Need some help, what is percentage US voltages on 115V, 208V

[Piotr Wyderski]

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

That makes more sense than
what we do here

I like yours, it is inherently much safer. But it is too late to change.

> The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.

No John, the British are small compared to that. These are of the size
of a Pepsi can, more or less. They are super-robust.

> Do residences get all three phases?

Yes. Newer flats as well.

Best regards, Piotr

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 16.00.11 UTC+1 skrev Piotr Wyderski:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

400 line to neutral? Even line-line, that is a lot of volts.

400V line to line, 230V line to neutral, 120 degrees phase shift.

Are there step-down transformers before outlets?

Not really, however the 400V equipment uses much more robust
plugs/outlets or is directly wired, without the plug.

https://image.ceneostatic.pl/data/products/17640163/f-pce-32a-5p-wtyczka-trojfazowa-pce.jpg

If it looks big and heavy, that's because it is.

and on the smart ones you can swap two phases with a screw driver if a motor runs the wrong way

https://media.highlight-led.de/products/images/40335.jpg

 

[Piotr Wyderski]

Rick C wrote:

> How do you get 240 volts to run appliances?

You simply wire the neutral and any phase you like to the outlet. In
older blocks of flats they used to route the phases in a round-robin
fashion to different flats in hope of balancing the 3-phase 15kV/380V
transformer. Now they don't seem to care.

> Or do they make yet another voltage capable set of devices?

Technically yes, but this is the default set of plugs/outlets.
The 400V case is considered special and often there is no single outlet
-- the devices use fixed, direct wiring to the cable embedded in the
wall. These outlets are usually external to allow bigger devices located
in the backyard to be connected. This is mostly in rural areas.

Best regards, Piotr

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 16.38.43 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 15.47.57 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:43:30 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:

Getting 208V requires a 3-phase service, which is common in commercial
installations but not elsewhere.

Interesting, newer flats in Poland are customarily equipped with 3 phase
400VAC, with houses it has always (= including the Commie-dy Central
times) been like that, I believe.

Best regards, Piotr

400 line to neutral? Even line-line, that is a lot of volts. Are there
step-down transformers before outlets?

230V phase to neutral, 400V phase to phase


Where would people buy gadgets that run off 400?


water heaters, AC, welders, bigger stationary power tools

Do residential water heaters actually run on three phase? That would require three heating elements rather than one. Or do they actually make a three phase heating element?

https://www.vvs-eksperten.dk/sites/vvs-eksperten.dk/files/product_images/346152090_image.jpg

 

[Piotr Wyderski]

Rick C wrote:

> Do residential water heaters actually run on three phase?

Some do, some don't. You can buy anything you like.
I think there are 3 internal heaters inside, that is the star connection
of heating elements. That way you can have a universal 230V heating
element, good for either application.

Best regards, Piotr

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:

Rick C wrote:

Do residential water heaters actually run on three phase?

Some do, some don't. You can buy anything you like.
I think there are 3 internal heaters inside, that is the star connection
of heating elements. That way you can have a universal 230V heating
element, good for either application.

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power? With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line. We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove). It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances. What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase power?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:00:05 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

400 line to neutral? Even line-line, that is a lot of volts.

400V line to line, 230V line to neutral, 120 degrees phase shift.

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it? That makes more sense than
what we do here, but it's too late to change now. Universal-input PFC
power supplies are great.

Are there step-down transformers before outlets?

Not really, however the 400V equipment uses much more robust
plugs/outlets or is directly wired, without the plug.

https://image.ceneostatic.pl/data/products/17640163/f-pce-32a-5p-wtyczka-trojfazowa-pce.jpg

If it looks big and heavy, that's because it is.

The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.

Where would people buy gadgets that run off 400?

Actually, there are many of them. Stoves and furnaces, water heaters,
agricultural equipment. Some of them are truly 3-phase, some of them
are 3 independent 1-phase units in a single enclosure, designed that way
in order not to overload the sinlge phase wiring.

Do residences get all three phases? We get 120-N-120, one split phase.
We have gas for big heating uses, so don't need so much electricity.

Best regards, Piotr

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:24:41 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

That makes more sense than
what we do here

I like yours, it is inherently much safer. But it is too late to change.

The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.

No John, the British are small compared to that. These are of the size
of a Pepsi can, more or less. They are super-robust.

Does every lamp and phone charger and electric toothbrush get one of
those?

You guys make such a big deal over electricity.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pfzxiyfey9mybf/Belkin.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3c87y2afg3s3747/JL_Bench.JPG?raw=1

Imagine all those as pepsi cans.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 14:37:16 UTC, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:qper4u02nge@drn.newsguy.com:

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote...

