Driver to drive?

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:30:27 -0800 (PST), dakupoto@gmail.com wrote:

Could some electronics guru point me to a working(i.e., correctly simulates) astable
multivibrator SPICE model with MOSFET only.
I have two working BJT based astable
multivibrator SPICE models. However, my
MOSFET based astable multivibrator model,
works as per hand calculation, but shows
no oscillations with a regular SPICE .TRAN
analysis. I have tried the standard SPICE
tricks, as having voltage pulses on some
nodes to kick start the oscillations, but
these have no effect. Any hints, suggestions
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Post your schematic file (.ASC)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Joe Hey]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 06:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

}snip{

I demand freedom of choice for that kind of questionable medical
procedures.

Sure. And everybody else demands that your lunatic delusions aren't
allowed to endanger them.

You are welcome to stay away from me...

You exaggerate.
In Denmark some doctors *are* warning their (until now playing
deaf) health authorities that there is an increased number of
cases of girls with very serious CFS-like symptoms caused by
the HPV-jab.

Cite.

I don't have to. I'm mentioning it to you, and if you don't want to
know then by all means DON'T look for it.

The problem is that you've almost certainly made a mistake - I know
it, and anybody who has read many of your posts will too. I'm not
going to go to trouble of finding out that you've misunderstood
something - again.

I have mentioned this before, and I have posted the youtube link to
the documentary in which some of those doctors actually are
interviewed and say exactly the things that I mentioned.

Who takes You Tube seriously? Find a properly published report, or
shut up.

See, there's that reaction again.
It's not 'youtube' that one should take seriously, it's the doctors
that talk in the documentary about the problem that the CFS symptoms
are not recognised as a disease and hence are not included in the
studies that are supposed to investigate adverse health effects of the
HPV vaccines.

So there you clearly have the situation that real-life doctors who are
confronted with both vaccine victims and health authorities talk about
this problem of circular 'logic' that states that there are no serious
adverse health effects after effectively having deleted the same from
the study on totally irrational grounds.

This is the exact example of what happens when studies are carried out
allegedly to find an effect by people who actually don't *want* to find
such effect.

And Billy Boy also plays his role in this game by stating he doesn't
want to hear about these problems because it comes to him via youtube
and he doesn't 'trust' youtube.

The stupidity of it all is unbelievable, can not be described by
normal words, but is nonetheless clearly present, and appears to me as
criminal.


joe

 

[Joe Hey]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 06:36:01 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 30 January 2016 01:24:42 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 06:15:41 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 30 January 2016 00:37:37 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:

}snip{

Autistic milk man perhaps?

There are other explanations. Do some reading and you may come
across them.


Ah, found it: Postman!

Trust Joey. Tell him what's really going on and he snips the
explanation and posts a trivial variation on his previous - wrong -
answer.

I learned that from you.

joe

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 30.1.16 08:19, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 4:16:48 PM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 29.1.16 18:54, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:45:21 -0800 (PST),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 11:30:38 PM UTC-5, daku...@gmail.com wrote:
Could some electronics guru point me to a working(i.e., correctly simulates) astable
multivibrator SPICE model with MOSFET only.
I have two working BJT based astable
multivibrator SPICE models. However, my
MOSFET based astable multivibrator model,
works as per hand calculation, but shows
no oscillations with a regular SPICE .TRAN
analysis. I have tried the standard SPICE
tricks, as having voltage pulses on some
nodes to kick start the oscillations, but
these have no effect. Any hints, suggestions
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Usually setting a nonzero voltage as an initial condition on the timing capacitor will start it up...

Unless both mosfets settle down to saturated.

We need to see his circuit.


They will settle both on. The culprit is that there is no path for
the timing capacitor charging current on the gate side when the
gate is high. A MOS differs from a bipolar transistor or JFET
(and also a tube) that there is no current via the gate when the
transistor is turned fully on.

The following thing works. The charge path is via diodes D7 and D8
in the Basic version. The price to pay is that the transistors do
not turn fully on.

