For All the Michael Moore Fans

Richard Henry · Jul 9, 2004

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40ee939c$0$1166$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:07:06 -0400, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Common experience should tell you that if 90,000 people took the time
to report crimes that were averted, many times that number didn't
take the effort....after all, the criminal act was prevented from being
carried out, and in many locations, using a gun to prevent a crime is
a crime in itself.

As I said, my *personal* (admittedly not "common") experience is that
three good people I knew died by gunshot, I feel that the presence of
a gun made it more likely for it to happen, and I don't personally
know of a single situation where a gun did any good. Maybe just my
luck. What's your experience?

John

In the course of my life, I knew two people who used a gun to
commit suicide. The time span between their deaths was 30 years.
I consider suicide to be a shame, but a god given right, none the
less.

Two people for me also. One was a young plumber whose wife went back to
Mama and took the kids. He got her on the phone one night and shot himself
in the mouth while she was listening.

The other was an older manager who had been given a short life time
prediction from his doctor due to prostate cancer. He went to his
girlfriend's house for one last evening, then went into her backyard and
shot himself in the head.

John Larkin · Jul 9, 2004

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:54 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40ee939c$0$1166$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:07:06 -0400, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Common experience should tell you that if 90,000 people took the time
to report crimes that were averted, many times that number didn't
take the effort....after all, the criminal act was prevented from being
carried out, and in many locations, using a gun to prevent a crime is
a crime in itself.

As I said, my *personal* (admittedly not "common") experience is that
three good people I knew died by gunshot, I feel that the presence of
a gun made it more likely for it to happen, and I don't personally
know of a single situation where a gun did any good. Maybe just my
luck. What's your experience?

John

In the course of my life, I knew two people who used a gun to
commit suicide. The time span between their deaths was 30 years.
I consider suicide to be a shame, but a god given right, none the
less.

Two people for me also. One was a young plumber whose wife went back to
Mama and took the kids. He got her on the phone one night and shot himself
in the mouth while she was listening.

I bet he wouldn't have done that with a baseball bat.

The other was an older manager who had been given a short life time
prediction from his doctor due to prostate cancer. He went to his
girlfriend's house for one last evening, then went into her backyard and
shot himself in the head.

Inconsiderate.

John

Chuck Harris · Jul 9, 2004

John Larkin wrote:

Two people for me also. One was a young plumber whose wife went back to
Mama and took the kids. He got her on the phone one night and shot himself
in the mouth while she was listening.

I bet he wouldn't have done that with a baseball bat.

Nope, but if a gun wasn't available, he would have jumped,
slit his wrists, hung himself, drove a car into a bridge abutment,
taken a drug overdose, brought the lawn mower into the bedroom
and mowed the carpet,..., or just stuck a baggie over his head with
a rubber band.

It has been shown again, and again, that neither the murder rate,
nor the suicide rate (in the US) are coupled in anyway to the number
of guns in civilian ownership.

There are no civilian owned firearms in Japan, yet they have the
highest suicide rate in the world. Every male in Switzerland owns
a fully automatic assault rifle, yet crime using firearms is all
but unheard of.

Guns aren't the problem. It's something else.

-Chuck

John Larkin · Jul 9, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:57:48 -0400, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

Two people for me also. One was a young plumber whose wife went back to
Mama and took the kids. He got her on the phone one night and shot himself
in the mouth while she was listening.

I bet he wouldn't have done that with a baseball bat.

Nope, but if a gun wasn't available, he would have jumped,
slit his wrists, hung himself, drove a car into a bridge abutment,
taken a drug overdose, brought the lawn mower into the bedroom
and mowed the carpet,..., or just stuck a baggie over his head with
a rubber band.

None of those methods would make a loud BANG! (or maybe POP?) to his
wife on the other end of the line, and that drama was the point of the
exercize, not merely to end his life quietly. The noise and drama of a
gun are its main appeal.

"Listen, Marge, I'm going to hit myself in the head with this hammer.
Ouch! OK, I'm going to do it again. Ouch!"

We don't have a NSDA (National Smoke Detector Association) or NSBA
(National Seat Belt Association) like the NRA, even though smoke
detectors and seat belts protect your family a lot better than a gun
does.

