EAGLE Netlist conversion

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:34:25 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Nico Coesel wrote:

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:38:35 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the
whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This
old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. But you know how
it is, when you get used to a tool no matter how ancient you don't want
to miss it. Just as I still miss that wonderful Fahrvergnuegen of my
first car...

Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly
also came with a RS232 serial port. Neither recognized that anything
"new" was connected nor could I find any setup in Windows (one is XP,
the other NT/2000). I am sure I can dig out the old mouse drivers but
they are from the days when Windows were still those glass thingies that
you use Windex on.

How do you get an old serial port mouse working on a "modern" laptop?

Is it Logitech?

It is.

Try their site.

Tried that. That model is long gone from there. I bet if I'd call they'd
suggest to try the Smithsonian museum ...

... It ought to work as an ordinary serial mouse PROVIDED you INSTALL it.

Well, on the risk of totally embarrassing myself here, how do I do that
in them thar newfangled Windozes?

Doesn't it recognise it when it is attached to the computer when it
starts? I recall having used a serial mouse less than 2 years ago with
an Win2000 machine. It was detected automatically during boot. Are you
sure the trackball is working and the serial ports are enabled?

No. Yes. Yes.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Eeyore · Jan 21, 2007

Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Graham

Joerg · Jan 21, 2007

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:55:07 -0800, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

I think the main problem you have is that the mouse _may_ require 12V.

I'm not quite sure how to tell without frying it :-(

Maybe apply 6V and see what comes out when you roll the ball... nada
means it needs 12V ??

Well, running a terminal on the old PC gives gibberish when rolling the
mouse. Doing that on the laptop, zilch.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Jan 21, 2007

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:38:55 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Robert wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
newsKvsh.2789$O02.694@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

Robert wrote:

[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

--
Regards, Joerg

Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm

That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.

Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

My new Logitech wireless mouse has been going for six months without a
battery change.

It goes into sleep mode when no motion is detected.

Does it need some kind of USB receiver that pokes out the PC? Maybe I
could buy one and tranfer the innards over into the old Trackman.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 01:14:32 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:38:55 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Robert wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
newsKvsh.2789$O02.694@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

Robert wrote:

[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

--
Regards, Joerg

Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm

That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.

Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

My new Logitech wireless mouse has been going for six months without a
battery change.

It goes into sleep mode when no motion is detected.

Does it need some kind of USB receiver that pokes out the PC? Maybe I
could buy one and tranfer the innards over into the old Trackman.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jan 21, 2007

Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Eeyore · Jan 21, 2007

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

Graham

Joerg · Jan 21, 2007

Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

Only if you find a PS/2 plug. Now I can easily find tractor glow plugs
here in town, and horse feed, and hydraulic fluid, and... IOW this ain't
the big city.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Eeyore · Jan 21, 2007

Joerg wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

Only if you find a PS/2 plug. Now I can easily find tractor glow plugs
here in town, and horse feed, and hydraulic fluid, and... IOW this ain't
the big city.

Ebay. Everything you need is there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-2-Belkin-PS-2-Mouse-Keyboard-Extention-Cables_W0QQitemZ180071054165QQihZ008QQcategoryZ45340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cut the female end off and wire it to a DB-9.

And here's the USB adaptor
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-PS-2-to-USB-Converter-Adapter-Cable-CL03_W0QQitemZ230080138052QQihZ013QQcategoryZ31531QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Interface standard: USB 1.1 or USB 2.0
Converts two PS2 devices such as Keyboard & Mouse to one USB port
No external power needed
No software driver required
Brand new, never used
System requirement: Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP

What more do you want ?

Many more vendors to choose from here.
http://computers.search.ebay.com/ps2-cable_Computers-Networking_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQsacatZ58058

Graham

Michael Schwingen · Jan 21, 2007

In article <45B2C763.908CA808@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

That works only if the trackball already supports PS/2. Many later Logitech
devices did - the PS/2 signals are on unused pins in the DB9 connector, and
the DB9-to-PS/2-adapter is a simple passive adapter. However, these adapters
do not work with "true" serial mice that *only* support RS232.

The same is true for USB mice that are shipped with a USB-to-PS/2-adapter:
the mouse supports both protocols, the adapter that is shipped with the
mouse is passive. Active adapters are a bit more difficult to find, but
they exist.

cu
Michael
--
Some people have no respect of age unless it is bottled.