Version 4
SHEET 1 1104 1448
WIRE -160 -176 -256 -176
WIRE -16 -176 -160 -176
WIRE 304 -176 -16 -176
WIRE 464 -176 304 -176
WIRE 768 -176 464 -176
WIRE -16 -144 -16 -176
WIRE 768 -144 768 -176
WIRE -16 -16 -16 -64
WIRE 48 -16 -16 -16
WIRE 192 -16 112 -16
WIRE 560 -16 192 -16
WIRE 640 -16 560 -16
WIRE 768 -16 768 -64
WIRE 768 -16 704 -16
WIRE 192 16 192 -16
WIRE 304 16 304 -176
WIRE 464 16 464 -176
WIRE 560 16 560 -16
WIRE -256 160 -256 -176
WIRE -16 160 -16 -16
WIRE 48 160 -16 160
WIRE 192 160 192 96
WIRE 192 160 112 160
WIRE 352 160 192 160
WIRE 464 160 464 96
WIRE 464 160 416 160
WIRE 624 160 464 160
WIRE 768 160 768 -16
WIRE 768 160 688 160
WIRE 880 160 768 160
WIRE -16 256 -16 160
WIRE 48 256 -16 256
WIRE 304 256 304 96
WIRE 304 256 112 256
WIRE 352 256 304 256
WIRE 560 256 560 96
WIRE 560 256 416 256
WIRE 624 256 560 256
WIRE 768 256 768 160
WIRE 768 256 688 256
WIRE -16 304 -16 256
WIRE 768 304 768 256
WIRE 192 384 192 160
WIRE 192 384 32 384
WIRE 560 384 560 256
WIRE 720 384 560 384
WIRE 560 432 560 384
WIRE 608 432 560 432
WIRE -256 448 -256 240
WIRE -16 448 -16 400
WIRE 768 464 768 400
WIRE -160 848 -160 -176
WIRE 0 848 -160 848
WIRE 208 848 0 848
WIRE 576 848 208 848
WIRE 784 848 576 848
WIRE 0 880 0 848
WIRE 208 880 208 848
WIRE 576 880 576 848
WIRE 784 896 784 848
WIRE 0 1024 0 960
WIRE 64 1024 0 1024
WIRE 208 1024 208 960
WIRE 208 1024 128 1024
WIRE 368 1024 208 1024
WIRE 784 1024 784 976
WIRE 784 1024 432 1024
WIRE 896 1024 784 1024
WIRE 0 1120 0 1024
WIRE 368 1120 0 1120
WIRE 576 1120 576 960
WIRE 576 1120 432 1120
WIRE 640 1120 576 1120
WIRE 784 1120 784 1024
WIRE 784 1120 704 1120
WIRE 0 1168 0 1120
WIRE 784 1168 784 1120
WIRE 208 1248 208 1024
WIRE 208 1248 48 1248
WIRE 576 1248 576 1120
WIRE 736 1248 576 1248
WIRE 576 1296 576 1248
WIRE 624 1296 576 1296
WIRE 0 1312 0 1264
WIRE 784 1328 784 1264
FLAG 768 464 0
FLAG -16 448 0
FLAG -256 448 0
FLAG 608 432 g1
FLAG 880 160 Out1
IOPIN 880 160 Out
FLAG 784 1328 0
FLAG 0 1312 0
FLAG 624 1296 g3
FLAG 896 1024 Out2
IOPIN 896 1024 Out
SYMBOL nmos 720 304 R0
SYMATTR InstName M1
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL nmos 32 304 M0
SYMATTR InstName M2
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL res -32 -160 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 752 -160 R0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 176 0 R0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 100k
SYMBOL res 544 0 R0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 100k
SYMBOL diode 704 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName D1
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL diode 48 0 R270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName D2
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL voltage -256 144 R0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 5
SYMBOL diode 624 272 R270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName D3
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL diode 112 144 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName D4
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL res 288 0 R0
SYMATTR InstName R5
SYMATTR Value 10k
SYMBOL res 448 0 R0
SYMATTR InstName R6
SYMATTR Value 10k
SYMBOL diode 624 176 R270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName D5
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL diode 112 240 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName D6
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL cap 416 144 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value 1n
SYMBOL cap 416 240 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value 1n
SYMBOL nmos 736 1168 R0
SYMATTR InstName M3
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL nmos 48 1168 M0
SYMATTR InstName M4
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL res -16 864 R0
SYMATTR InstName R7
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 768 880 R0
SYMATTR InstName R8
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 192 864 R0
SYMATTR InstName R9
SYMATTR Value 100k
SYMBOL res 560 864 R0
SYMATTR InstName R10
SYMATTR Value 100k
SYMBOL diode 640 1136 R270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName D8
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL diode 128 1008 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName D7
SYMATTR Value 1N4148
SYMBOL cap 432 1008 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 1n
SYMBOL cap 432 1104 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C4
SYMATTR Value 1n
TEXT 304 368 Left 2 !.tran 1m
TEXT 304 400 Left 2 !.ic V(g1)=3
TEXT 320 1264 Left 2 !.ic V(g3)=3
TEXT 288 736 Left 5 ;Basic
TEXT 256 -280 Left 5 ;Complete
RECTANGLE Normal -316 680 1096 1444 2
RECTANGLE Normal -320 564 1088 -360 2

