Electric Cars Not Yet Viable

[Martin Brown]

On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:07:30 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer
to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs, but then all
cars are obsolete, in cities anyway. But awwkk, I still prefer
top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you have any sense
Boston is trivial by comparison.

Tokyo is worse still. Back in the 1990's they converted all their taxis
to LNG because otherwise the air was unbreathable there.

My preferred mode of transport in central London is coach/train to
the general area, then folding bicycle to the specific
destinations. Not in other cities, though, since the traffic is
moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many cities for a
long time to come; see my previous posts with google streetviews
illustrating why. I think even Rick C might have got that message.

I was criticized for judging the UK without having experienced it.
Have you experienced "many cities"?

Yes - worldwide. And have lived in Tokyo and Brussels outside the UK.

It might work in Japan since you have to possess an off road parking
space before you can own a car. Owning one is unnecessary in Tokyo.

I think large parts of the world
will be happy to make the small changes required to accommodate EVs.

They are not small changes - especially in countries which don't have
profligate per capita energy consumption and electricity to spare.

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:07:30 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer
to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs, but then all
cars are obsolete, in cities anyway. But awwkk, I still prefer
top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you have any sense
Boston is trivial by comparison.

Tokyo is worse still. Back in the 1990's they converted all their taxis
to LNG because otherwise the air was unbreathable there.

My preferred mode of transport in central London is coach/train to
the general area, then folding bicycle to the specific
destinations. Not in other cities, though, since the traffic is
moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many cities for a
long time to come; see my previous posts with google streetviews
illustrating why. I think even Rick C might have got that message.

I was criticized for judging the UK without having experienced it.
Have you experienced "many cities"?

Yes - worldwide. And have lived in Tokyo and Brussels outside the UK.

It might work in Japan since you have to possess an off road parking
space before you can own a car. Owning one is unnecessary in Tokyo.

I think large parts of the world
will be happy to make the small changes required to accommodate EVs.

They are not small changes - especially in countries which don't have
profligate per capita energy consumption and electricity to spare.

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference. Tesla is a company. The railway bubble you talk about was an industry.

You are really reaching with this one.

--

Rick C.

++--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 4:18:07 PM UTC+2, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:07:30 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer
to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs, but then all
cars are obsolete, in cities anyway. But awwkk, I still prefer
top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you have any sense
Boston is trivial by comparison.

Tokyo is worse still. Back in the 1990's they converted all their taxis
to LNG because otherwise the air was unbreathable there.

My preferred mode of transport in central London is coach/train to
the general area, then folding bicycle to the specific
destinations. Not in other cities, though, since the traffic is
moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many cities for a
long time to come; see my previous posts with google streetviews
illustrating why. I think even Rick C might have got that message.

I was criticized for judging the UK without having experienced it.
Have you experienced "many cities"?

Yes - worldwide. And have lived in Tokyo and Brussels outside the UK.

It might work in Japan since you have to possess an off road parking
space before you can own a car. Owning one is unnecessary in Tokyo.

I think large parts of the world
will be happy to make the small changes required to accommodate EVs.

They are not small changes - especially in countries which don't have
profligate per capita energy consumption and electricity to spare.

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference. Tesla is a company. The railway bubble you talk about was an industry.

Wrong. The railway "entreprises" were a number of separate companies designed to service a number of different potential routes. Some of the companies did well, got bigger, merged an so forth until they all got nationalised in 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail

> You are really reaching with this one.

You really don't know what he was talking about - did you bother to look at the link he posted?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

onsdag den 3. juli 2019 kl. 07.15.05 UTC+2 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 03/07/19 00:39, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:07:46 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/06/19 21:44, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 9:23:57 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/06/19 13:30, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 5:30:48 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 21:08:07 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Cities like Washington, DC already have streets lined with parking
meters. They have more recently introduced kiosks where you pay for
anywhere on the block and put the receipt visible in the car, so a single
larger ugly thing rather than a number of smaller ugly things.

I'll bet few buyers have considered the implications if they live in a
conservation area where stuff like that would never get passed. Not sure if
you have those in America, but they're extremely common in the UK.

We have them, but people aren't anal about things like street lighting (is
that allowed in the conservation districts?) and other improvements to the
public areas. We tend to conserve the buildings, not the lifestyle..

