting off, yet ignorant of the correct terminology.
Again, it's the "equipment grounding conductor". And what the other poster
said is wrong. He said that it's hard to find 240V receptacles with a ground.
Just go look at all the pool pumps installed with a cord in the last half
century. If they are done to code, not hacked by dummies that don't know
the code or terminology, they will have two hots and a GROUND. What you see
at your dryer doesn't define the code and it's not all the 240V usage in
the US.

Anyone know if it is permissible to connect a protective earth from one cable to another?

No.


If this outlet box has no protective earth, can I simply provide one by other means or does this require a new cable be run? There's a 120 volt outlet with a proper ground right by the 240 volt outlet. Heck, for that matter I could put them both in the same box, right?

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Why do you want to screw around with what is code compliant, safe and
working?

What is installed is not safe as the dryer has no protective earth.

That's BS and a lie. Cite for us all the deaths and injuries from all
the dryers installed in the last century that used 3 wires, with the
neutral used as the ground. You can't. It was already safe, but
the NEC folks elected to make it even safer.

This from the code and safety expert who has posted:

Keeps calling an equipment grounding conductor a "protective earth".

It was rare to find a 240V receptacle with a ground for the last
half century. (Go look at pool pumps or similar on a cord that use only 240V)

Dishwashers have to be installed on a cord (Total BS)

You can't buy a new dryer or similar appliance and use it with a 3 wire connection. (Wrong, which is why dryers are typically sold without a cord
and they sell code compliant cords that are either 3 or 4 wire.

Asked if he can connect the ground on one circuit to the ground on another.
(That in pursuit of making his dangerous 3-wire dryer circuit "safer")

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 9:52:40 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 06:02:25 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

using a single 120 V single phase feed instead of a 120-0-120 V split
phase feed


If the dryer manufacturers are told that only 120 V at 60 Hz is the
only voltage available, would that be a problem ?

Yes, because it would take a very long time to dry clothes.

A dumb manufacturer would still use the same resistance and the power
would drop to 1/4.

A smart manufacturer would drop the resistance to 1/4 (i.e. split the
original resistor into two segments and join the two segments in
parallel) and the original heat would be restored. Of course the
current needs to be doubled.

And it would be plugged into what? Dryer locations are wired for 240v,30a. Elsewhere receptacles are generally 15 or 20a. You could put in a 50a, 120v circuit, but it would be nuts, costly and harder to run. Stupid when 240v is available and it's obviously much better.

 

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:33:04 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 9:52:40 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 06:02:25 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

using a single 120 V single phase feed instead of a 120-0-120 V split
phase feed


If the dryer manufacturers are told that only 120 V at 60 Hz is the
only voltage available, would that be a problem ?

Yes, because it would take a very long time to dry clothes.

A dumb manufacturer would still use the same resistance and the power
would drop to 1/4.

A smart manufacturer would drop the resistance to 1/4 (i.e. split the
original resistor into two segments and join the two segments in
parallel) and the original heat would be restored. Of course the
current needs to be doubled.

And it would be plugged into what? Dryer locations are wired for 240v,30a. Elsewhere receptacles are generally 15 or 20a. You could put in a 50a, 120v circuit, but it would be nuts, costly and harder to run. Stupid when 240v is available and it's obviously much better.

Just get rid of your stupid split phase system and run all loads at
120 V. Alternative run everything (including lamps) from 240 V only.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 10:58:01 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:33:04 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 9:52:40 AM UTC-5, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 06:02:25 -0800 (PST), Whoey Louie
trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

using a single 120 V single phase feed instead of a 120-0-120 V split
phase feed


If the dryer manufacturers are told that only 120 V at 60 Hz is the
only voltage available, would that be a problem ?

Yes, because it would take a very long time to dry clothes.

A dumb manufacturer would still use the same resistance and the power
would drop to 1/4.

A smart manufacturer would drop the resistance to 1/4 (i.e. split the
original resistor into two segments and join the two segments in
parallel) and the original heat would be restored. Of course the
current needs to be doubled.

And it would be plugged into what? Dryer locations are wired for 240v,30a. Elsewhere receptacles are generally 15 or 20a. You could put in a 50a, 120v circuit, but it would be nuts, costly and harder to run. Stupid when 240v is available and it's obviously much better.

Just get rid of your stupid split phase system and run all loads at
120 V. Alternative run everything (including lamps) from 240 V only.

