Driver to drive?

[Thomas]

Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

Thomas

 

[Jim Stewart]

Thomas wrote:

Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

City of Davis, Yolo County, California.

I drew up plans, got them stamped and approved
by the city planning department, pulled 6-3 cable
from a 50 ampere breaker in the outside service
entrance panel to the garage where I installed a
subpanel, then installed lamps, 120 outlets and
240 outlets out of the subpanel. Before covering
anything, I called the city building inspector
and he came out, compared it to the drawing and
signed it all off. He said that I must have done
it myself because it was too neat for an electrician.

Disclaimer - I am not a licensed electrician, but
I can read the code and do neater work than one.

 

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:33:45 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <eke855t5enhm9d6buf41le0epm925tv2et@4ax.com>, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:00:56 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Ego4m.11481$8P7.5475@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." =
rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message=20
news:2Qn4m.6913$iz2.1189@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...

Nonsense. There are *many* areas of the U.S. in which there is *no*=20
regulation
of the electrical trade.

Such as....?=20

Don't have much experience living in rural areas, do you?

That doesn't mean that the rules don't exist, it means that the
enforcement is lax. OSHA and RUS still exist.

Guess you don't have much experience living in rural areas either. There are
many places that have no electrical code whatsoever.

I believe the standard electrical code is in effect, as a minimum,
everywhere in Canada and the USA. Some areas have standards that
excede the standard code, and in some areas there is little or no
enforcement - making the law toothless - but still law.

There are areas with NO zoning, and no permits required.
There are likely still areas where trade licencing is not mandatory.
Code still applies. Enforcement likely only by the courts in case of
death or financial loss if something goes wrong.

 

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:09:08 -0600, "SteveB" <oldfart@deepends.com>
wrote:

"Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad...

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:0vn7559mbpkfs57m6sc0v55jr76fo0pd63@4ax.com...

I'm still waiting for you to back up your remarks. I'll accept further
personal attacks on your part as your acknowledgment that you spoke
without
first knowing the facts.

I don't have to. It's clear that you can't back up your assertion
that *every* jurisdiction requires licensed electricians, which is
clearly laughable.

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to
show any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

Uh, on private property where the owner wants to do his own work, or have
someone do it? I am having several things installed right now as we speak.
Ceiling fans on the patio, three motion lights, four multigang outlets. All
in conduit, and all would pass an inspection, and the local small town
inspector even is a friend of mine who dines with us about six times a year,
and sees all the new work. The work is being done by a good friend of the
inspector, although not a licensed electrician. As a backup, I do have a 37
year union electrician who does look at things (or does the work when he
comes to visit), and he'll be here this weekend to go bass fishing, and will
be able to look at everything, as it is not covered and finished yet.

Upon sale, copies of permits may be requested by anal buyers, but few can be
provided. Unless the job was just absolutely sloppy, most work is passed as
is. Or the house inspector team makes note of it. There is a lot of sloppy
work out there that is bought and sold in the real estate market every day.
And all was done without licenses.

You would be more accurate saying NOT all was done without licences.
I've seen a lot of sloppy work done by licenced tradesmen as well.
Also some VERY nice work done by unlicienced workers.

You seem to think that there is some sort of electrical police that enforce
the rules to a T in every situation.

Which planet are you from?

Steve

 

[Jamie]

Doug Miller wrote:

In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...

In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?


The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.
How ever, it is most likely originating from a 3 phase source via a

single phase xformer.

 

[Jamie]

Tim Shoppa wrote:

On Jul 5, 2:40 am, John E. <incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.


From my past experience in industrial environments, it's 100%
guaranteed that the electrician will wire the 3-phase feeds wrong.
Either the phases will be out of sequence (motor spins backwards), or
it'll be Delta instead of Wye, or wrong voltages, or something. It has
absolutely nothing to do with how much specifying you try, it'll get
hooked up wrong every single time.

Tim.
Well then stop hiring illegal wet backs!

 

[Rich.]

"Thomas" <royalheart39@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:7R75m.57138$K24.54152@newsfe19.iad...

Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

Thomas

http://www.jaspercountysc.org/_fileUploads/UnlicensedResidentialBuildersDisclosureStatement.pdf
or:
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:QqbZwdvIYakJ:www.jaspercountysc.org/_fileUploads/UnlicensedResidentialBuildersDisclosureStatement.pdf

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:39:31 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...

In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?


The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.
How ever, it is most likely originating from a 3 phase source via a
single phase xformer.