They may or may not be extremely anal about changes;
it depends on the area, the changes and the local
authorities.

For example, a city near me states:

There are 33 conservation areas in Bristol. Conservation
areas have a special character and appearance and we aim
to preserve or enhance them. A conservation area might
have:
historic road patterns, plots and boundaries
characteristic building materials and construction techniques
historic building uses
green spaces
*trees and street furniture*
distinctive views

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/planning-and-building-regulations/conservation-areas

Note particularly the "trees and street furniture".

Do they allow autos? Seems like they should have been banned long ago when they were truly disgusting making noises, producing pollution and being a hazard to people and animals in the street. Oh, wait, they are still like that.


Now you are being silly. And I am agreeing with Cursitor Doom!

I charged at a gas station today and walked across the lot to a shopping center to have a bite. Walking in a gas station is much more dangerous than a shopping center. There is a lot higher density of traffic and when cars are turning into the station, they are still ramping down in speed and going too fast for the situation. I don't recall the name for this when people exit highways. In the gas station it is very similar.

And exactly how will that be different with EVs?



Seeing on my phone the battery was about ready, I returned to the car some 45 minutes later (barely enough time to eat) where I was amazed by the heat and stink that was coming from the cars at the pumps and the ones waiting in line.

There's no doubt about that! That merely makes alternatives
desirable, but doesn't affect the practical problems.

EVs tend to export their pollution generation to elsewhere.

I once did a back of the envelope calculation comparing the local
coal fired powerplant making electricity for a Tesla and a car running on gaoline. The chemical to mechanical energy efficiency came out about the same

but the powerplants exhaust is run through scrubbers and filters and isn't
output at ground level in the city

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 7:56:39 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 3. juli 2019 kl. 07.15.05 UTC+2 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 03/07/19 00:39, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:07:46 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/06/19 21:44, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 9:23:57 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/06/19 13:30, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 5:30:48 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 21:08:07 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Cities like Washington, DC already have streets lined with parking
meters. They have more recently introduced kiosks where you pay for
anywhere on the block and put the receipt visible in the car, so a single
larger ugly thing rather than a number of smaller ugly things.

I'll bet few buyers have considered the implications if they live in a
conservation area where stuff like that would never get passed. Not sure if
you have those in America, but they're extremely common in the UK.

We have them, but people aren't anal about things like street lighting (is
that allowed in the conservation districts?) and other improvements to the
public areas. We tend to conserve the buildings, not the lifestyle.

They may or may not be extremely anal about changes;
it depends on the area, the changes and the local
authorities.

For example, a city near me states:

There are 33 conservation areas in Bristol. Conservation
areas have a special character and appearance and we aim
to preserve or enhance them. A conservation area might
have:
historic road patterns, plots and boundaries
characteristic building materials and construction techniques
historic building uses
green spaces
*trees and street furniture*
distinctive views

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/planning-and-building-regulations/conservation-areas

Note particularly the "trees and street furniture".

Do they allow autos? Seems like they should have been banned long ago when they were truly disgusting making noises, producing pollution and being a hazard to people and animals in the street. Oh, wait, they are still like that.


Now you are being silly. And I am agreeing with Cursitor Doom!

I charged at a gas station today and walked across the lot to a shopping center to have a bite. Walking in a gas station is much more dangerous than a shopping center. There is a lot higher density of traffic and when cars are turning into the station, they are still ramping down in speed and going too fast for the situation. I don't recall the name for this when people exit highways. In the gas station it is very similar.

And exactly how will that be different with EVs?



Seeing on my phone the battery was about ready, I returned to the car some 45 minutes later (barely enough time to eat) where I was amazed by the heat and stink that was coming from the cars at the pumps and the ones waiting in line.

There's no doubt about that! That merely makes alternatives
desirable, but doesn't affect the practical problems.

EVs tend to export their pollution generation to elsewhere.


I once did a back of the envelope calculation comparing the local
coal fired powerplant making electricity for a Tesla and a car running on gaoline. The chemical to mechanical energy efficiency came out about the same

but the powerplants exhaust is run through scrubbers and filters and isn't
output at ground level in the city

Yeah, there was a thread here that did the same, but it didn't take into account everything. The refining process of petroleum to gasoline is itself a heavy consumer of petroleum for the energy to make it all happen.