Doesn't anyone look at the power requisite placards
ALL AC powered consumer products have nowadays?

I have not seen "115V" listed since the fucking sixties!

They usually say something like 95 to 250V, not helpful.


Yes, the auto-switcher types do. I even had to make a server supply
that would go down to 85 Volts so that a user at the end of the line in
Japan would still get operation on a line that has drooped down to near
80 to 90 Volts.

Just to add to the fun, Japan has both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies in
different regions.

John

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 18.07.09 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

What is stupid about that? It is to protect the line coming into the home. We do the same here. Most homes are 200 amps.


With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

Yes, we save on lighting expenses that way. ;-)

You still haven't explained any reason why you would need three phase power in the home. Your 16 amp line at 240 volts is about twice the power of our 15 amp, 120 volt lines we use to power lamps and such.

What do you need with three phase in the home that you can't supply with 240 volts?

nothing, but generation and distribution is three phase because it can transfer more power using less copper

I get 3*230V using 3+1 wires, you get 2*120V using 2+1 wires

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

You have a welding machine in your home? I have a friend who has a full metal shop in his triple garage including at least one welder. All powered from 240 volts. None three phase.

if he has any big machine tools like a lathe or mill, he most likely have
a big noisy rotary phase converter to get three phase

and even for a welder or variable frequency drive three phase is an
advantage because rectifying to DC is easier

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:

Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

What is stupid about that? It is to protect the line coming into the home. We do the same here. Most homes are 200 amps.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

Yes, we save on lighting expenses that way. ;-)

You still haven't explained any reason why you would need three phase power in the home. Your 16 amp line at 240 volts is about twice the power of our 15 amp, 120 volt lines we use to power lamps and such.

What do you need with three phase in the home that you can't supply with 240 volts?

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

You have a welding machine in your home? I have a friend who has a full metal shop in his triple garage including at least one welder. All powered from 240 volts. None three phase.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[PeterSchneider]

Am 31.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Piotr Wyderski:

Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

 We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the
house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

  It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

    Best regrds, Piotr

In europe there a continuous-flow water heaters with up to 21 kW. They
heat "just-intime" without any reservoir

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 18.38.36 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:24:41 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

That makes more sense than
what we do here

I like yours, it is inherently much safer. But it is too late to change.

The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.

No John, the British are small compared to that. These are of the size
of a Pepsi can, more or less. They are super-robust.

Does every lamp and phone charger and electric toothbrush get one of
those?

not, the big red ones are for big three phase power tools and such, it is
rated for 3*32A

more normal, plug

https://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/PL13320-40.jpg

or when you only need a few amps and no ground

https://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/42631462.jpg

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 19.57.07 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, PeterSchneider wrote:
Am 31.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Piotr Wyderski:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

 We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the
house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

  It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

    Best regrds, Piotr


In europe there a continuous-flow water heaters with up to 21 kW. They
heat "just-intime" without any reservoir

That would be 90 amps which we can do in the US with 240 volts. In fact, Tesla home car chargers can be wired up with 100 amp service to drive 80 amp charging to some of the older cars. Mine will only accept 72 amps, so no point in more than 90 amps on a single charger but they can be used in parallel on a single 100 amp circuit. We derate our socketed connections to 80% for continuous loads, not sure exactly why.

The point is we have 240 volt, 100 amp connections for such high current loads. I don't see the need for 3 phase.

so you need 2 wires capable of 100A to get 24kW, we need 3 wires capable of ~30A

 

[keith wright]

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 09:24:47 UTC-7, Piotr Wyderski wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Oh, that's the European standard, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It used to be 220V in the past, they changed it to 230V
(with the asymetric tolerance band, 220*1.1=230*1.06 up to an epsilon,
which is good for older devices). The UK went down to 230V from 240V.

No, the UK remained at 240v - the asymmetric EU standard of 230+10%/-6% allows both 220v and 240v to be within the standard with no physical change.

That makes more sense than
what we do here

I like yours, it is inherently much safer. But it is too late to change.

The British ones, giant cubes with fuses inside, look worse.

I like the UK ones, robust, don't get hot even at 13A, allow 3kW from an outlet. The fuse within the plug can be appropriate for the load.

The US ones are convenient because they are small but they are very limiting for high-power portable devices such as kitchen appliances.

No John, the British are small compared to that. These are of the size
of a Pepsi can, more or less. They are super-robust.

Do residences get all three phases?

Yes. Newer flats as well.