--

-TV

I think you have hit the nail on the head. As I
do not use LTSpice, but Ngspice, could you please
post your netlist in the form of my own netlist
(please see below):

Hope this is OK:

* /Users/tauno/Desktop/ltspice/mosmv.asc
M1 Out1 g1 0 0 2N7002
M2 N002 N004 0 0 2N7002
R1 N001 N002 1k
R2 N001 Out1 1k
R3 N003 N004 100k
R4 N003 g1 100k
D1 Out1 N003 1N4148
D2 N002 N003 1N4148
V1 N001 0 5
D3 g1 Out1 1N4148
D4 N004 N002 1N4148
R5 N001 N006 10k
R6 N001 N005 10k
D5 N005 Out1 1N4148
D6 N006 N002 1N4148
C1 N005 N004 1n
C2 g1 N006 1n
M3 Out2 g3 0 0 2N7002
M4 N007 N008 0 0 2N7002
R7 N001 N007 1k
R8 N001 Out2 1k
R9 N001 N008 100k
R10 N001 g3 100k
D8 g3 Out2 1N4148
D7 N008 N007 1N4148
C3 Out2 N008 1n
C4 g3 N007 1n
..model D D
..lib /Users/tauno/Library/Application Support/LTspice/lib/cmp/standard.dio
..model NMOS NMOS
..model PMOS PMOS
..lib /Users/tauno/Library/Application Support/LTspice/lib/cmp/standard.mos
..tran 1m
..ic V(g1)=3
..ic V(g3)=3
* Basic
* Complete
..backanno
..end

--

-TV

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 29.1.16 23:16, Tauno Voipio wrote:

On 29.1.16 18:54, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:45:21 -0800 (PST),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 11:30:38 PM UTC-5, daku...@gmail.com
wrote:
Could some electronics guru point me to a working(i.e., correctly
simulates) astable
multivibrator SPICE model with MOSFET only.
I have two working BJT based astable
multivibrator SPICE models. However, my
MOSFET based astable multivibrator model,
works as per hand calculation, but shows
no oscillations with a regular SPICE .TRAN
analysis. I have tried the standard SPICE
tricks, as having voltage pulses on some
nodes to kick start the oscillations, but
these have no effect. Any hints, suggestions
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Usually setting a nonzero voltage as an initial condition on the
timing capacitor will start it up...

Here is one more, the classic emitter-coupled astable migrated
to MOS. The output is not logic levels and not too beautiful,
but the thing starts without kicking.

