Driver to drive?

[Doug Miller]

In article <U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law.

Required by law in the places whose laws you have posted. This is not proof
that all, or even any, other jurisdictions have the same laws.

To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to show
any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

Think about that one a minute, willya? If there is no law, how is he going to
post it?

 

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:29:16 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:14:23 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:08:45 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:10:06 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:57:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:00:09 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

Does a Jaquard loom count? Oh, 1950s, not 1750s. ;-)

Did it have a $4000 controller board? ;-)

In 2009 dollars, quite likely.

Well, Zero bit processors were quite expensive.

Jacquard looms are pretty impressive things to watch. ...and almost
300 years old. Not "zero bits" at all.


They operated from punched cards for the weave patterns, and had zero
bits of computer processing power.

They are CNC machines. CNC machines don't need to "process" anything.
And they do NOT need to be Binary Digital, or Hexidecimal.

Depends on your definition of binary. Certainly paper tape and octal
computers (DECs) worked. OTOH, I can't think of an instance of an
analog CNC machine.
Notice no comma between binary and digital - so "binary digital", not

"binary", or "digital"

Analog CNC could be done with "voice coil" actuators with servo
feedback. MUCH faster than servo-motor devices for low-power
applications - which is why they have replaced servo motors for
disk-drive head positioners and lazer focusing etc.

Bet the lazer focussing on a CNC laser cutter has been done "analog"
by someone somewhere.

 

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:48:29 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:47:57 -0700, jk <klessig@suddenlink.net> wrote:

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
(acting like the d-s he accuses others of)




The stipulation was "one side" and "the other side", which sounds to me
like the windings of a single center tapped transformer, so NO, there is
NO way that there could be that much of a variance between the two,
dipshit.


So you think an entire town is fed from not just one substation, but
one (coutem 1) SINGLE phase transformer??

You're an idiot. READ his post. He was talking about the two sides of
HIS service, idiot.

get real. [You don't even
generally get, two 240 v sources from a singe ph XF anyway, but lets
ignore that]

You're an idiot.

But even still, you you can have that much variation, especially if
measured at two different times, with different loading, different MV
source voltage, and different connection impedance.
Go back to smoking your own pipe

Read either side of your house service at ANY time and the two voltages
will be right on each other with perhaps a volt or two variance between
them. Maybe when the power company puts too many houses on the same
transformer, you could see a variance that is greater if the other houses
are all loaded up on one side, but the likelihood id very low.

And reading them one right after the other IS "at the same time" for
this purpose, ya friggin dope!

Of course taking a reading a day later could result in a differing
voltage.

You have about as much common sense as a freshly laid turd.

Difference between the 2 sides of a residential (split phase, or
whatever you want to call the American 115/230 volt system) is NOT
uncommon, and is virtually always caused bu a bad neutral connection
somewhere.

 

[krw]

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:56:04 -0400, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net>
wrote:

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:0vn7559mbpkfs57m6sc0v55jr76fo0pd63@4ax.com...

I'm still waiting for you to back up your remarks. I'll accept further
personal attacks on your part as your acknowledgment that you spoke
without
first knowing the facts.

I don't have to. It's clear that you can't back up your assertion
that *every* jurisdiction requires licensed electricians, which is
clearly laughable.

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to show
any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

I have never doubted that licensing is *sometimes* required. You have
shown a couple of examples where it is. That is all.

 

[krw]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:15:00 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:57:14 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:48:29 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:08:45 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:10:06 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:57:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:00:09 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

Does a Jaquard loom count? Oh, 1950s, not 1750s. ;-)

Did it have a $4000 controller board? ;-)

In 2009 dollars, quite likely.

Well, Zero bit processors were quite expensive.

Jacquard looms are pretty impressive things to watch. ...and almost
300 years old. Not "zero bits" at all.


They operated from punched cards for the weave patterns, and had zero
bits of computer processing power.

They are CNC machines. CNC machines don't need to "process" anything.

Yes, they do. The 'run' (read process, idiot) a program. That IS
processing.

Playing a recording is not "processing", DimBulb.


If it interprets instructions and performs tasks and functions based on
those instructions, that is a program, and the operation of the machine
while executing it, regardless of any simplificatio0n a little retarded
twit like you comes up with, IS PROCESSING. It matters not where the
instructions are derived or 'read' from, nor what they get 'read' into.

Go back to sleep, AlwaysWrong.

Even early CNC machines that had no computer whatsoever in them
PROCESSED the program instructions, you total retard.

We all know you're illiterate, DimBulb. You don't have to prove it
every day.

You lose, again... as usual.

Wrong again, AlwaysWrong.

 

[JosephKK]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:59:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:42:41 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:06:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

He must not get out much....shrug.

You two are Usenet retards for being presumptuous little adolescent
acting twits. But we already knew that about you both.

And in most of California..that means far far different requirements
..legally.. than does hardwiring.

Gunner

California uses the NEC, you fucking retard.

Of course it is different. And it isn't "most of California" It is ALL
of Cali. you retarded twit.