Electric vehicles sold in the EU (such as Rick's Tesla Model X) have a 3-phase input that allows up to 43kW input power in some vehicles. In the case of the Tesla there are essentially 3 separate chargers in the car.
> Best regards, Piotr

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 20.04.29 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:09:43 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

not, the big red ones are for big three phase power tools and such, it is
rated for 3*32A

What's the calculation for wattage on three phase?

3*32A*230V or sqrt(3)*32*400 = ~22kW

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, PeterSchneider wrote:

Am 31.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Piotr Wyderski:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

 We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the
house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

  It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

    Best regrds, Piotr


In europe there a continuous-flow water heaters with up to 21 kW. They
heat "just-intime" without any reservoir

That would be 90 amps which we can do in the US with 240 volts. In fact, Tesla home car chargers can be wired up with 100 amp service to drive 80 amp charging to some of the older cars. Mine will only accept 72 amps, so no point in more than 90 amps on a single charger but they can be used in parallel on a single 100 amp circuit. We derate our socketed connections to 80% for continuous loads, not sure exactly why.

The point is we have 240 volt, 100 amp connections for such high current loads. I don't see the need for 3 phase.

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:01:16 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote...

UK is used to paying exorbitant prices for everything,
they run 20 cents per kWH.

That's exactly what I pay in Stoneham, MA.

That's well above average in the US. Are you getting juice from a nuke plant? I see why you have solar.

Have you looked into time of use billing? Here it cuts the cost of a kWh by a third. Generation is cut in half but distribution is the same.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 1:29:01 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 18.07.09 UTC+1 skrev Rick C:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-4, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Rick C wrote:

So the current is very limited on this 400 volt power?

It is limited by the agreement with the power company. They install a
sufficiently rated fuse at the entry. This is stupid, BTW, but it is
that way.

What is stupid about that? It is to protect the line coming into the home. We do the same here. Most homes are 200 amps.


With US heaters they get some 4500 to 5500 watts from a 240 volt line.

4500W is equivalent to two electric kettles. Not exactly our
understanding of a heater.

There are devices that consume 10kW or more. Induction stoves with 11kW
rating are not uncommon.

We commonly use up to 40 amps or 9.6 kW for various appliances in the house (mostly the stove).

Our mains fuses are typically 16A (outlets) and 6A (lighting). There are
also bigger, of course, but they are reserved for special places like
the kitchen or the heater compartment.

It's hard to imagine a need for three phase power in any appliances.

For me it is pretty usual. In return, it is hard to imagine a 120V-only
system.
Your wires must run red-hot. But somehow you manage to live

Yes, we save on lighting expenses that way. ;-)

You still haven't explained any reason why you would need three phase power in the home. Your 16 amp line at 240 volts is about twice the power of our 15 amp, 120 volt lines we use to power lamps and such.

What do you need with three phase in the home that you can't supply with 240 volts?


nothing, but generation and distribution is three phase because it can transfer more power using less copper

I get 3*230V using 3+1 wires, you get 2*120V using 2+1 wires

That doesn't explain why bringing 3 phase into the home is common or if there is anything that even uses it?

What wattages are used in residences there that require three phase
power?

10kW+ devices are not uncommon. As said, water heating, AC, agricultural
tools, wood saws, welding machines, etc.

You have a welding machine in your home? I have a friend who has a full metal shop in his triple garage including at least one welder. All powered from 240 volts. None three phase.


if he has any big machine tools like a lathe or mill, he most likely have
a big noisy rotary phase converter to get three phase

and even for a welder or variable frequency drive three phase is an
advantage because rectifying to DC is easier

Nope. It all runs from 240 volts. I think his welder is from the 60s and 70s when he was working as a welder. He doesn't spend money on fancy tools when the ones he has do the job just fine.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:09:43 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

not, the big red ones are for big three phase power tools and such, it is
rated for 3*32A

What's the calculation for wattage on three phase?

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:37:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 31. oktober 2019 kl. 16.00.11 UTC+1 skrev Piotr Wyderski:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

400 line to neutral? Even line-line, that is a lot of volts.

400V line to line, 230V line to neutral, 120 degrees phase shift.

Are there step-down transformers before outlets?

Not really, however the 400V equipment uses much more robust
plugs/outlets or is directly wired, without the plug.

https://image.ceneostatic.pl/data/products/17640163/f-pce-32a-5p-wtyczka-trojfazowa-pce.jpg

If it looks big and heavy, that's because it is.


and on the smart ones you can swap two phases with a screw driver if a motor runs the wrong way

https://media.highlight-led.de/products/images/40335.jpg

Looks like IEC 309 (now officially IEC 60309) 3x16 A (or 3x32 A)
230/400 V 3P+N+E plug.