Driver to drive?

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:47:56 AM UTC-5, peter wrote:

Am Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:32:52 -0800 schrieb Rick C:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:14:54 PM UTC-5, peter wrote:
Am Sun, 05 Jan 2020 09:48:29 -0800 schrieb Rick C:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 8:52:16 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

Most people used the 80188/6 for embedded PC.

What exactly is an "embedded PC"? PC stands for Personal Computer
which is not an embedded computer at all. What are you trying to
say?

A classical example would be a computer in PC/104 < https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC/104> format ...

Cheers, Peter

They don't use the 80186. The 80186 could not be used for a PC because
it had a fixed memory map that did not match the PC. It would have
required a wholly new operating system than any running on the PC when
the 80186 was a viable chip.

You're right -- I stand corrected.

Hey! You can't talk like that! Don't you know what group you are in???

Lol, not very often you find someone here rational enough to admit they made a mistake.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 6:07:07 PM UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:

Hmmm . . . . Food for Thought

Snow, Traffic Jams and Electric Cars - has anyone thought about it?
If all cars were electric ... and were caught up in a three hour
traffic jam?
With dead batteries - then what?
Not to mention, that there is virtually no heating in an electric
vehicle.
And if you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating !
You can try calling 911 to bring women and children to safety!
But they can not even come to help you since all roads are blocked !
And when the roads become cleared, no one can move!
How do you charge the thousands of cars from the traffic jam?
Same problem during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic
jams.
This will make cars run out of ?fuel? and cause never ending traffic
jams.
But that will never happen, right ?

How about a powerful EMP event that takes the grid down for weeks, or months? Gas stations could operate off small generators, and I would think that refineries have large backup generators.

 

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 11:25:09 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 9:55:08 AM UTC-8, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 9:45:19 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs. Since batteries are so expensive, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV. He spends a lot of time here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

Yes, i know him too.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range. People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

I drive more than 50 miles with the Leaf, and charging several time a day. It's not a problem when there are enough charging stations around. It's perfectly fine with the city. The point is to compare it to bicycle. I would rather keep the Leaf than downgrading to a bicycle, even electric bike.

Should do this with the Leaf, not Tesla:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-plugin-hybrid-engine-conversion-obrist/

Yes, doing that to a Tesla is a crime against man and nature. Doing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

Doing it to a Leaf is lesser of two evils, since the Leaf batteries deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do with the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the batteries anyway.

One thing they point out is that the Tesla cells packs 2x to 3x more energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to protect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

I have removable batteries with passive cooling. They takes up more space, but lighter.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:00:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 6:07:07 PM UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:
Hmmm . . . . Food for Thought

Snow, Traffic Jams and Electric Cars - has anyone thought about it?
If all cars were electric ... and were caught up in a three hour
traffic jam?
With dead batteries - then what?
Not to mention, that there is virtually no heating in an electric
vehicle.
And if you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating !
You can try calling 911 to bring women and children to safety!
But they can not even come to help you since all roads are blocked !
And when the roads become cleared, no one can move!
How do you charge the thousands of cars from the traffic jam?
Same problem during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic
jams.
This will make cars run out of ?fuel? and cause never ending traffic
jams.
But that will never happen, right ?

How about a powerful EMP event that takes the grid down for weeks, or months? Gas stations could operate off small generators, and I would think that refineries have large backup generators.

Ok, so you can gas up your ICE, but it won't work because it was destroyed in the EMP. Virtually everything other than my mechanical dial microwave would stop working even with AC power in an EMP event.

Why speculate on such an incredibly improbable event when there are so many much more probable reasons to not like EVs?

Someone here speculated he would have an emergency where he'd need to drive more than the range of an EV and he hadn't plugged it in to charge last night or had just gotten back from a trip where the car was depleted or this or that... All of that nonsense is much more plausible than an EMP!

Even if you drive a 1950 Ford pickup that runs after an EMP (maybe) the radio won't work... well, maybe it will if you can still find tubes! Hey! I'm going to buy the last 1950 Ford pickup in the state and make sure I can survive an EMP event.

Why all the negativity toward EVs? I get that JL is a bonehead who can't accept he was wrong and EVs are going to be widely popular. What do you have against them?

BTW, my Tesla stock is up 75% from the purchase price. As long as it doesn't tank before the end of May I can sell it and only pay long term capital gains. Right now there's well over $100,000 profit. If they report a decent profit for this quarter that will continue up. Then there's only one more quarter to go.

I don't know if Tesla is a good long term buy, but there is a lot of money to be made on the changes in fortune.