John

Jim Thompson · Jul 9, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:34:41 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

[snip]

We don't have a NSDA (National Smoke Detector Association) or NSBA
(National Seat Belt Association) like the NRA, even though smoke
detectors and seat belts protect your family a lot better than a gun
does.

John

But we do have the NFPA and I'll lay you a bet that there's also a
manufacturer's association as well.

Seat belts are a Federal mandate... doesn't need an proponent
association.

Smoke detectors and, in some cases sprinklers, are required in new
home construction around here.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Roger Gt · Jul 9, 2004

<snip>
"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message

: Guns aren't the problem. It's something else.

It's people!

John Larkin · Jul 9, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:21:57 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:34:41 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

[snip]
We don't have a NSDA (National Smoke Detector Association) or NSBA
(National Seat Belt Association) like the NRA, even though smoke
detectors and seat belts protect your family a lot better than a gun
does.

John

But we do have the NFPA and I'll lay you a bet that there's also a
manufacturer's association as well.

Seat belts are a Federal mandate... doesn't need an proponent
association.

I wonder how many people die from not buckling their seat belts while
driving over to the gun shop.

Smoke detectors and, in some cases sprinklers, are required in new
home construction around here.

Some significant number of people die in the US every year because
their smoke detector started making the low-battery peep, and they
just pulled the battery and never replaced it.

John

Jim Thompson · Jul 9, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:41:21 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

[snip]

I wonder how many people die from not buckling their seat belts while
driving over to the gun shop.

Probably quite a few. Seems like we have an accident here every day
where someone dies because of no seat belt and another passenger was
belted in and only has scratches.

I've always been a seat belt nut, put them in my '61 Renault Dauphine
before seat belts were commonplace.

In the 48 years I've been driving I've been in 4 accidents, all of
them with major mechanical destruction, none my fault. In one of them
I was hit at the right front wheel well and spun around in an
intersection one-and-one-half times, walked away with nary a scratch.
(But it was one hell of a trip ;-)

In 1977 I T-boned a stop sign runner at 70MPH, cut the other car
almost in two (fortunately right at the firewall... the dumb broad was
only slightly injured). Walked away with a sprained thumb... broke me
of my habit of hooking my thumbs under the cross bar on the steering
wheel ;-)

Smoke detectors and, in some cases sprinklers, are required in new
home construction around here.

Some significant number of people die in the US every year because
their smoke detector started making the low-battery peep, and they
just pulled the battery and never replaced it.

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin · Jul 10, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:44:03 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

In 1977 I T-boned a stop sign runner at 70MPH, cut the other car
almost in two (fortunately right at the firewall... the dumb broad was
only slightly injured). Walked away with a sprained thumb... broke me
of my habit of hooking my thumbs under the cross bar on the steering
wheel ;-)

Roughly 1972, my #1 wife (the cajun one) was driving my Sprite, and I
was holding #1 brat, about 2, in my lap. We stopped suddenly behind a
big 'merican car and got rear-ended at about 40 MPH by a kid in a
chevy musclecar. The Sprite got completely crushed between the big
cars, crumpled flat front and rear, and spun almost into a canal.
Gasoline everywhere. Just a few stitches and a minor spinal injury,
not bad considering.

None of my other wrecks were nearly as interesting, except maybe the
one when I hit the forklift blades in my daddy's Impala.

John

Chuck Harris · Jul 10, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

Probably quite a few. Seems like we have an accident here every day
where someone dies because of no seat belt and another passenger was
belted in and only has scratches.

I've always been a seat belt nut, put them in my '61 Renault Dauphine
before seat belts were commonplace.

When I was in High School, one of my friends had a '61 Renault Dauphine,
Gordini model. It was a neat little 4 door buggy for a bunch of teen
agers to drive. Well, we always thought it was a death trap, but never
had any problems.

One day we happened upon a book published by the NHB, I think it was.
They book had a whole chapter featuring the '61 Renault Dauphine.
There were accident and testing pictures for hits from all
directions. The most interesting one was a Dauphine that slid sideways
into a telephone pole. The car was cleaved in half between the front
doors, and the back doors. The problem was that the front seats were
in the front half, and the seat belt anchors were in the back half. The driver
of that car was chopped in two by his lap belt.... OOPS!

