Maximum rep rate for a standard microswitch.

[Rick C]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:01:22 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2019-09-16, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
On 9/15/2019 6:54 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:45:05 -0500, amdx wrote:

I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation, I
wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?

Mikek

Why not use a hall-effect instead? Or laser and photo-diode with a small
mirror stuck to the side of the quill? I don't see a microswitch as being
suitable for this application.



I have a Root Veeder counter all it needs is a pulse, I wanted the
project to be counting the turns on a coil, not developing a circuit to
make a pulse to drive the counter.

I had a small electomechanical counter that was fine with the sub 10ms
pulses that I got from a half-wave rectifier,

It must be that your microswitch is too slow. perhaps you can arrange
for the counter's drive current to pass through some moving part of the
drill.

That's an idea. A small wire brush can be held tangentially against a smooth part of the drill shaft or even a pulley, if it isn't the type that the belts are moved to adjust the speed. A bit of tape to hold a piece of plastic (don't put the tape where it will be under the wiper) and you have a reasonable contact sensor.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Rick C]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 1:39:23 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Michael Terrell wrote:



Use something made for the job. These come in different counts per turn, and are rated up to 5000 RPM. They run on DC and can be used to count turns, show direction or show the shaft position.


** Nice unit but overkill.

The op only wants to count turns cos he is winding inductors.

His mechanical counter is fine, it just needs a one cycle per rev switch to drive it.

Who gives a crap if it is overkill??? The Veeder-Root counter is crap if he can't make it work. The easy solution is to not focus on fixing the counter interface, but to just get it done by spending a very few bucks on a solution that *will* work.

I haven't finished the thread, but I haven't heard a solution that anyone is sure will work with this counter because no one is certain what is wrong.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 9:16:34 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 9/15/2019 8:01 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:45:05 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation, I
wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

6 Hz should be OK at 50% duty cycle.

Are you debouncing the closure?

Not yet, I'm hoping there is a bit of debounce caused by the
electro/mechanics of the counter. It draws 3/4 amp at 12 volts, I can do
plenty of fast wire touches without it counting,it does give a nice
counter EMF. It won't count until the voltage reaches 6.2 volts.
I'll put in a search tomorrow for my reed switches.

Mikek

You would think a electro-mechanical counter would work fine with a switch closure. Any chance the switch is not only bouncing from the contacts, but the mechanical arm is bouncing as well? What is the connection like?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311567450583

+ transistor and diode

 

[Phil Allison]

mpm wrote:

--------------

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?



Personally, I would not immediately elect to use a reed switch for
this application.

** For a simple turns counter sensor - why ever not?

There are many better ways to do it, especially if you are comfortable
programming up 8-bit micros, or even the new Arduino hobby-grade stuff.

** Yeah - maybe the OP should get NASA to help ?

I would look at Hall Effect sensors, or something in optoelectronics.
You could get rotational speed, a count, and even direction.

** The OP only needs a fucking count.

He has a mechanical pulse counter right now.

Ever hear of the KISS principle ?

Obviously not.


..... Phil

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

tirsdag den 17. september 2019 kl. 01.14.23 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:01:22 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-09-16, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
On 9/15/2019 6:54 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:45:05 -0500, amdx wrote:

I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation, I
wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?

Mikek

Why not use a hall-effect instead? Or laser and photo-diode with a small
mirror stuck to the side of the quill? I don't see a microswitch as being
suitable for this application.



I have a Root Veeder counter all it needs is a pulse, I wanted the
project to be counting the turns on a coil, not developing a circuit to
make a pulse to drive the counter.

I had a small electomechanical counter that was fine with the sub 10ms
pulses that I got from a half-wave rectifier,

It must be that your microswitch is too slow. perhaps you can arrange
for the counter's drive current to pass through some moving part of the
drill.

That's an idea. A small wire brush can be held tangentially against a smooth part of the drill shaft or even a pulley, if it isn't the type that the belts are moved to adjust the speed. A bit of tape to hold a piece of plastic (don't put the tape where it will be under the wiper) and you have a reasonable contact sensor.

or two parallel strips of metal that gets pushed together by a cam

 

On Tuesday, 17 September 2019 00:17:29 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:21:43 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 9/15/2019 10:13 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 16/09/2019 9:45 am, amdx wrote:

I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
  It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
  My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation, I
wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?

                                  Mikek

How are you doing the counting?

Sylvia.

Veeder-Root counter, 12V 8 Watts.
I tried to post a Dropbox picture, lately the link in my Dropbox
window does not highlight to copy.
I had this problem then it started working, now having it again,
anyone else having Dropbox problems?

Mikek

Not trying to be a jerk, but I googled Veeder-Root and that doesn't tell us a lot. They also make electronic counters.

Appearance & specs very much suggest that it's a solenoid operated mechanical counter. If so it won't give a wotsit about a bit of switch bounce. There's no guarantee it will manage 6 operations a second though.

You could just use a cassette deck tape counter & belt.


NT

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

amdx wrote:

I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation, I
wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?

I would think you want to minimize the mass of the offset weight, so a
little shiny foil seems better than a magnet or a mirror.