--

Rick C.

---++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 11:25:09 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

Should do this with the Leaf, not Tesla:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-plugin-hybrid-engine-conversion-obrist/

Yes, doing that to a Tesla is a crime against man and nature. Doing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

Doing it to a Leaf is lesser of two evils, since the Leaf batteries deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do with the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the batteries anyway.

One thing they point out is that the Tesla cells packs 2x to 3x more energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to protect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

I have removable batteries with passive cooling. They takes up more space, but lighter.

Where do you keep the batteries in the car??? Are they wired into the car or are you running an inverter to charge the car off of 120VAC?

I really have no idea why you do the things you do. My friends think I do strange things. I should let them meet you.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 11:25:09 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

Should do this with the Leaf, not Tesla:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-plugin-hybrid-engine-conversion-obrist/

Yes, doing that to a Tesla is a crime against man and nature. Doing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

Doing it to a Leaf is lesser of two evils, since the Leaf batteries deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do with the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the batteries anyway.

One thing they point out is that the Tesla cells packs 2x to 3x more energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to protect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

I have removable batteries with passive cooling. They takes up more space, but lighter.

Where do you keep the batteries in the car??? Are they wired into the car or are you running an inverter to charge the car off of 120VAC?

Wired into 12V to reduce load on the DC buck regulator, inverted to run laptop and other stuffs, and charge the main batteries in emergency.

> I really have no idea why you do the things you do. My friends think I do strange things. I should let them meet you.

Strange to have additional 12V batteries?

 

[speff]

On Friday, 3 January 2020 00:19:23 UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:

Is Bittele Electronics Inc., 2680 14th Ave, Unit 1&2, Markham,
Ontario L3R 5B2, Canada reliable?
Please cite known details if allowed (and if restrictions, let me
know via e-mail).

Thanks

See those guys at the local electronics shows (EPTECH) every year but have not
used them.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[speff]

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 01:26:17 UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:

Originally developed by Valor, ODB++ is an electronic database for
printed circuit board manufacturing. Created in 1995, it was designed as
a way to better organize the transfer of board data from the designer to
the manufacturer.
What is ODB++?
ODB++ is a data file structure stored in a hierarchy of files and
folders. Often when ODB++ files are transferred, designers will use
common operating system commands that preserve the hierarchy structure
by lumping all of the data into one compressed file.

Why ODB++?
The hierarchy structure in ODB++ allows designers and manufacturers to
transfer more than just the standard layer artwork and drill data
featured in the competing Gerber format. ODB++’s unique file structure
allows for large amounts of additional data to be included in a single
file, including the material stack-up, bill of materials, and component
placement, as well as dimension and fabrication data. With the exception
of Eagle, ODB++ can be accessed through most PCB design programs
(Expedition, PADS, Allegro), making it a nearly universal format
throughout PCB manufacturing.
Who Uses ODB++?
Because of its convenience and structure, ODB++ has become the
industry standard format for PCB manufacturing. Today, around 80 percent
of PCBs are fabricated using ODB++. Amongst the top-ten largest EMS
companies, virtually all are ODB++ compatible.
How does a PCB Manufacturer Handle ODB++ Data?
ODB++ files make it easy to generate all of the necessary programs and
instructions for PCB machinery. ODB++ allows for quick and easy product
manufacturing, without the hassle of having to reverse-engineer data to
the machine software. ODB++ makes it possible for manufacturing to
create your product at the shortest possible turnaround time. Its
comprehensive file structure guarantees less chance for machine or human
error in the manufacturing process, ensuring top quality and reliability
in your PCBA.

*NOTE: "With the exception of Eagle"

O stands for Owned by Mentor Graphics?

> Today, around 80 percent of PCBs are fabricated using ODB++.

Dubious. This source claims: https://blog.jjsmanufacturing.com/gerber-odb-pcb-fabrication

Approximately 90% of all PCB designs worldwide are transferred from designer to fabricator using Gerber RS-274X, and, therefore, regarded by many as the de facto industry standard.

In contrast, the ODB++ file format is estimated to account for around 10% of the total PCB market. However, is simplicity and its user friendliness are making it an increasingly compelling option.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[speff]

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:45:19 UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs. Since batteries are so expensive, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV. He spends a lot of time here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range. People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

Batteries are not cheap, but the cost will be dropping. There are a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

Meanwhile Bolt sales continue to drop. I'm a bit surprised. I test drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.