What's that got to do with the price of oats in China?

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:04:14 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:09:08 -0600, "SteveB" <oldfart@deepends.com
wrote:


"Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad...

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:0vn7559mbpkfs57m6sc0v55jr76fo0pd63@4ax.com...

I'm still waiting for you to back up your remarks. I'll accept further
personal attacks on your part as your acknowledgment that you spoke
without
first knowing the facts.

I don't have to. It's clear that you can't back up your assertion
that *every* jurisdiction requires licensed electricians, which is
clearly laughable.

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to
show any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

Uh, on private property where the owner wants to do his own work, or have
someone do it? I am having several things installed right now as we speak.
Ceiling fans on the patio, three motion lights, four multigang outlets. All
in conduit, and all would pass an inspection, and the local small town
inspector even is a friend of mine who dines with us about six times a year,
and sees all the new work. The work is being done by a good friend of the
inspector, although not a licensed electrician. As a backup, I do have a 37
year union electrician who does look at things (or does the work when he
comes to visit), and he'll be here this weekend to go bass fishing, and will
be able to look at everything, as it is not covered and finished yet.

Upon sale, copies of permits may be requested by anal buyers, but few can be
provided. Unless the job was just absolutely sloppy, most work is passed as
is. Or the house inspector team makes note of it. There is a lot of sloppy
work out there that is bought and sold in the real estate market every day.
And all was done without licenses.

You would be more accurate saying NOT all was done without licences.
I've seen a lot of sloppy work done by licenced tradesmen as well.

You should see the crap the electricians pulled in my last two houses!
I suspect this one isn't any better, though haven't been in it long
enough to find too much (YOY did they use 14/2?).

Also some VERY nice work done by unlicienced workers.

The inspector was quite impressed with the work I did on a garage
twentyish years ago. He was a little bit surprised that nothing
worked when he walked in. I didn't have a permit, so the sub was shut
off at the main when I wasn't actively working.

You seem to think that there is some sort of electrical police that enforce
the rules to a T in every situation.

Which planet are you from?

Planet Union Sparky.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:51:06 -0700, Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com>
wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

City of Davis, Yolo County, California.

I drew up plans, got them stamped and approved
by the city planning department, pulled 6-3 cable
from a 50 ampere breaker in the outside service
entrance panel to the garage where I installed a
subpanel, then installed lamps, 120 outlets and
240 outlets out of the subpanel. Before covering
anything, I called the city building inspector
and he came out, compared it to the drawing and
signed it all off. He said that I must have done
it myself because it was too neat for an electrician.

Disclaimer - I am not a licensed electrician, but
I can read the code and do neater work than one.

Indeed, because we can spend time doing things right.

 

[krw]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:44:07 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:29:16 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:14:23 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:08:45 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:10:06 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:57:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:00:09 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

Does a Jaquard loom count? Oh, 1950s, not 1750s. ;-)

Did it have a $4000 controller board? ;-)

In 2009 dollars, quite likely.

Well, Zero bit processors were quite expensive.

Jacquard looms are pretty impressive things to watch. ...and almost
300 years old. Not "zero bits" at all.


They operated from punched cards for the weave patterns, and had zero
bits of computer processing power.

They are CNC machines. CNC machines don't need to "process" anything.
And they do NOT need to be Binary Digital, or Hexidecimal.

Depends on your definition of binary. Certainly paper tape and octal
computers (DECs) worked. OTOH, I can't think of an instance of an
analog CNC machine.
Notice no comma between binary and digital - so "binary digital", not
"binary", or "digital"

You make no sense, then. Hexadecimal is a special case, or expression
of binary. Paper tape is binary, at least in most senses.

Analog CNC could be done with "voice coil" actuators with servo
feedback. MUCH faster than servo-motor devices for low-power
applications - which is why they have replaced servo motors for
disk-drive head positioners and lazer focusing etc.

Bet the lazer focussing on a CNC laser cutter has been done "analog"
by someone somewhere.

I doubt that function is (user) programmable, so not in any way C*C.

 

[Jamie]

krw wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:39:31 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:


In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...


In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:



The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?


The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.

How ever, it is most likely originating from a 3 phase source via a
single phase xformer.


What's that got to do with the price of oats in China?

I don't know about oats, but I hear the price of rice is up!

