EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:18:01 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." <.@dot.com> wrote:

On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." <.@dot.com> wrote:

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.
I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications.

In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the
initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass
a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap
off the road.
If only there were any documentation to support that claim.

Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of
dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many.

I still fail cars for being rolling junk.


Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial
vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since
selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming
off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has
dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key.
My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars.

Which here in Ontario only require safety checks for transfer, or if
older than a certain age, depending on the insurance company, to get
or maintain insurance coverage.
As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were
a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to
defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by
adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc)
It still is.

Tell me how the average hack can adjust the timing on his 2002 Ford
Taurus 3.0 32 valve V6??? Or even adjust the mixture?

Power tuners and pass through devices that alter the signals from
sensors. See them all the time, and frequently fail the vehicle they are
on.

so that what left the
manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same.
And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were
an insignificant percentage of the motoring public.

You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid
seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate
overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had
the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of
"driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were
"converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was
required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions)
and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many
EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the
mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing
them)

The numbers WERE significant.

Yep, Still happens today. EGR bypass kits, tuner bricks, fake O2 sensor
signal generators, and more.


With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST
majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably
maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but
a money-grab -

Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial
vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth
continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a
"questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety
standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered
safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the
road.
Again, my comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars.

And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private
passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario.

It is in NY as well.

Why people would not remove the "bypoass boxes" to return the vehicle
to stock before submitting for E-Test is beyond me - - - . Same with
"power tuners". They have the capability of storing more than one tune
-

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 03:46:05 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I
don't think included my 1995 car.

(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when
I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or
my car.

Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most
jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models
because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few
1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard"

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.

In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer
and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without
completing step 2 first.

A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle
through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not
pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty
quick.

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 08:00:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:15 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exactly what are you trying to say??? My reply was to say there were
many instances of people - hobbyists and mechanics alike, screwing
with emmission controls in an attempt to defeat them and get better
mileage and power, and getting (usually) neither.

That was the big problem in California. A significant number of
out-of-compliance vehicles were causing most of the pollution. Even
though percentage-wise the number of such vehicles was small, in
absolute numbers it was large enough to cause a problem.

The "catalytic converter test pipe" was popular for a while. But as you
said, in most cases, all the tampering with emissions controls did not
have any effect on mileage and/or power.
Didn't have any significant positive effect on mileage and or power.

And the "test pipe" stopped being an option in 1996 with OBD2 testing
pre and post cat O2 - unless you bought an O2 fake-out device that
generated a fake O2 signal (actually, 2 signals ----)- which caused
other problems (genrally a lot poorer fuel mileage and not much power
improvement, if any)

 

On 20 Sep 2015 12:12:31 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

Except "pending"codes don't turn on the CEL, and the CEL does not
indicate if monitors have been "set"

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.
--scott

 

[Mitch Kaufmann]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/
The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges.

 

[Sofa Slug]

On 9/20/2015 1:29 PM, Mitch Kaufmann wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/
The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges.

According to the LA Times:

"Rather than meet the standards, the EPA says VW sneaked in the defeat
device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer, a
machine that measures emissions. When emissions are being measured, the
defeat device tells the car to operate at "dyno calibration," or full
emission control levels, to meet the standards."

"At all other times, however, the software sets the engine to run on
"road calibration," allowing the excessive emissions. How can the
program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering
wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving
the car, and thus it is likely being tested."

 

[sms]

On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.

Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had
replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating
anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes.

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.

 

[sms]

On 9/20/2015 12:32 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.
In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer
and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without
completing step 2 first.

A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle
through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not
pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty
quick.

In California, one "smog check factory" in L.A. got caught because the
state checked registered addresses of the vehicles and wondered why so
many vehicles were being smogged at this one particular shop when their
registered address was so far away. Few people will drive 25 miles in
L.A. to get a smog check at a particular shop.