The simple way to compare the two is by looking at the cost. Electricity to run an EV is much cheaper than the gas to do the same. So the electricity must be more efficient.

Toss in that EVs can be run from solar and it's a slam dunk.

--

Rick C.

++--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 6/30/19 6:47 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in news:WS%RE.1642$9F7.870@fx21.iad:

On 6/29/19 4:22 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 7:56:23 PM UTC+2, John Larkin
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:51:55 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT), omnilobe@gmail.com
wrote:

A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in than it is to fill a tank with gasoline. It is
safer than a self-driving auto-pilot tesla.

Is anyone doing that?

Around ten years ago I thought, if this EV thing continues,
then we'll have to go that way. Like a car wash where your car
is pulled in and the battery pack swapped.

Since a lot of the enviro-left live in cities where they park
on the street you'd think they would have thought about the
impossibility of charging "at home." Imagine what would happen
if there were charging stations all along the sidewalk, aside
from being ugly. Pay with a credit card and plug in, then the
next guy parks in between stations that are in use, so he
unplugs you and connects himself. Extension cords would have
become available by then.



https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-
scienti
sts-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

====

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by
2050 and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To
replace all UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not
including the LGV and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most
resource-frugal next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take
207,900 tonnes cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate
(LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, in
addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This represents, just under
two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the
entire world production of neodymium, three quarters the
world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s
copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply
of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require
the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual
cobalt needs of European industry.

=====

So what? Increase the demand, and the price goes up. Raise the
price and a whole lot of mines will open up again that got closed
down because their deposits weren't as easy to extract as those
at the happy few who were able to satisfy world demand when it
was lower.

When I was growing up in Tasmania, Tasmania's tin mines were
forever being opened up again when the tin price was high, and
closed down again as soon as there was enough supply to push the
tin price back down again.

Some people don't seem to understand how free markets work.


Each year, the world's gasoline-powered vehicles consume nearly
the entire world's annual production of gasoline


Lawn mowers, golf carts, agricultural machines... gasoline powered
aircraft...

Lots of other uses. Probably amounts to a percent or two.

Won't someone think of the go-karts!!

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 06:08:53 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/29/19 4:22 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 7:56:23 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:51:55 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT), omnilobe@gmail.com wrote:

A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in than it is to fill a tank with gasoline. It is
safer than a self-driving auto-pilot tesla.

Is anyone doing that?

Around ten years ago I thought, if this EV thing continues, then we'll
have to go that way. Like a car wash where your car is pulled in and the
battery pack swapped.

Since a lot of the enviro-left live in cities where they park on the
street you'd think they would have thought about the impossibility of
charging "at home." Imagine what would happen if there were charging
stations all along the sidewalk, aside from being ugly. Pay with a
credit card and plug in, then the next guy parks in between stations
that are in use, so he unplugs you and connects himself. Extension cords
would have become available by then.



https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

====

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050
and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To replace all
UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not including the LGV
and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most resource-frugal
next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take 207,900 tonnes cobalt,
264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate (LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of
neodymium and dysprosium, in addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This
represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt
production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three
quarters the world’s lithium production and at least half of the
world’s copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply
of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require the UK
to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of
European industry.

=====

So what? Increase the demand, and the price goes up. Raise the price and a whole lot of mines will open up again that got closed down because their deposits weren't as easy to extract as those at the happy few who were able to satisfy world demand when it was lower.

When I was growing up in Tasmania, Tasmania's tin mines were forever being opened up again when the tin price was high, and closed down again as soon as there was enough supply to push the tin price back down again.

Some people don't seem to understand how free markets work.


Each year, the world's gasoline-powered vehicles consume nearly the
entire world's annual production of gasoline

That's a remarkable coincidence.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Wed, 03 Jul 2019 18:23:06 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 06:08:53 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/29/19 4:22 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 7:56:23 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:51:55 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT), omnilobe@gmail.com wrote:

A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in than it is to fill a tank with gasoline. It is
safer than a self-driving auto-pilot tesla.

Is anyone doing that?