 

[Phil Allison]

Phil Allison wrote:

----------------------

Who gives a crap if it is overkill???


** Anyone who was sane ?

Mr C just has to be a code scribbler.

Bet he never got the chicken joke on BBT.

** See;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUwlEdz42xo


..... Phil

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Sanity check. If you used a long-life mechanical microswitch...

Recently had to relace my computer mouse cos a microswitch failed, the left click one IIRC.

Lasted about 5 years at say 50 operations per day.

So about 100,000 cycles.

The probable cause of a mouse switch failure is... dirt. I've seen lots
of (floppy insert, mainly) switches fail, that could be brought back
with a few cycles of turning a light bulb on/off. That's because the
low voltages that power a mouse (or floppy drive) are not going to
burn through even a very thin film of oil/dust/schmutz.

At 24V, or with high currents, the flexible parts of a microswitch
are good ... nearly forever.

Reed switches, with modest currents, are good for industrial controls
such as this, with logic level voltages.

 

[mpm]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 6:46:46 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

mpm wrote:

--------------


Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?



Personally, I would not immediately elect to use a reed switch for
this application.


** For a simple turns counter sensor - why ever not?


There are many better ways to do it, especially if you are comfortable
programming up 8-bit micros, or even the new Arduino hobby-grade stuff.


** Yeah - maybe the OP should get NASA to help ?


I would look at Hall Effect sensors, or something in optoelectronics.
You could get rotational speed, a count, and even direction.


** The OP only needs a fucking count.

He has a mechanical pulse counter right now.

Ever hear of the KISS principle ?

Obviously not.


.... Phil

Blah, blah, blah...
Yeah, but I could have it working 100% perfect in a half hour.
Maybe less.

BTW, anyone ever tell you're an asshole?

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 7:16:42 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Rick Cunt the Moron wrote:
--------------------------


** Nice unit but overkill.

The op only wants to count turns cos he is winding inductors.

His mechanical counter is fine,
it just needs a one cycle per rev switch to drive it.

Who gives a crap if it is overkill???


** Anyone who was sane ?

Mr C just has to be a code scribbler.

Bet he never got the chicken joke on BBT.



.... Phil

It is easy to tell when someone has no clue of what they are talking about, they have to use profanity and personal insults.

If they actually had a thought worth discussing, they would share it.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:20:13 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

This should be simple although the mounting mechanics were a little
chore. I still haven't found my reed switches, but I expect that will work.

Nothing is simple. Complexity is symptom of civilization.

This is my counter.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2tx6mf6448d9by/counter.jpg?dl=0

Retch. Pure mechanical. I can't read the model number from your
photo (because it's otto focus) so I can't dig for the specs. My
guess(tm) is that it's a gear drive, driven by a solenoid and ratchet.
The ratchet mechanism makes it really slow. I doubt you could get
more than 1 count per second out of it. Got a square wave generator
and a power xsistor? Try feeding it a 50% duty cycle square wave and
increase the frequency until it starts to miss the count.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:30:28 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Sanity check. If you used a long-life mechanical microswitch, good
for a minimum of 50,000 cycles, at 330 revs per minute and one count
per revolution, your switch will be dead after:
50*10^3 / 330rpm = 151 minutes = 2.5hrs

** That seem realistic to me.

Remember cam actuated timers? Something like nightmare from my past:
<https://www.electronicsurplus.com/cramer-526a-ag-4-20s-timer-cam-4-spdt-10a-20-second>
The really cheap synchronous motor drives would fail before the
microswitches. However, if I replaced the motor, the switches would
be the next to fail. If the contacts had over 1A DC or any inductive
load, the contacts would burn or weld them at about 10,000 cycles.
With AC, the contacts lasted longer. I used to do "industrial
control" systems before the days of PLC controllers. Everything was
relay logic and all the timers were these cam actuated nightmares.
Cleaning moldy decomposed fruit and vegetable yuck from the mechanism
was not my idea of fun.

>Recently had to relace my computer mouse cos a microswitch failed, the left click one IIRC.

"If it moves, it breaks".

Lasted about 5 years at say 50 operations per day.
So about 100,000 cycles.

Sounds about right. I see quite a few mice in my shop with switch
failures. So, I went unto eBay, and bought an assortment of different
mouse switches. When one switch goes bad, I also replace the other
one or two so that all the buttons feel the same. However, the switch
is not always the problem. The plastic "post" that pushes on the
microswitch sometimes gets mashed or worn down, producing insufficient
pressure to close the microswitch. For commodity mice, it's not worth
my time fixing something that could be replaced for under $5.