Really? Dayam. I use the NEC as well. The only thing is..most of
California didnt use the NEC to make all the same laws.

But then...you are far far too ignorant to fathom that bit of data.

Im about to put you in the Bozos kill file as you are becoming an
obnoxious little turd.

Gunner

Never bother announcing KF. Just do it and grin at the reduction of
creep troll irritation.

Please add "-- " against the left hand edge here. It is called a "Sig

seperator" and is considered polite.

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[JosephKK]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:28:57 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Modern CNC is done under computer control. Punched paper tape was a
pain in the ass, but it worked until computers became cheap enough to
replace punched tape readers.

Sure, but the computer isn't much more than a (card/tape) reader.

Hell, a decent PLC can store acceleration and velocity parameters and

apply them in real time. So can typical CNC machines, not to mention
tool changes and many other things. Moreover many CNC machines
support a variety of measurement tools as well.

The machines can store more commands, though.


It was a play on words.

Ok, but you could have said it wasn't run by a two-bit operating
system.


With dimbulb in the thread? We would have had at least 100 of his
mindless rants that there never were any two bit processors, and if it
doesn't run Vista, bla, bla bla....

 

[JosephKK]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:00:56 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Ego4m.11481$8P7.5475@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:2Qn4m.6913$iz2.1189@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...

Nonsense. There are *many* areas of the U.S. in which there is *no*
regulation
of the electrical trade.

Such as....?

Don't have much experience living in rural areas, do you?

That doesn't mean that the rules don't exist, it means that the
enforcement is lax. OSHA and RUS still exist.

 

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...

In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?

Harold

 

[RoyLFuchs]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:16:44 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Please add "-- " against the left hand edge here. It is called a "Sig
seperator" and is considered polite.

He is a retarded troll, and he deliberately refrains from treating the
crap he posts at the of the crap he posts as a sig.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <fna855lf11o2ujmltjgslq880kgern4o6l@4ax.com>, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:

Please add "-- " against the left hand edge here. It is called a "Sig
seperator" and is considered polite.

To be more specific: hyphen, hyphen, space, newline.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <eke855t5enhm9d6buf41le0epm925tv2et@4ax.com>, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:00:56 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Ego4m.11481$8P7.5475@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." =
rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message=20
news:2Qn4m.6913$iz2.1189@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...

Nonsense. There are *many* areas of the U.S. in which there is *no*=20
regulation
of the electrical trade.

Such as....?=20

Don't have much experience living in rural areas, do you?

That doesn't mean that the rules don't exist, it means that the
enforcement is lax. OSHA and RUS still exist.

Guess you don't have much experience living in rural areas either. There are
many places that have no electrical code whatsoever.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.

Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.

Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?

The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.

 

[ingvald44]

Doug Miller wrote:

In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:
"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:AI14m.2332$Wj7.1124@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
In article <VWY3m.1928$cW.1327@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.
Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.
Yes, it could be, but we're talking about industrial machinery, generally
powered by three phase. I have serious doubts that a single phase CNC
would contain a $4,000 board when you can buy the machines for that amount
of money.

I'm convinced the wiring in question is three phase. The only remaining
question is whether it's delta or wye. Considering wye reads 208 volts leg
to leg, I'm pretty sure its delta. You?

The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof of
3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my residential
service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.
What is the voltage at the old location? If it is 240 then there is no

issue with anything the electrician did...

 

[SteveB]

"Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad...

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:0vn7559mbpkfs57m6sc0v55jr76fo0pd63@4ax.com...

I'm still waiting for you to back up your remarks. I'll accept further
personal attacks on your part as your acknowledgment that you spoke
without
first knowing the facts.

I don't have to. It's clear that you can't back up your assertion
that *every* jurisdiction requires licensed electricians, which is
clearly laughable.

I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law. To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to
show any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

Uh, on private property where the owner wants to do his own work, or have
someone do it? I am having several things installed right now as we speak.
Ceiling fans on the patio, three motion lights, four multigang outlets. All
in conduit, and all would pass an inspection, and the local small town
inspector even is a friend of mine who dines with us about six times a year,
and sees all the new work. The work is being done by a good friend of the
inspector, although not a licensed electrician. As a backup, I do have a 37
year union electrician who does look at things (or does the work when he
comes to visit), and he'll be here this weekend to go bass fishing, and will
be able to look at everything, as it is not covered and finished yet.

Upon sale, copies of permits may be requested by anal buyers, but few can be
provided. Unless the job was just absolutely sloppy, most work is passed as
is. Or the house inspector team makes note of it. There is a lot of sloppy
work out there that is bought and sold in the real estate market every day.
And all was done without licenses.

You seem to think that there is some sort of electrical police that enforce
the rules to a T in every situation.

Which planet are you from?

Steve

 

[Rich.]

"SteveB" <oldfart@deepends.com> wrote in message
news:ldpei6-1h5.ln1@news.infowest.com...