Around ten years ago I thought, if this EV thing continues, then we'll
have to go that way. Like a car wash where your car is pulled in and the
battery pack swapped.

Since a lot of the enviro-left live in cities where they park on the
street you'd think they would have thought about the impossibility of
charging "at home." Imagine what would happen if there were charging
stations all along the sidewalk, aside from being ugly. Pay with a
credit card and plug in, then the next guy parks in between stations
that are in use, so he unplugs you and connects himself. Extension cords
would have become available by then.



https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

====

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050
and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To replace all
UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not including the LGV
and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most resource-frugal
next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take 207,900 tonnes cobalt,
264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate (LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of
neodymium and dysprosium, in addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This
represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt
production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three
quarters the world’s lithium production and at least half of the
world’s copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply
of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require the UK
to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of
European industry.

=====

So what? Increase the demand, and the price goes up. Raise the price and a whole lot of mines will open up again that got closed down because their deposits weren't as easy to extract as those at the happy few who were able to satisfy world demand when it was lower.

When I was growing up in Tasmania, Tasmania's tin mines were forever being opened up again when the tin price was high, and closed down again as soon as there was enough supply to push the tin price back down again.

Some people don't seem to understand how free markets work.


Each year, the world's gasoline-powered vehicles consume nearly the
entire world's annual production of gasoline

That's a remarkable coincidence.

Well, chain saws and weed-whackers use some. Give Shortbit a break.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:56:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<8e392128-9dad-4709-ade6-de459421a594@googlegroups.com>:

I once did a back of the envelope calculation comparing the local
coal fired powerplant making electricity for a Tesla and a car running on gaoline.
The chemical to mechanical energy efficiency came out about the same

but
the powerplants exhaust is run through scrubbers and filters and isn't
output
at ground level in the city

last night I watched a program on 3sat TV here about electric cars.
Calculations show that those only become more climate friendly after 100,000 km
They also went into the lithium mining, and the damage done to the environment and people by that.
And then they went into the lithium battery recycling and showed that only 20% or so was recycled.

Very interesting.
And then there was a 45 minute documentary about bees (Bs) I learned a lot about that
and really for a moment I was thinking if those program makers read this newsgroup.

In German, Winfield should REALLY watch this, even just visual gives a lot of info already:
https://www.3sat.de/dokumentation/natur/unsere-bienen-rettung-doknatur-102.html

Cannot find the 'lectric car link.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 03/07/2019 15:18, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference. Tesla is a company. The railway bubble you talk about was an industry.

And what do you think each of the UK regional railway companies were?
They were public limited companies with shareholders.

The trend for unicorn companies that have never made a profit but always
promise "jam tomorrow" is a modern version of the same boom-bust game.

> You are really reaching with this one.

Am I? You choose to wallow in your wilful ignorance. Read the story.
Your failure to understand classic industrial history is astonishing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 04/07/19 08:38, Martin Brown wrote:

On 03/07/2019 15:18, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train.  Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference.  Tesla is a company.  The railway bubble you talk about
was an industry.

And what do you think each of the UK regional railway companies were?
They were public limited companies with shareholders.

The trend for unicorn companies that have never made a profit but always promise
"jam tomorrow" is a modern version of the same boom-bust game.

You are really reaching with this one.

Am I? You choose to wallow in your wilful ignorance. Read the story.
Your failure to understand classic industrial history is astonishing.

Just so, on all counts.

I understand and appreciate
- enthusiasm for new products and concepts
- ignorance, since we can't know everything
but as I point out to my daughter, "ignorance can be
cured but stupidity can't".

Now when somebody *repeatedly* ignores or denies solid
examples that conflict with their statements, we are left
in a quandary:
- is the person a fanboi or shill?
- is the person stupid?
- should we trust their *other* statements?
- are they promoting the indefensible?

Unfortunately Rick C has repeatedly ignored and denied
multiple solid "inconvenient truths" on this topic.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 3:23:16 AM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 06:08:53 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/29/19 4:22 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 7:56:23 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:51:55 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT), omnilobe@gmail.com wrote:

A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in than it is to fill a tank with gasoline. It is
safer than a self-driving auto-pilot tesla.

Is anyone doing that?

Around ten years ago I thought, if this EV thing continues, then we'll
have to go that way. Like a car wash where your car is pulled in and the
battery pack swapped.