The NHB had all sorts of recommendations for how the car should be modified
to prevent this problem. The principal change, as I recall, was to mount
the seat belt anchors in front of the seam that connected the front of the
car body to the back. I think Renault's solution was to stop exporting
Dauphines to the US.

-Chuck

John Miles · Jul 10, 2004

In article <4teoe05eu378qq4kbnphe312pqu9ks9or8@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

That didn't seem to be a problem in rural Oklahoma where I grew up. As
the famous tech-support maxim states, "It doesn't seem to happen here.
The problem must be on your end."

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------

xray · Jul 10, 2004

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:45:33 -0400, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

in my '61 Renault Dauphine

For some reason I suspect Jim isn't driving a French car now.

Right, Jim? And what kind of wine are you cooking with?

Jim Thompson · Jul 10, 2004

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:15:06 GMT, xray <notreally@hotmail.invalid>
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:45:33 -0400, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

in my '61 Renault Dauphine

For some reason I suspect Jim isn't driving a French car now.

Infiniti Q45 for the wife, and I drive a RED Nissan Frontier pickup
truck ;-)

Actually we have owned Nissan products exclusively since 1977, as has
most of the family. One son still insists on buying Ford (fix or
repair daily

The rest of the family units typically own two Nissan
vehicles each, though the oldest daughter also has a Mitsubishi.

Right, Jim? And what kind of wine are you cooking with?

California or Australian or Italian or an occasional South American.
Absolutely no French wine, stopped buying them LONG before their
present obstinacy. The French wines are quite mediocre, and
over-priced, and, with the way France smells like an open sewer, I'm
not sure what you might find in it.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Roger Gt · Jul 10, 2004

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message
news:knvte0d0qr8hs5ntl1h563lrdqcoi8fmeg@4ax.com...
: On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:57:48 -0400, Chuck Harris
: <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
:
: >John Larkin wrote:
: >>>Two people for me also.
: >>>One was a young plumber whose wife went back to
: >>>Mama and took the kids.
: >>>He got her on the phone one night and shot himself
: >>>in the mouth while she was listening.
: >>
: >> I bet he wouldn't have done that with a baseball bat.
: >
: >Nope, but if a gun wasn't available, he would have jumped,
: >slit his wrists, hung himself, drove a car into a bridge
abutment,
: >taken a drug overdose, brought the lawn mower into the bedroom
: >and mowed the carpet,..., or just stuck a baggie over his head
with
: >a rubber band.
: >

: None of those methods would make a loud BANG! (or maybe POP?) to
his
: wife on the other end of the line, and that drama was the point
of the
: exercise, not merely to end his life quietly. The noise and
drama of a
: gun are its main appeal.
:
: "Listen, Marge, I'm going to hit myself in the head with this
hammer.
: Ouch! OK, I'm going to do it again. Ouch!"
:
: We don't have a NSDA (National Smoke Detector Association) or
NSBA
: (National Seat Belt Association) like the NRA, even though smoke
: detectors and seat belts protect your family a lot better than a
gun
: does.
:
: John

WAI: Not all guns make a loud sound! Like I said, Women are more
dangerous than a gun!

The NRA was established after the civil war to assure that the
militia (the populace) was trained in the use of arms. Seems the
south didn't have that problem, the north did. But there is no
need for a group for seat belts, they kill very well as do air
bags.
:

Roger Gt · Jul 10, 2004

"Jim Thompson" wrote
: xray wrote
: >Chuck Harris wrote
<snip>
: >
: >Right, Jim? And what kind of wine are you cooking with?
:
: California or Australian or Italian or an occasional South
American.
: Absolutely no French wine, stopped buying them LONG before their
: present obstinacy. The French wines are quite mediocre, and
: over-priced, and, with the way France smells like an open sewer,
I'm
: not sure what you might find in it.

Might I suggest that some of the wines from Ohio and Oregon are
quite good. You should try them if you get the chance.

Personally I brew my own from fresh fruit! Not Grapes! (With No
additives)

John Larkin · Jul 11, 2004

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:51 -0700, John Miles
<jmiles@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote:

In article <4teoe05eu378qq4kbnphe312pqu9ks9or8@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

That didn't seem to be a problem in rural Oklahoma where I grew up. As
the famous tech-support maxim states, "It doesn't seem to happen here.
The problem must be on your end."