My brother-in-law regularly had inspectors come into his shop with test
vehicles to be smogged. They would reveal who they were after the test.
He did really well. He got one demerit for not telling the "customer"
that they had the option of getting the vehicle repaired at his shop or
any shop, even though he did ask if they wanted it to be repaired. But
he still passed the inspection.

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.

Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had
replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating
anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes.

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.

Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the
readiness monitors.. Can't remember how many readiness monitors there
are - but there's a catalyst monitor, a O2 sensor monitor, and EGR
monitors, and O2sensor heater and cat heater monitor on some vehicles.
These are the intermittent monitors that need to be "set" .

Setting the monitor just means they have been through one or more
test sequences and have aquired valid data..

The rest of the monitors are contimuous monitors - misfire,
component, and fuel system, nonitors.

The evap monitor, for instance, is only "valid" in a fixed temperature
range, and with the tank between something like 1/4 and 3/4 full (not
100% sure of the actual numbrs). If you reset the codes or replace
the battery on a vehicle with the tank full or almost empty you can
NOT set the readiness monitor for the evap system - so virtually ALL
OBD2 based emission test facilities will allow at least one monitor to
be un-set or not ready.

If you know what code is coming up, and want to "cheat" the system, if
you can avoid setting that particular monitor, while setting all the
others, you can sometimes get a vehicle to pass. You need to
understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want
dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or
non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR.

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms wrote:

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.

It's usually documented as the FTP.

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:29:30 -0400, Mitch Kaufmann wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/
The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges.

That answers what.
But it doesn't answer HOW.

 

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:03:08 -0700, Sofa Slug wrote:

How can the
program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering
wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving
the car, and thus it is likely being tested."

Finally!

Someone who both understood the question, and who posited an answer!

Of all the posters, you're the ONLY one who understood the question!

 

[Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen]

Sofa Slug <sofaslug@invalid.invalid> wrote in mtn6qu$2in$1@dont-email.me:

VW sneaked in the defeat
device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer

What I'm surprised at is that each state can have a *different* procedure.

In California, they use the dyno, but in many less technical states, they
still use the dumb procedures.

This explains how they noticed there was testing going on.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html
http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/

But that only works for the intelligent states.
How did they also fool the low-tech states like NJ, Kentucky & Kansas?

 

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug:

http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html

"How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the
steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one
is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested."

Apparently VW lied at first, & apparently they can no longer sell the cars:

"The cheating came to light when the California Air Resources Board and
the EPA pressed Volkswagen for an explanation for disparities found between
lab tests and road tests of its vehicle emissions. The agencies didn't
find the technical reasons offered by VW to be convincing and said they
would not issue certificates allowing 2016 models to be sold until the
automaker offered an adequate explanation. "Only then did VW admit it
had designed and installed a defeat device in these vehicles," the EPA
said. VW said it was cooperating with the investigation but otherwise
had no comment."

It's interesting that VW didn't fess up until they were forced to.

 

[Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen]

trader_4 <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in
35c25f4d-0ea3-47c5-94f1-352d98c5b222@googlegroups.com:

> Just the facts.

OK. Just the facts Danno:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:57:34 -0500, Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug:

http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html

"How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the
steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one
is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested."

Apparently VW lied at first, & apparently they can no longer sell the
cars:

"The cheating came to light when the California Air Resources Board and
the EPA pressed Volkswagen for an explanation for disparities found
between
lab tests and road tests of its vehicle emissions. The agencies didn't
find the technical reasons offered by VW to be convincing and said they
would not issue certificates allowing 2016 models to be sold until the
automaker offered an adequate explanation. "Only then did VW admit it
had designed and installed a defeat device in these vehicles," the EPA
said. VW said it was cooperating with the investigation but otherwise
had no comment."

It's interesting that VW didn't fess up until they were forced to.

That's pretty much human nature going back to the Garden of
Eden. The next trick is to blame someone else. A TV show from long
ago had comedian Flip Wilson on. His line was "The devil made me
do it".