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE 256 -32 -128 -32
WIRE 640 -32 256 -32
WIRE 256 32 256 -32
WIRE 640 32 640 -32
WIRE 640 160 640 112
WIRE 640 160 96 160
WIRE 768 160 640 160
WIRE 256 208 256 112
WIRE 448 208 256 208
WIRE 256 240 256 208
WIRE 640 240 640 160
WIRE -128 304 -128 -32
WIRE 96 320 96 160
WIRE 208 320 96 320
WIRE 448 320 448 208
WIRE 592 320 448 320
WIRE 256 400 256 336
WIRE 416 400 256 400
WIRE 640 400 640 336
WIRE 640 400 480 400
WIRE 256 432 256 400
WIRE 640 432 640 400
WIRE -128 592 -128 384
WIRE 256 592 256 512
WIRE 640 592 640 512
FLAG 256 592 0
FLAG 640 592 0
FLAG -128 592 0
FLAG 768 160 Out
IOPIN 768 160 Out
SYMBOL nmos 592 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName M1
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL nmos 208 240 R0
SYMATTR InstName M2
SYMATTR Value 2N7002
SYMBOL res 240 16 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 624 16 R0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res 240 416 R0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 4.7k
SYMBOL res 624 416 R0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 4.7k
SYMBOL voltage -128 288 R0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 5
SYMBOL cap 480 384 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value 10n
TEXT -16 520 Left 2 !.tran 2m

--

-TV

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Larkin wrote...

This works, and doesn't need any more parts
than the one that doesn't work. [snip]

Class-A on both sides, yet full 10V swing.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[John Larkin]

On 30 Jan 2016 07:26:23 -0800, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

John Larkin wrote...

This works, and doesn't need any more parts
than the one that doesn't work. [snip]

Class-A on both sides, yet full 10V swing.

Once it gets going, it's almost the same as the classic circuit.
Which, with mosfets, is still pretty bad.

The frequency will depend on gate thresholds, so will be pretty
inaccurate, much worse than the NPN classic.

The dual NPN astable can seize up, just like the mosfet version, but
usually doesn't. One has to be careful to not zener the NPNs, too.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 11:17:08 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:

On 1/29/2016 5:09 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 14:18:47 UTC+11, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
"Antidepressants have to change the nervous system to work at all.
Vaccines have no direct effect on the nervous system. You have this
theory that they (vaccines)can, sometimes, but if it does happen it seems to > > be too rare to show up as statistically significant. "

Damn, sorry I thought you had good schools down there. Antidepressants must effect a change in brain chemistry. the nerves running up down
your arms and legs got not a fucking thing to do with it.

But all the nerves are built the same way.

Also note that Jamie is quoting things from a dot gov.

But not understanding what he's quoting. Neural pruning happens in adolescence and early adult life, and it's very specific. It seems to go
wrong in autism but that seems to be a congenitial defect - you are
conceived with duff genes and your brain doesn't develop quite as it should.

Wrong again (as usual) Bill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

"Synaptic pruning or axon pruning is the process of synapse elimination
that occurs between early childhood and the onset of puberty in many
mammals.[1] Pruning starts near the time of birth and is completed by
the time of sexual maturation in humans."

Opinions differ.

Also neural pruning is directly related to immune system triggers,
so it can be started/stopped at different times.

Using the term immune system is a rather wider sense than is usual. If it gets "started/stopped" at the wrong time the result is likely to be an even bigger disaster than autism/schizophrenia

> You do realize that you think you are always right,

I don't. I think I'm mostly right, and right a lot more often than you are, but I'm well aware that I make mistakes, and have been known to over-estimate the range of muy knowledge. You post obvious nonsense - as in the sentence above - and show no sign of ever realising that you devalue the - very occasional - valid claim that you do make.

people are trying to catch up with you alright, but not cause you are
intellectually superior, just because you are creating a trail of
illogical/incorrectness that people like me try to fix (pointless
for your own benefit, since you push on down your path of insanity,
but at least someone tries to clean up the mess you make.

Someone who advises drinking unpasteurised milk, and keeps on insisting that it's a good idea, clearly has a rather warped idea of what might be illogical or incorrect.