The Bolt is basically a Korean car with a US-made body.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:37:07 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:49:30 AM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:

... an H2 molecule has
the hybrid orbitals mainly outside the nucleus-nucleus spacing (which is small). The H2 molecule
is nowhere near the size of two H atoms, because the nuclear charge is doubled, just like in He.

Actually, the size of the H2 molecule is very nearly the size of 2 H atoms. I was digging a lot regarding this and it seems the diminishment of the molecular size is very slight in H2. Maybe I found bad references, but that's what they said. 2.10 Å for the H2 molecule and 1.2 Å for the H atom.

My reference reported about ten percent difference in the van der Waals volumes of H2, He, which
would mean those numbers don't fit. In terms of fitting through a pore, I think van der Waals
is appropriate (but an electron 'shell' is really a cloud, the 'size' is a contrivance).

If the He and H2 volumes are ~ten percent apart, that's three or four percent diameter difference.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/1/20 7:33 am, whit3rd wrote:

In terms of fitting through a pore, I think van der Waals
is appropriate

The H2 molecule can fit through a pore end-on, so the pore size is not a
good proxy for the molecular volume.

> If the He and H2 volumes are ~ten percent apart, that's three or four percent diameter difference.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 15:50:08 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>Your guess about how I might spend my time is a malicious speculation, and not the first you've come up with. You do come across as a nasty piece of work.

I can't accept that, Bill. I haven't said anything to warrant that
description. I reckon there's something else that's got your knickers
in a twist. Time will tell...In the mean time, the golf course
beckons, don't you think? .tick-tock, tick-tock...

--

"The BEST Deal is NO DEAL"

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:32:03 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 11:25:09 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

Should do this with the Leaf, not Tesla:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-plugin-hybrid-engine-conversion-obrist/

Yes, doing that to a Tesla is a crime against man and nature. Doing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

Doing it to a Leaf is lesser of two evils, since the Leaf batteries deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do with the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the batteries anyway.

One thing they point out is that the Tesla cells packs 2x to 3x more energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to protect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

I have removable batteries with passive cooling. They takes up more space, but lighter.

Where do you keep the batteries in the car??? Are they wired into the car or are you running an inverter to charge the car off of 120VAC?

Wired into 12V to reduce load on the DC buck regulator, inverted to run laptop and other stuffs, and charge the main batteries in emergency.

I really have no idea why you do the things you do. My friends think I do strange things. I should let them meet you.

Strange to have additional 12V batteries?

Strange to jump through all the gymnastics that you do rather than just get a car with a reasonable battery.

But yes, dragging 12 volt batteries around to run your laptop... is one of them. Why can't you plug the laptop into the wall? Is this to use while you are solar charging your car for hours instead of driving where you are going? I guess running the laptop would suck up most of the solar power?

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:21:52 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:45:19 UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs. Since batteries are so expensive, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV. He spends a lot of time here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range. People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

Batteries are not cheap, but the cost will be dropping. There are a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

Meanwhile Bolt sales continue to drop. I'm a bit surprised. I test drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.


The Bolt is basically a Korean car with a US-made body.

Yep, that's the Chevy part.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 12:56:51 PM UTC-8, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/1/20 7:33 am, whit3rd wrote:
In terms of fitting through a pore, I think van der Waals
is appropriate

The H2 molecule can fit through a pore end-on, so the pore size is not a
good proxy for the molecular volume.

But the H2 nuclei are about 0.74 Angstroms apart, that's not a lot of asymmetry. The
material of the container/pipe/valve will also perturb the electron cloud, volume might
be a better constant than any presumed electron orbital shape.
Iron-iron spacing is about 2.5 Angstroms in a nonporous solid.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:56:51 PM UTC-5, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/1/20 7:33 am, whit3rd wrote:
In terms of fitting through a pore, I think van der Waals
is appropriate

The H2 molecule can fit through a pore end-on, so the pore size is not a
good proxy for the molecular volume.

If the He and H2 volumes are ~ten percent apart, that's three or four percent diameter difference.

None of this is of any value if used in place of actual tests of the gas mixture in the pipes in question. Clearly this is not a problem in the real world as it is being used.

--

Rick C.

--+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:07:37 PM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:32:03 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 11:25:09 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

Should do this with the Leaf, not Tesla:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-plugin-hybrid-engine-conversion-obrist/

Yes, doing that to a Tesla is a crime against man and nature. Doing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

Doing it to a Leaf is lesser of two evils, since the Leaf batteries deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do with the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the batteries anyway.

One thing they point out is that the Tesla cells packs 2x to 3x more energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to protect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

I have removable batteries with passive cooling. They takes up more space, but lighter.