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[sms]

On 9/20/2015 4:57 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.

Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had
replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating
anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes.

The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of
manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the
pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information.
Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the
readiness monitors..

Yes, sorry, that's what I was referring to.

Can't remember how many readiness monitors there

are - but there's a catalyst monitor, a O2 sensor monitor, and EGR
monitors, and O2sensor heater and cat heater monitor on some vehicles.
These are the intermittent monitors that need to be "set" .

Setting the monitor just means they have been through one or more
test sequences and have aquired valid data..

The rest of the monitors are contimuous monitors - misfire,
component, and fuel system, nonitors.

The evap monitor, for instance, is only "valid" in a fixed temperature
range, and with the tank between something like 1/4 and 3/4 full (not
100% sure of the actual numbrs). If you reset the codes or replace
the battery on a vehicle with the tank full or almost empty you can
NOT set the readiness monitor for the evap system - so virtually ALL
OBD2 based emission test facilities will allow at least one monitor to
be un-set or not ready.

If you know what code is coming up, and want to "cheat" the system, if
you can avoid setting that particular monitor, while setting all the
others, you can sometimes get a vehicle to pass. You need to
understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want
dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or
non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR.

By the way, there's an excellent Android app for OBD-II called Torque
Pro. The app is $4.95, and a Bluetooth ELM327 OBD-II adapter is less
than $10 (I am using this one
<http://www.dx.com/p/super-mini-elm327-bluetooth-odb2-v1-5-car-diagnostic-interface-tool-blue-142679&gt.
The app does a lot more than just read or clear codes. It will display
electronic gauges based on the sensor readings (especially useful for
vehicles without temperature gauges or tachoometers). You can set alarms
for things like over-temperature. It's also a very accurate speedometer
(via the GPS), and it'll measure things like 0-60.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en>

There's no iOS version because Apple forgot to include the necessary
Bluetooth profile (SPP) in its devices. There are similar apps for iOS
but not nearly as good. This one is one of them
<https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/engine-link-obd-ii-vehicle/id591557194?mt=8>
but you need to get a Wi-Fi ELM327 dongle, not a Bluetooth one.

I like having a 7" tablet with TorquePro and CoPilot (GPS). I made a
holder for the tablet using one of the Panavise mounting brackets
<http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageID=1&id1=30&startat=1&--woSECTIONSdatarq=30&--SECTIONSword=ww>.
Just be sure the tablet has a GPS chip, since very low-end Android
tablets don't have one, nor do Wi-Fi only iPads. You can buy a decent
Asus 7" tablet with a GPS for $50
<http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9561735>
just use a virtual credit card with a $1 limit and a one month
expiration date when you sign up with McAffee (required to get the
rebate). Intel, which owns McAffee, is trying to promote devices with
their processor inside, hence the large rebate.

 

[Bob F]

etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN.
The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other
recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so
it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

 

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:43:43 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>
wrote:

etpm@whidbey.com wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN.
The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other
recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so
it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

If they cannot license their cars without a firmware update then
they have suffered a loss and should of course be able to sue or
otherwise be remunerated. I was thinking about the car owners who live
in an area where cars are not smog checked. For example, I live in
Island County which is about 30 Miles from Seattle which is in King
County. This means I don't have to get my vehicles smog checked
whereas King County residents do. I don't know how CA does smog checks
but I suspect everyone who lives there has to get one. I can see that
I should have thought of that before I posted my comments.
I just heard on the news that there are about 450,000 vehicles in
the USA that have the dishonest firmware and that the EPA can fine VW
$37,500 for each car.
I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long. All sorts
of folks, from the upper management to the software writers, had to
know about and agree to actively participate in the fraud. I can see
how some would do so because of greed. And others may have been afraid
of losing their jobs. But I would think that many would refuse to
commit fraud and that some of them would spill the beans. I guess I'm
naive.
Eric