I can see why you don't stop and face the current moment of your
own ignorance, cause then you might see the path leading to this
point of all your accumulated ignorance, so better to keep moving
on, and let others do the learning from your mistakes.

You are Joey Hey do seem to be more generally ignorant than anybody else around here. Jim-out-of-touch-with-reality-Thompson has his moments, and John Larkin reliably posts denialist propaganda when he talks about anthropogenic global warming, but most of what you two post is dangerously wrong.

Having you tell me that you are trying to correct my ignorance does have a rather high irony content, and does poit to an astonishing degree of self-delusion on your part.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

cheers,
Jamie

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 11:17:08 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:

On 1/29/2016 5:09 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 14:18:47 UTC+11, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
"Antidepressants have to change the nervous system to work at all.
Vaccines have no direct effect on the nervous system. You have this
theory that they (vaccines)can, sometimes, but if it does happen it seems to > > be too rare to show up as statistically significant. "

Damn, sorry I thought you had good schools down there. Antidepressants
must effect a change in brain chemistry. the nerves running up down
your arms and legs got not a fucking thing to do with it.

But all the nerves are built the same way.

Also note that Jamie is quoting things from a dot gov.

But not understanding what he's quoting. Neural pruning happens in
adolescence and early adult life, and it's very specific. It seems to go
wrong in autism but that seems to be a congenitial defect - you are
conceived with duff genes and your brain doesn't develop quite as it should.

Wrong again (as usual) Bill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

"Synaptic pruning or axon pruning is the process of synapse elimination
that occurs between early childhood and the onset of puberty in many
mammals.[1] Pruning starts near the time of birth and is completed by
the time of sexual maturation in humans."

Also neural pruning is directly related to immune system triggers,
so it can be started/stopped at different times.

Not as correct as I would have liked to have been, but correct where it matter.

Synaptic pruning involves pruning specific synapses.

Immune system problems with neural development involve system-wide inhibitions.

The immune system components that may be doing synaptic pruning aren't the same components that that are involved in looking for virus particles in the blood.

A pregnant woman getting a serious inflammation during pregnancy won't have the resources to nourish her fetus properly, so there may not be all the neurones present in adolescence to have the synapses that should have been pruned, but claiming that because the "immune system" is involved, it's all the same problem is a fatuous idiocy on your part.

You want to concentrate on the timing of the neural pruning - which I didn't get as right as I would have liked - and happily ignore the specificity, which is what matters.

<snipped Jamie crowing about catching me in a minor inaccuracy, while failing to note that it didn't make any difference to the core of the argument, where he's just as wrong as usual>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jamie M]

On 1/29/2016 5:09 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, 29 January 2016 14:18:47 UTC+11, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
"Antidepressants have to change the nervous system to work at all.
Vaccines have no direct effect on the nervous system. You have this
theory that they (vaccines)can, sometimes, but if it does happen it seems to > > be too rare to show up as statistically significant. "

Damn, sorry I thought you had good schools down there. Antidepressants must effect a change in brain chemistry. the nerves running up down
your arms and legs got not a fucking thing to do with it.

But all the nerves are built the same way.

Also note that Jamie is quoting things from a dot gov.

But not understanding what he's quoting. Neural pruning happens in adolescence and early adult life, and it's very specific. It seems to go

wrong in autism but that seems to be a congenitial defect - you are
conceived with duff genes and your brain doesn't develop quite as it should.
>

Wrong again (as usual) Bill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

"Synaptic pruning or axon pruning is the process of synapse elimination
that occurs between early childhood and the onset of puberty in many
mammals.[1] Pruning starts near the time of birth and is completed by
the time of sexual maturation in humans."

Also neural pruning is directly related to immune system triggers,
so it can be started/stopped at different times.

You do realize that you think you are always right, people are
trying to catch up with you alright, but not cause you are
intellectually superior, just because you are creating a trail of
illogical/incorrectness that people like me try to fix (pointless
for your own benefit, since you push on down your path of insanity,
but at least someone tries to clean up the mess you make.