Where do you keep the batteries in the car??? Are they wired into the car or are you running an inverter to charge the car off of 120VAC?

Wired into 12V to reduce load on the DC buck regulator, inverted to run laptop and other stuffs, and charge the main batteries in emergency.

I really have no idea why you do the things you do. My friends think I do strange things. I should let them meet you.

Strange to have additional 12V batteries?

Strange to jump through all the gymnastics that you do rather than just get a car with a reasonable battery.

Yeah, we can have any size battery as long as it's the one size provide by the manufacturer. Most of the time, i only need a small battery to drive around. When i need to relocate vehicles, then i need one big battery in the car one at a time. When it's not in any car, it's for solar grid buffering.

 

[bitrex]

On 1/6/20 5:08 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:21:52 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:45:19 UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs. Since batteries are so expensive, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV. He spends a lot of time here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range. People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

Batteries are not cheap, but the cost will be dropping. There are a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

Meanwhile Bolt sales continue to drop. I'm a bit surprised. I test drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.


The Bolt is basically a Korean car with a US-made body.

Yep, that's the Chevy part.

"Both GM and Tesla hit the limits of federal tax credits in 2019. It
appears to have had little impact on Tesla, but put a drain on the Bolt.
The transition to the longer-range 2020 model might have been an issue
as well."

It's selling less because without the tax credits it's too expensive for
its target audience, people were driving off in them for like 28 grand
before. You could lease them for 1k down $249/month.

The average sale price of a Model 3 is like 45k. And a lease on even a
base trim Model 3 is something like 5k down and $450/month.

The Bolt and all of Teslas products are in two different market
segments. The expiration of the tax credit didn't really hurt the luxury
market segment but it did hurt the economy market segment. Sales of
economy cars are down across the board.

 

[bitrex]

On 1/6/20 6:14 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 1/6/20 5:08 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:21:52 PM UTC-5, speff wrote:
On Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:45:19 UTC-5, Rick C  wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com
wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people
the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans
with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs.  Since batteries are so expensive,
50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build.  Even short range EVs are
more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV.  He spends a lot of time here
complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the
expensive chargers on his longer trips.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range.
People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles.
I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

Batteries are not cheap, but the cost will be dropping.  There are a
very few people who will buy such limited vehicles.  But mainstream
will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile
range.  The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely
impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US.
But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla
model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as
the wider public are buying EVs en masse.  I don't really know what
EV configuration will be the ultimate winner.  I just know it will
be an EV.

Meanwhile Bolt sales continue to drop.  I'm a bit surprised.  I test
drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all.  With a 200 mile
range it's at the top end of your limited range EV.  The model 3 is
just too much competition for it.  That and GM just can't match
Tesla in imagination.  The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always
be one.


The Bolt is basically a Korean car with a US-made body.

Yep, that's the Chevy part.



"Both GM and Tesla hit the limits of federal tax credits in 2019. It
appears to have had little impact on Tesla, but put a drain on the Bolt.
The transition to the longer-range 2020 model might have been an issue
as well."

It's selling less because without the tax credits it's too expensive for
its target audience, people were driving off in them for like 28 grand
before. You could lease them for 1k down $249/month.

The average sale price of a Model 3 is like 45k. And a lease on even a
base trim Model 3 is something like 5k down and $450/month.

That is to say most buyers who were formerly interested in the Bolt
aren't making a decision between the Bolt and a Model 3 and saying "Ok I
should get a 3 instead" they're getting some other crossover, and most
buyers who get a Model 3 never looked at the Bolt.

 

[bitrex]

On 1/6/20 3:21 PM, speff wrote:

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:45:19 UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:56:29 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
Or rather, I think the plan such as it is, is that for many people the
era of owning a personal automobile is coming to an end. From an
economic standpoint EVs have no future among the 50% of Americans with
per capita household incomes under 31k. The future for them is not
electric cars it's the bicycle.

The future is short range EVs. Since batteries are so expensive, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

I know someone with a short range EV. He spends a lot of time here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

No, there is little point in a car with only a 50 mile range. People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

Batteries are not cheap, but the cost will be dropping. There are a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

Meanwhile Bolt sales continue to drop. I'm a bit surprised. I test drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.


The Bolt is basically a Korean car with a US-made body.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Tesla is the BMW or Lexus of electric cars, I think it's silly to make
comparisons between the two mfgrs just because both products are
electric. Any more so than like Toyota buyers and BMW buyers. Eh don't
really want the RAV4, guess I'll get a nicely-equipped 330i instead.
Umm, no?