Since a lot of the enviro-left live in cities where they park on the
street you'd think they would have thought about the impossibility of
charging "at home." Imagine what would happen if there were charging
stations all along the sidewalk, aside from being ugly. Pay with a
credit card and plug in, then the next guy parks in between stations
that are in use, so he unplugs you and connects himself. Extension cords
would have become available by then.



https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

===
The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050
and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To replace all
UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not including the LGV
and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most resource-frugal
next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take 207,900 tonnes cobalt,
264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate (LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of
neodymium and dysprosium, in addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This
represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt
production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three
quarters the world’s lithium production and at least half of the
world’s copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply
of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require the UK
to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of
European industry.

====
So what? Increase the demand, and the price goes up. Raise the price and a whole lot of mines will open up again that got closed down because their deposits weren't as easy to extract as those at the happy few who were able to satisfy world demand when it was lower.

When I was growing up in Tasmania, Tasmania's tin mines were forever being opened up again when the tin price was high, and closed down again as soon as there was enough supply to push the tin price back down again.

Some people don't seem to understand how free markets work.

Each year, the world's gasoline-powered vehicles consume nearly the
entire world's annual production of gasoline

That's a remarkable coincidence.

A coincidence that Cursitor Doom's heros at ZeroHedge managed to ignore when they proclaimed that electric cars were not yet viable.

Curistor Doom's brain is the non-viable device involved. ZeroHedge is presumably being paid by the fossil carbon extraction industry to spread the kinds of misinformation that keep the market for fossil-carbon fuel alive for as long as possible, until the unfortuate consequneces of burning it for fuel become obvious to even the Cursitor Doom's and John Larkin's of the world.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 10:15:03 AM UTC+2, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 04/07/19 08:38, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/07/2019 15:18, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train.  Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference.  Tesla is a company.  The railway bubble you talk about
was an industry.

And what do you think each of the UK regional railway companies were?
They were public limited companies with shareholders.

The trend for unicorn companies that have never made a profit but always promise
"jam tomorrow" is a modern version of the same boom-bust game.

You are really reaching with this one.

Am I? You choose to wallow in your wilful ignorance. Read the story.
Your failure to understand classic industrial history is astonishing.

Just so, on all counts.

I understand and appreciate
- enthusiasm for new products and concepts
- ignorance, since we can't know everything
but as I point out to my daughter, "ignorance can be
cured but stupidity can't".

Now when somebody *repeatedly* ignores or denies solid
examples that conflict with their statements, we are left
in a quandary:
- is the person a fanboi or shill?
- is the person stupid?
- should we trust their *other* statements?
- are they promoting the indefensible?

Unfortunately Rick C has repeatedly ignored and denied
multiple solid "inconvenient truths" on this topic.

Give him his due. He does pick up some new information, and while he denies other propositions, he does at least acknowledge that they exist.

John Larkin is a whole lot less eductatable, and Cursitor Doom and krw can't even imagine that they might ever be wrong.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 04/07/19 09:53, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 10:15:03 AM UTC+2, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 04/07/19 08:38, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/07/2019 15:18, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:37:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/06/2019 14:35, Rick C wrote:

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they
invented the Steam Engine and Train.  Had to make some changes to
accommodate that, eh?

Quite a few railway enterprises went spectacularly bust in the process
bankrupting their investors who used the 10% deposit scheme and found
themselves called upon to pay up the remaining 90% in the bust phase.

https://www.orbex.com/blog/en/2017/10/railway-mania-boom-bust

Be careful what you wish for. There are similarities with Tesla.

One huge difference.  Tesla is a company.  The railway bubble you talk about
was an industry.

And what do you think each of the UK regional railway companies were?
They were public limited companies with shareholders.

The trend for unicorn companies that have never made a profit but always promise
"jam tomorrow" is a modern version of the same boom-bust game.

You are really reaching with this one.

Am I? You choose to wallow in your wilful ignorance. Read the story.
Your failure to understand classic industrial history is astonishing.

Just so, on all counts.

I understand and appreciate
- enthusiasm for new products and concepts
- ignorance, since we can't know everything
but as I point out to my daughter, "ignorance can be
cured but stupidity can't".