However, gaming mice are a different story.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gaming+mouse&tbm=isch>
Some of these mice sell for well over $100.
<https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Lightspeed-PowerPlay-Compatible-Lightsync/dp/B07L4BM851/>
I somehow developed a local reputation for fixing gaming mice and get
enough business from gamers to justify a small inventory of
replacement microswitches. However, with gamers, contact failure is
not the problem. Gamers are rather brutal to mice and keyboards. I
see mostly cracked switches, cracked PCB's, shredded cords, mashed
connectors, and food debris jamming the mechanics. I doubt is the
average gaming mouse would last long enough for contact failure to be
a problem.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 16/09/2019 11:21 pm, amdx wrote:

On 9/15/2019 10:13 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 16/09/2019 9:45 am, amdx wrote:
I wanted to make a turns counter for my drill press.
I have it set for 330 RPMs or about 6 cycles per second.
  It doesn't work. Unreliable counting.
  My high point is (switch closure time) about 1/12 of the rotation,
I wonder if I did a 50/50 duty cycle if it would be better.

Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?

                                  Mikek

How are you doing the counting?

Sylvia.

Veeder-Root counter, 12V 8 Watts.
 I tried to post a Dropbox picture, lately the link in my Dropbox
window does not highlight to copy.
I had this problem then it started working, now having it again,
anyone else having Dropbox problems?

                             Mikek

Looks like an electromechanical device. It's entirely possible that it
is not designed to handle a 6Hz rate.

As others have suggested, you probably need an optical/magnetic and
electronic solution to get this to work reliably.

Sylvia.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:19:37 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 6:46:46 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
mpm wrote:

--------------


Or, is expecting the switch to operate at 6Hz just to fast for a
standard microswitch?



Personally, I would not immediately elect to use a reed switch for
this application.


** For a simple turns counter sensor - why ever not?


There are many better ways to do it, especially if you are comfortable
programming up 8-bit micros, or even the new Arduino hobby-grade stuff.


** Yeah - maybe the OP should get NASA to help ?


I would look at Hall Effect sensors, or something in optoelectronics.
You could get rotational speed, a count, and even direction.


** The OP only needs a fucking count.

He has a mechanical pulse counter right now.

Ever hear of the KISS principle ?

Obviously not.


.... Phil

Blah, blah, blah...
Yeah, but I could have it working 100% perfect in a half hour.
Maybe less.

BTW, anyone ever tell you're an asshole?

Sure they have, but put it in terms Phil can understand.

Phil, you are a John Larkin!

--

Rick C.

--- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:48:46 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Rick Cunt is a know nothing PIG
-----------------------------


** Nice unit but overkill.

Who gives a crap if it is overkill???


** Anyone who was sane ?

Mr C just has to be a code scribbler.

Bet he never got the chicken joke on BBT.



.... Phil

It is easy to tell when someone has no clue of what they are talking about, they have to use profanity and personal insults.


** 1000% wrong.

YOU are a KNOWN fuckwit and brain dead TROLL.

No need exists to debate with people you, at all.

Getting you to piss off would be a public service.

For Christ's sake FOAD.



.... Phil

And yet he keeps replying. I think it is obvious who is brain dead or potentially off their meds. I guess I shouldn't poke fun at the mentally ill. It's no my fault if he keeps asking for it.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Allison]

Some Fuckhead hiding behind mpm wrote:

There are many better ways to do it, especially if you are comfortable
programming up 8-bit micros, or even the new Arduino hobby-grade stuff.


** Yeah - maybe the OP should get NASA to help ?


I would look at Hall Effect sensors, or something in optoelectronics.
You could get rotational speed, a count, and even direction.


** The OP only needs a fucking count.

He has a mechanical pulse counter right now.

Ever hear of the KISS principle ?

Obviously not.


Blah, blah, blah...

** Sounds like a sheep with a bad cold ...

Yeah, but I could have it working 100% perfect in a half hour.

** No you couldn't.

You are just another brain dead, code scribble.


> BTW, anyone ever tell you're an asshole?

** No actually.

Bet you get told that name every day.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Rick Cunt is a know nothing PIG
-----------------------------

** Nice unit but overkill.

Who gives a crap if it is overkill???


** Anyone who was sane ?

Mr C just has to be a code scribbler.

Bet he never got the chicken joke on BBT.



.... Phil

It is easy to tell when someone has no clue of what they are talking about, they have to use profanity and personal insults.

** 1000% wrong.

YOU are a KNOWN fuckwit and brain dead TROLL.

No need exists to debate with people you, at all.

Getting you to piss off would be a public service.

For Christ's sake FOAD.



..... Phil

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-09-17, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:20:13 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
This should be simple although the mounting mechanics were a little
chore. I still haven't found my reed switches, but I expect that will work.

Nothing is simple. Complexity is symptom of civilization.

This is my counter.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2tx6mf6448d9by/counter.jpg?dl=0

Retch. Pure mechanical. I can't read the model number from your
photo (because it's otto focus) so I can't dig for the specs. My
guess(tm) is that it's a gear drive, driven by a solenoid and ratchet.
The ratchet mechanism makes it really slow. I doubt you could get
more than 1 count per second out of it. Got a square wave generator
and a power xsistor? Try feeding it a 50% duty cycle square wave and
increase the frequency until it starts to miss the count.

I've run a solenoid-ratchet counter at 50 counts per second (but it said
it was capable of this on the boilerplate)

Amdx's counter has the appearance of being an older device than the one
I had. It looks Art-Deco, so possibly designed in the 1930s.

However it could be that it just needs a clean and re-lubrication to
restore its performance.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.