Uh, on private property where the owner wants to do his own work, or have
someone do it? I am having several things installed right now as we
speak. Ceiling fans on the patio, three motion lights, four multigang
outlets. All in conduit, and all would pass an inspection, and the local
small town inspector even is a friend of mine who dines with us about six
times a year, and sees all the new work. The work is being done by a good
friend of the inspector, although not a licensed electrician. As a
backup, I do have a 37 year union electrician who does look at things (or
does the work when he comes to visit), and he'll be here this weekend to
go bass fishing, and will be able to look at everything, as it is not
covered and finished yet.

Upon sale, copies of permits may be requested by anal buyers, but few can
be provided. Unless the job was just absolutely sloppy, most work is
passed as is. Or the house inspector team makes note of it. There is a
lot of sloppy work out there that is bought and sold in the real estate
market every day. And all was done without licenses.

You seem to think that there is some sort of electrical police that
enforce the rules to a T in every situation.

Which planet are you from?

Steve

Getting away with something is not the same as claiming it's legal to do. If
you had a friend that was a police officer and he saw you blow through a red
light and didn't give you a ticket, according to you it wasn't illegal. So
just because your local inspector friend is looking the other way, doesn't
mean what you're doing is legal. Yes, a homeowner can do the work in his own
single family home, I've already stated that. But at the same time, it is
only legal for him to do so if a homeowners permit is pulled and it is not
legal for anyone but the homeowner to do the work.

Tell me which state we're talking about here and I'll get you the
appropriate state statue that shows that your actions are illegal.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <db35m.22638$_S2.6250@newsfe17.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

Yes, a homeowner can do the work in his own
single family home, I've already stated that. But at the same time, it is
only legal for him to do so if a homeowners permit is pulled and it is not
legal for anyone but the homeowner to do the work.

You seem to believe that the law everywhere is the same as the law where you
live. I suspect you're mistaken.

Tell me which state we're talking about here and I'll get you the
appropriate state statue that shows that your actions are illegal.

OK, here you go: find me the statute that says a homeowner residing in an
unincorporated area of Green Township, Madison County, Indiana USA is required
to pull a permit to do electrical work on his own home.

Find me the statute that says *anyone* needs a permit or a license to perform
electrical work in *any* residence in the town of Noblesville, Hamilton
County, Indiana USA.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Rich." wrote:

Getting away with something is not the same as claiming it's legal to do. If
you had a friend that was a police officer and he saw you blow through a red
light and didn't give you a ticket, according to you it wasn't illegal. So
just because your local inspector friend is looking the other way, doesn't
mean what you're doing is legal. Yes, a homeowner can do the work in his own
single family home, I've already stated that. But at the same time, it is
only legal for him to do so if a homeowners permit is pulled and it is not
legal for anyone but the homeowner to do the work.

Tell me which state we're talking about here and I'll get you the
appropriate state statue that shows that your actions are illegal.

Hey, Rich! I built a commercial UHF TV station in Destin Florida in
the early '90s. (WMXR-TV, Ch. 58) I had a moron building inspector who
was as clueless as you show up. He claimed that I needed a bunch of
different licenses, or he was going to get a cease & desist order. He
claimed that I was in violation of the NEC, as well. I tossed him my
copy of the NEC and asked if he was familiar with the industrial &
theatrical sections, then asked him to show me exactly which codes I was
supposedly breaking. I also pointed out the top left corner of the
blueprints where it stated: Electrician, connect power here. He told me
he didn't give a damn that he was going to see the judge for the cease &
desist order and would be back within the hour. I waited three months
for him, but he never came back. Apparently his boss explained that he
had no jurisdiction over the installation of industrial equipment. It
is up to the electrician connecting the cable between the main
disconnect & the transmitter power distribution system to inspect the
work, not some ignorant building inspector.



--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:56:54 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

Tim Shoppa wrote:

On Jul 5, 2:40 am, John E. <incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring
(3-phase outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where
he wanted them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but
has done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The
guy does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the
CNC's power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence
of either of the players or their actions.

From my past experience in industrial environments, it's 100%
guaranteed that the electrician will wire the 3-phase feeds wrong.
Either the phases will be out of sequence (motor spins backwards), or
it'll be Delta instead of Wye, or wrong voltages, or something. It has
absolutely nothing to do with how much specifying you try, it'll get
hooked up wrong every single time.

Tim.

You need to dump the outfit you are using and use a competent electrician.

The electricians I engaged to run 3-phase 208 40A wire from a panel to
a new machine (with a plug etc), non union, but licensed... they
insisted I interpret the machine manual for them (I'm not an
electrician--- they might have noticed my iron ring but I think they
just wanted 'the customer' (in their mind) to take responsibility).

They also refused to have anything to do with turning the new machine
on. ;-) And I didn't want the client company to pay $2K just to have
some joker from the manufacturer hanging around while the breaker was
flipped, so I did that myself. ;-)

Maybe they've had problems with knuckleheads trying to rip them off?

 

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> fired this volley in
news:wZidnShguKc5UsnXnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@posted.isomediainc:

You need to dump the outfit you are using and use a competent
electrician.

I've only ever met two or three of those in my life.

LLoyd