Eeyore · Jan 21, 2007

Michael Schwingen wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

That works only if the trackball already supports PS/2. Many later Logitech
devices did - the PS/2 signals are on unused pins in the DB9 connector, and
the DB9-to-PS/2-adapter is a simple passive adapter. However, these adapters
do not work with "true" serial mice that *only* support RS232.

I see. I often wondered how they worked.

The same is true for USB mice that are shipped with a USB-to-PS/2-adapter:
the mouse supports both protocols, the adapter that is shipped with the
mouse is passive. Active adapters are a bit more difficult to find, but
they exist.

Intruiging.

Graham

Jan 21, 2007

Joerg skrev:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On 21 Jan 2007 08:17:51 -0800, langwadt@ieee.org wrote:

Joerg skrev:
Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

On a laptop the available USB current is limited, but still might be
around 100mA.

Don't know what's legal from PS/2.

Why not just a battery pack? Joerg is making the problem too
complicated.

I'm not a "gamer", but what _is_ a game port? How does it behave?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On 21 Jan 2007 08:17:51 -0800, langwadt@ieee.org wrote:

Joerg skrev:
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

I think the problem is that the track-ball needs 12V, so you need an
interface:

(laptop) 6V data <=> 12V data (track-ball with 12VDC supply)

Joerg needs to measure what RS232 levels exist on his new laptop, then
measure the trackball levels with one of his old machines.

Then we can concoct an interface with a snap of the fingers.

Of course this episode has already cost Joerg $1K in wasted time spent
scratching his ... ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jan 21, 2007

Jim Thompson skrev:

On 21 Jan 2007 08:17:51 -0800, langwadt@ieee.org wrote:

Joerg skrev:
Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

On a laptop the available USB current is limited, but still might be
around 100mA.

USB is minimum and default 100mA, a device can ask for up to 500mA

Don't know what's legal from PS/2.

from what I can find 275mA

Why not just a battery pack? Joerg is making the problem too
complicated.

carrying around a battary pack is a bit annoying when you already have
a battery and probably the charger for the laptop

I'm not a "gamer", but what _is_ a game port? How does it behave?

+5V, GND, two switches and two potmeter inputs, don't know ho much
current
you can expect. But you won't find one on many laptops.

-Lasse

Michael A. Terrell · Jan 21, 2007

Jim Thompson wrote:

Mine is "Trespassers Will Be Violated" ;-)

What happened to your "Trespassers Will Be Prostituted" sign?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:06:02 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Mine is "Trespassers Will Be Violated" ;-)

What happened to your "Trespassers Will Be Prostituted" sign?

I don't remember that one. Maybe it was John Fields ?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Jan 21, 2007

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:32:36 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On 21 Jan 2007 08:17:51 -0800, langwadt@ieee.org wrote:

Joerg skrev:
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

I think the problem is that the track-ball needs 12V, so you need an
interface:

(laptop) 6V data <=> 12V data (track-ball with 12VDC supply)

Joerg needs to measure what RS232 levels exist on his new laptop, then
measure the trackball levels with one of his old machines.

Then we can concoct an interface with a snap of the fingers.

Of course this episode has already cost Joerg $1K in wasted time spent
scratching his ... ;-)

...Jim Thompson

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jan 21, 2007

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 21 Jan 2007 08:17:51 -0800, langwadt@ieee.org wrote:

Joerg skrev:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

Lasse, that's a good idea.

I think the problem is that the track-ball needs 12V, so you need an
interface:

(laptop) 6V data <=> 12V data (track-ball with 12VDC supply)

Joerg needs to measure what RS232 levels exist on his new laptop, then
measure the trackball levels with one of his old machines.

As mentioned above, about 6V.

Then we can concoct an interface with a snap of the fingers.

Of course this episode has already cost Joerg $1K in wasted time spent
scratching his ... ;-)

Sometimes I have to wind down from analog design (I mean the real tough
stuff) and do something non-monetary. Including restoring an old tube
radio for a couple of hours. Which BTW now works for about 15 years. Or
spend 20 hard hours on an old Hammond. It was neglected and totally
seized up when we got it. But now my office time is enhanced by my wife
playing "Oh when the Saints..." and stuff like that on the old Hammond.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Jan 24, 2007

jasen wrote:

On 2007-01-21, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

Lasse, that's a good idea.

As mentioned above, about 6V.

yeah, but what is it under load, and how does that compare withj what the
trackball gets when it's connected to the reguular PC.

maybe 5V from the ps/2 socket would be enough for it.

It didn't sag when connecting the trackball. But that might be because
its regulator is out of regulation and doesn't draw much current.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

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