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <Ap95m.28165$ob.940@newsfe13.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Thomas" <royalheart39@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:7R75m.57138$K24.54152@newsfe19.iad...
Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

Thomas

http://www.jaspercountysc.org/_fileUploads/UnlicensedResidentialBuildersDisclos
ureStatement.pdf

So where does that say that what he did was illegal?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <5j5a559qtpofgeqilaf8n1k7btd73pbs7c@4ax.com>, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I believe the standard electrical code is in effect, as a minimum,
everywhere in Canada and the USA.

You believe incorrectly.

Some areas have standards that
excede the standard code, and in some areas there is little or no
enforcement - making the law toothless - but still law.

And in many areas, the Code has *not* been adopted by local ordinance and
therefore is not law.

There are areas with NO zoning, and no permits required.
There are likely still areas where trade licencing is not mandatory.
Code still applies.

Code applies *only* if it has been adopted as law by the relevant
jurisdiction.

 

[RoyLFuchs]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:02:12 -0700, RoyLFuchs
<RoyLFuchs@urfargingicehole.org> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:16:44 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:

Please add "-- " against the left hand edge here. It is called a "Sig
seperator" and is considered polite.


He is a retarded troll, and he deliberately refrains from treating the
crap he posts at the of the crap he posts as a sig.
^
end

 

[life imitates life]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:46:16 -0400, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

only legal for him to do so if a homeowners permit is pulled

Some jurisdictions do not even have any such animal as a "homeowner's
permit".

In Ohio, for example, I would have to get a "building permit" to make
an add on to my structure or to add a permanent building on my property.

I do not know, however, what the requirements are for any electrical
work done in said project.

Regardless, to be legal, ALL has to be inspected.

 

[Mycelium]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:51:06 -0700, Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com>
wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Rich. wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that
licenses are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch,
zip to show any one place in this country where a license is not
required to do electrical work.

Jasper County, South Carolina, USA.

I am not a licensed electrician.

I installed a 400A service in the house I am RENTING (so, therefore, I
am NOT the owner). I secured a permit as the local utility will not
connect to the meter until the go ahead from the building inspector is
given to it. This service was inspected by my county inspector and
passed with flying colors (he was very impressed with the TWO GEs
(grounding electrodes aka ground rods) I (properly) installed).

So the above is proof that one does not need to be licensed. (Albeit my
work was inspected by my local AHJ.)

City of Davis, Yolo County, California.

I drew up plans, got them stamped and approved
by the city planning department, pulled 6-3 cable
from a 50 ampere breaker in the outside service
entrance panel to the garage where I installed a
subpanel, then installed lamps, 120 outlets and
240 outlets out of the subpanel. Before covering
anything, I called the city building inspector
and he came out, compared it to the drawing and
signed it all off. He said that I must have done
it myself because it was too neat for an electrician.

Disclaimer - I am not a licensed electrician, but
I can read the code and do neater work than one.

Good appearances are great, but one would hope that you are aware that
what really matters is how well each and every termination was performed.

The neat routing and good appearance lends toward that knowledge, and
normally indicates a strong and 'proper' training at some point of some
degree, like prior exposure to military cabling, wiring, and routing
techniques or the like.

If you have no training at all and did things that well, such that the
inspector made that comment, then I would say that you have lived your
entire life as a very observant creature that catches all the details of
practically any system you encounter, be it mechanically oriented or
otherwise.

 

[Mycelium]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:45:13 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

You make no sense, then. Hexadecimal is a special case, or expression
of binary. Paper tape is binary, at least in most senses.

Paper tape is absolutely binary. Unless you live in Florida, then, it
is tri-state, depending on the 'chad factor'.

 

[Thomas]

Jim Stewart wrote:

He said that I must have done

it myself because it was too neat for an electrician.

Disclaimer - I am not a licensed electrician, but
I can read the code and do neater work than one.

Exactly. I have a copy of NFPA 70, NEC 2008. I may not be licensed
either, but as you so eloquently put it, I can read the code. I can also
do MUCH neater work than a licensed electrician. This is mainly because
I don't work balls to the wall on my own house, but rather take that
extra bit of time and do it right, and do it neat.

I take the time to properly plan out the job, be it electrical,
plumbing, structural, etc. Remember the Seven Ps.

Again, JCBD has ZERO problems with my NOT being the owner of the
property and my NOT being licensed in any trade.

Thomas

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:51:13 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:39:31 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:


In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...


In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:



The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?


The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.

How ever, it is most likely originating from a 3 phase source via a
single phase xformer.


What's that got to do with the price of oats in China?

I don't know about oats, but I hear the price of rice is up!

I figured that you were talking through your ass again.