Now when somebody *repeatedly* ignores or denies solid
examples that conflict with their statements, we are left
in a quandary:
- is the person a fanboi or shill?
- is the person stupid?
- should we trust their *other* statements?
- are they promoting the indefensible?

Unfortunately Rick C has repeatedly ignored and denied
multiple solid "inconvenient truths" on this topic.

Give him his due. He does pick up some new information, and while he denies other propositions, he does at least acknowledge that they exist.

Yes, but it took /too/ many messages and concrete
examples for him to start to acknowledge that where
he lives is /very/ different to other places.
It is being repeated with in this railway mania
subthread.

That doesn't engender trust in his other
statements; hence my /questions/ above.


> John Larkin is a whole lot less eductatable, and Cursitor Doom and krw can't even imagine that they might ever be wrong.

CD is indistinguishable from a troll, but even he
is occasionally right - just like a broken clock.
I even found myself agreeing with /one/ of his
points recently!

JL has significant strengths, but also has
significant blind spots in a way that I find
difficult to understand. In other words, I'll
take what he says seriously on /some/ subjects,
but definitely not others.

 

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
news:i6lqhepnp4j44pcj8mbvis275cmo5rl810@4ax.com:

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 06:08:53 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net
wrote:

On 6/29/19 4:22 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 7:56:23 PM UTC+2, John Larkin
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 07:51:55 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT), omnilobe@gmail.com
wrote:

A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in than it is to fill a tank with gasoline. It is
safer than a self-driving auto-pilot tesla.

Is anyone doing that?

Around ten years ago I thought, if this EV thing continues,
then we'll have to go that way. Like a car wash where your car
is pulled in and the battery pack swapped.

Since a lot of the enviro-left live in cities where they park
on the street you'd think they would have thought about the
impossibility of charging "at home." Imagine what would
happen if there were charging stations all along the sidewalk,
aside from being ugly. Pay with a credit card and plug in,
then the next guy parks in between stations that are in use,
so he unplugs you and connects himself. Extension cords
would have become available by then.



https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-
scient
ists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

====

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by
2050 and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To
replace all UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not
including the LGV and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most
resource-frugal next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take
207,900 tonnes cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate
(LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, in
addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This represents, just
under two times the total annual world cobalt production,
nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters
the world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s
copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply
of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require
the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual
cobalt needs of European industry.

=====

So what? Increase the demand, and the price goes up. Raise the
price and a whole lot of mines will open up again that got
closed down because their deposits weren't as easy to extract as
those at the happy few who were able to satisfy world demand
when it was lower.

When I was growing up in Tasmania, Tasmania's tin mines were
forever being opened up again when the tin price was high, and
closed down again as soon as there was enough supply to push the
tin price back down again.

Some people don't seem to understand how free markets work.


Each year, the world's gasoline-powered vehicles consume nearly
the entire world's annual production of gasoline

That's a remarkable coincidence.

Your choice of remark is almost as stupid as the claim itself.

 

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:8e392128-9dad-4709-ade6-de459421a594@googlegroups.com:

onsdag den 3. juli 2019 kl. 07.15.05 UTC+2 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 03/07/19 00:39, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:07:46 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 30/06/19 21:44, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 9:23:57 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 30/06/19 13:30, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 5:30:48 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 21:08:07 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Cities like Washington, DC already have streets lined
with parkin
g
meters. They have more recently introduced kiosks where
you pay
for
anywhere on the block and put the receipt visible in the
car, so
a single
larger ugly thing rather than a number of smaller ugly
things.

I'll bet few buyers have considered the implications if
they live
in a
conservation area where stuff like that would never get
passed. No
t sure if
you have those in America, but they're extremely common in
the UK.

We have them, but people aren't anal about things like
street light
ing (is
that allowed in the conservation districts?) and other
improvements
to the
public areas. We tend to conserve the buildings, not the
lifestyle
.

They may or may not be extremely anal about changes;
it depends on the area, the changes and the local
authorities.

For example, a city near me states:

There are 33 conservation areas in Bristol. Conservation
areas have a special character and appearance and we aim
to preserve or enhance them. A conservation area might
have:
historic road patterns, plots and boundaries
characteristic building materials and construction
techniques historic building uses
green spaces
*trees and street furniture*
distinctive views

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/planning-and-building-
regulations/
conserv
ation-areas

Note particularly the "trees and street furniture".