-- jm

I'd expect rural Oklahoma to have a low suicide rate per square mile.

John

Jim Thompson · Jul 11, 2004

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:42:08 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:51 -0700, John Miles
jmiles@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote:

In article <4teoe05eu378qq4kbnphe312pqu9ks9or8@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

That didn't seem to be a problem in rural Oklahoma where I grew up. As
the famous tech-support maxim states, "It doesn't seem to happen here.
The problem must be on your end."

-- jm

I'd expect rural Oklahoma to have a low suicide rate per square mile.

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Woodgate · Jul 11, 2004

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <vd23f0tcnpequjme4ad8aklv2s6uppc7pv@
4ax.com&gt

about 'For All the Michael Moore Fans', on Sun, 11 Jul 2004:

I'd expect rural Oklahoma to have a low suicide rate per square mile.

I don't know if it applies in USA, but in rural England, the length of a
'country mile' seems to be proportional to the degree of rurality. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Larkin · Jul 11, 2004

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:49:35 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:42:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:51 -0700, John Miles
jmiles@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote:

In article <4teoe05eu378qq4kbnphe312pqu9ks9or8@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

That didn't seem to be a problem in rural Oklahoma where I grew up. As
the famous tech-support maxim states, "It doesn't seem to happen here.
The problem must be on your end."

-- jm

I'd expect rural Oklahoma to have a low suicide rate per square mile.

John

But every kid has a rifle, just like we did in West Virginia.
Suicides were virtually unheard of, and when they were they were
usually via slashed wrists.

...Jim Thompson

Good grief, just google something like "suicide rate urban rural" for
some data.

First hit is...

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/903998694.html

"In rural areas, suicide accounted for 91 percent of all firearm
fatalities (20 of 22). In urban areas, suicide accounted for only 20
percent of all firearm fatalities (39 of 158)."

2nd hit, interesting graph for Canada here:

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/factsheets/rural/default.asp

showing small towns with 8x the gunfire suicide rates of large cities.

Third hit says...

"Researchers are beginning to further study why rural residents commit
suicide at a higher rate than those in urban areas...and the West
leads the nation..."

and on the same google page,

"In China the suicide rate in rural areas is three times that of urban
areas (Neal, 1998)."

Actually, the idea that small towns and rural areas have less crime,
suicide, family violence, and sexual peversity is pretty much a myth.

John

Jim Thompson · Jul 11, 2004

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:57:39 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:49:35 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:42:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:59:51 -0700, John Miles
jmiles@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote:

In article <4teoe05eu378qq4kbnphe312pqu9ks9or8@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

That didn't seem to be a problem in rural Oklahoma where I grew up. As
the famous tech-support maxim states, "It doesn't seem to happen here.
The problem must be on your end."

-- jm

I'd expect rural Oklahoma to have a low suicide rate per square mile.

John

But every kid has a rifle, just like we did in West Virginia.
Suicides were virtually unheard of, and when they were they were
usually via slashed wrists.

...Jim Thompson

Good grief, just google something like "suicide rate urban rural" for
some data.

First hit is...

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/903998694.html

"In rural areas, suicide accounted for 91 percent of all firearm
fatalities (20 of 22). In urban areas, suicide accounted for only 20
percent of all firearm fatalities (39 of 158)."

Now, John! You're playing the "How to Lie with Statistics" bit. From
your own citation the suicide RATE is only slightly higher in rural
areas 16/100,000 versus 13.5/100,000. And note the interesting "91%
of all firearm fatalities". That tells me of a low crime rate.

2nd hit, interesting graph for Canada here:

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/factsheets/rural/default.asp

showing small towns with 8x the gunfire suicide rates of large cities.

If I live in rural Canada I might consider suicide myself ;-)

Third hit says...

"Researchers are beginning to further study why rural residents commit
suicide at a higher rate than those in urban areas...and the West
leads the nation..."

and on the same google page,

"In China the suicide rate in rural areas is three times that of urban
areas (Neal, 1998)."

Actually, the idea that small towns and rural areas have less crime,
suicide, family violence, and sexual peversity is pretty much a myth.

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

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