I said in an earlier post that if we were starting from scratch today,
we might go with 240V, that it has advantages. But there is
nothing stupid about split-phase, it works well and for sure it would
be insane to go fix what is not broken. And as I just pointed out, trying
to run dryers and similar high power appliances that require dedicated
circuits on 120V is what would be stupid. We run dryers on 10 gauge wire. You'd need 4 gauge for 60 amps, huge, costly, difficult to run, insane.
No need to fix what isn't broken.

 

[Wolf Bagger]

On 2019-10-31 12:36, keith wright wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 09:24:47 UTC-7, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

No, the UK remained at 240v - the asymmetric EU standard of 230+10%/-6% allows both 220v and 240v to be within the standard with no physical change.

Still 240V but the harmonized EU standard has been 230VÂą10% since 2008.

 

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 2:52:04 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 12:06:22 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 11:32:00 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 11:06:29 AM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:

If we were to start from scratch, I see
compelling advantages to going with 240V as the standard for all
loads, eg an electric kettle could heat twice as fast. I see
some small advantages, eg the 50 cents above, but I sure
don't see a compelling advantage to 3 phase for homes.

Your assumption that a kettle would boil twice as fast is based on an assumption that the same size wire and so the same current capacity would be used. I believe in the UK circuits can be typically 9 or 13 amps, so smaller than the 15 or 20 we typically use.

IDK what they do over there. But yes, I was assuming that we'd
continue to use the same size minimum conductors, so a 15A
circuit would then deliver twice the power.




If we weren't going to save on the cost of wiring there is no real reason to convert.

Who said anything about converting? I said if we were starting from
scratch.

Either way. No point if it doesn't save money. That is the point of 3 phase. While it makes many things more complex, it saves on copper costs.

One significant advantage is that you easily get a rotating field, so
a 3 phase motor is simple, no need for special arrangements to get the
motor started. Before VFDs became common, this was an important issue.

One significant problem especially in the US is the low voltages
(120/240 V) and hence large currents. This means that the distribution
transformer (pole pig) must be very close to the load, which requires
a dense medium voltage (14 kV?) network.

The low voltages can be blamed on Edison and his incandesce lamps that
initially had a low voltage rating. Later versions could handle
voltages over 200 V, so the rest of the world adapted 220-240 V for
lamp loads.

Lets speculate what the distribution would look today, if designed
from scratch.

Now that the incandesce lamps are gone, a much higher voltage could
be selected.

These days a 750 to 1500 Vdc distribution voltage could be selected.
If 3 phase is needed for some motors, a VFD from +/-350 Vdc could be
used to generate 230/400 V with low distortion. With a DC feed no need
for a PFC. For small loads simple DC/DC converters could be used.
These would be simpler than current inverters, since there would be no
need to generate a sine voltage.

You're advocating 750 to 1500 volts going into homes, small
businesses, etc?

For the special case, the US market, even as low as 350 Vdc would be
sufficient. From it, it is easy to generate single phase 120 Vac,
split phase 240 Vac as well as 208 Vac three phase just with PWM Such
voltages are typically needed for loads requiring sine AC such as
induction motors.

For other lower DC voltages, simple DC/DC square wave converters could
be used, no need to generate sine waves in each stage.

For data centers there is a standard voltage 380 Vdc (+/-190 Vdc)
could also be used.

Some EVs have about 400 V battery voltage so using a 0 - 30 V high
current on-board variable voltage booster on top of a 380 Vdc feed
could be used to regulate the charging current. No special super
charging stations needed.

In the rest of the world 700 - 750 Vdc would be required for
generating clean 230/400 V sine for AC motors.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:33:38 PM UTC-5, Wolf Bagger wrote:

On 2019-10-31 12:36, keith wright wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 09:24:47 UTC-7, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

No, the UK remained at 240v - the asymmetric EU standard of 230+10%/-6% allows both 220v and 240v to be within the standard with no physical change.

Still 240V but the harmonized EU standard has been 230VÂą10% since 2008.

Sounds like another example of the EU imposing on the UK. Once they Brexit, they can go back to the good old days of 240v.

 

On Friday, 8 November 2019 01:44:51 UTC, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:33:38 PM UTC-5, Wolf Bagger wrote:
On 2019-10-31 12:36, keith wright wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 09:24:47 UTC-7, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V..

No, the UK remained at 240v - the asymmetric EU standard of 230+10%/-6% allows both 220v and 240v to be within the standard with no physical change.

Still 240V but the harmonized EU standard has been 230VÂą10% since 2008.

Sounds like another example of the EU imposing on the UK. Once they Brexit, they can go back to the good old days of 240v.

Not at all. We never changed, so there is nothing to change back to.

John