Do they allow autos? Seems like they should have been banned
long ag
o when they were truly disgusting making noises, producing
pollution and being a hazard to people and animals in the street.
Oh, wait, they are still like that.


Now you are being silly. And I am agreeing with Cursitor Doom!

I charged at a gas station today and walked across the lot to a
shoppin
g center to have a bite. Walking in a gas station is much more
dangerous than a shopping center. There is a lot higher density
of traffic and when cars are turning into the station, they are
still ramping down in speed and going too fast for the situation.
I don't recall the name for this when people exit highways. In
the gas station it is very similar.

And exactly how will that be different with EVs?



Seeing on my phone the battery was about ready, I returned to
the car s
ome 45 minutes later (barely enough time to eat) where I was
amazed by the heat and stink that was coming from the cars at the
pumps and the ones waiting in line.

There's no doubt about that! That merely makes alternatives
desirable, but doesn't affect the practical problems.

EVs tend to export their pollution generation to elsewhere.


I once did a back of the envelope calculation comparing the local
coal fired powerplant making electricity for a Tesla and a car
running on gaoline. The chemical to mechanical energy efficiency
came out about the same

but the powerplants exhaust is run through scrubbers and filters
and isn't output at ground level in the city

Yes, and much of what gets spent in generation is used on the grid
on a LOT of thing, not just charging a few cars up at night.

I'd say you very likely overestimated the actual cost of the juice
needed to charge a EV at whatever rate.

Oh and what the heck is GAoline?

Is that a new Lady Gaga invention?

 

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
news:f34dcf90-6624-4362-89c6-c6f388d4399f@googlegroups.com:

Fat chance of that. "Passenger car" are as much status symbols as
personal transport. The Tesla is styled to attract the kinds of
people who buy cars designed to make them look rich.

Again, like I said earlier. LEARN HOW TO READ.

THE CITY HAS NO ROADS. NOBODY WILL BE JUST DRIVING IN.

ZERO CARS get access.

You starting to get up to speed yet? Maybe you should read the
speculation post again.

 

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
news:f34dcf90-6624-4362-89c6-c6f388d4399f@googlegroups.com:

An unnecessary - and expensive - indulgence in high tech for the
sake of high tech.

Another stupid remark. We are talking about a city with no roads
like you see now. No ground. It is an elevated city.

MY city will not have car roaming around, much less trucks.

You have no clue and putting price tags on land speculation is just
plain idiotic.

 

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
news:f34dcf90-6624-4362-89c6-c6f388d4399f@googlegroups.com:

50 10k Lb trailers cost more to pull than 13 40k Lb trailers
cost.

So it needs to be able to tractor a 40,000 Lb trailer, just
like we
currently do.

But the prime mover only needs to tractor the load between
charging stations or battery swap station. Range is a negotiable
feature.

You are an idiot with that one. One will NOT be charging their
tractor trailer trucks overnight, AND as I stated, the difference is
unacceptable. I need a truck that can pull the load described AND
do so for 2000 miles at a time AND NOT have a 1.5 day wait between
segments of a long haul.

You really appear to know absolutely nothing about trucking.

And no, battery swap stations are not feasible aither.

 

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in news:f34dcf90-6624-4362-
89c6-c6f388d4399f@googlegroups.com:

We won't evolve alternative technologies. They already exist.

I see that you conveniently left out the 'evolve INTO' aspect.

We already have many alternate technologies. EVOLVING INTO THEM,
does NOT happen overnight as you say, nor can it do so. And I never
said that we need to evolve the technology itself.

You apparently need to learn to read, or learn to refrain from
drinking when you do. Or maybe you need glasses. Regardless, you
missed that one or deliberately left out to difference made by my
wording using it. "EVOLVE INTO" is NOT "evolve" as you put it,
which infers that I said we need to invent.

Your manipulations of my words makes me want to put you back into
the place some of these others have binned you in. You will very
likely only get one more chance.

I was being nice to you as you do possess some intelligence.
Apparently, however, that does not involve you refraining from
petty, unbecoming vocabulary in your non technical responses to
folks.