I can see why you don't stop and face the current moment of your
own ignorance, cause then you might see the path leading to this
point of all your accumulated ignorance, so better to keep moving
on, and let others do the learning from your mistakes.

cheers,
Jamie

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 15:54:09 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:

On 1/29/2016 5:34 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 22:40:24 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:
On 1/28/2016 11:36 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 16:55:20 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:14:07 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

snipped Joey Hey being as moronic as ever

No. It's a moronic misapprehension about how virus infection works,
and what viruses exist to do.

If one virus strain gets blocked, another strain takes over.
And probably with a vengeance.

Really? If I get innoculated against one strain of flu, does a new strain
spring up immediately to give me a different strain of flu?

I can't find the reference, but there was a recent paper showing that
multiple strains of flu viruses are transmitted at the same time.

I did, and posted a link.

This shows that if there are two or more virulent strains in a single
flu season with too much variation between the strains to inoculate
against both of them with a single vaccine, then the one that hasn't
been inoculated for can cause the flu, and potentially have more
damaging effects than if there was no inoculation against the other
strain.

This depends on how you define a "strain" of flu virus. There are about two million nucleotides in the flu virus genome, and - technically speaking - a difference in any one amino acid creates a different strain.

In practice, the two big proteins that package the RNA payload determine most of what a flu virus does, and all the reactions of the immune system to it.

Quite often the examples of the virus that circulate in any one season are antigenically identical, but there's nothing to stop you from vaccinating against two or more different strains with a single injection incorporating different protein fragments that activate two (or more) different antibodies.

The flu virus mutates quite a lot faster than the human papillomavirus, so it wasn't a useful comment.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 16:08:22 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:

On 1/30/2016 6:49 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, 31 January 2016 11:17:08 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:
On 1/29/2016 5:09 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 14:18:47 UTC+11, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

"Antidepressants have to change the nervous system to work at all.
Vaccines have no direct effect on the nervous system. You have this
theory that they (vaccines)can, sometimes, but if it does happen it
seems to be too rare to show up as statistically significant. "

Damn, sorry I thought you had good schools down there. Antidepressants
must effect a change in brain chemistry. the nerves running up down
your arms and legs got not a fucking thing to do with it.

But all the nerves are built the same way.

Also note that Jamie is quoting things from a dot gov.

But not understanding what he's quoting. Neural pruning happens in
adolescence and early adult life, and it's very specific. It seems to go
wrong in autism but that seems to be a congenitial defect - you are
conceived with duff genes and your brain doesn't develop quite as it
should.

Wrong again (as usual) Bill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

"Synaptic pruning or axon pruning is the process of synapse elimination
that occurs between early childhood and the onset of puberty in many
mammals.[1] Pruning starts near the time of birth and is completed by
the time of sexual maturation in humans."

Also neural pruning is directly related to immune system triggers,
so it can be started/stopped at different times.

Not as correct as I would have liked to have been, but correct where it
matters.

Synaptic pruning involves pruning specific synapses.

Immune system problems with neural development involve system-wide
inhibitions.

The immune system components that may be doing synaptic pruning aren't the > > same components that that are involved in looking
for virus particles in the blood.

A pregnant woman getting a serious inflammation during pregnancy won't have > > the resources to nourish her fetus properly, so there
may not be all the neurones present in adolescence to have the synapses
that should have been pruned, but claiming that because the
"immune system" is involved, it's all the same problem is a fatuous
idiocy on your part.

You want to concentrate on the timing of the neural pruning - which I
didn't get as right as I would have liked - and happily ignore
the specificity, which is what matters.

snipped Jamie crowing about catching me in a minor inaccuracy, while failing to note that it didn't make any difference to the core
of the argument, where he's just as wrong as usual

Typical that you expect I would enjoy correcting your errors, lol, it is
humorous I admit, but I would much rather that you were correct
instead of constantly speaking falsehoods.

My irony meter just went off the scale.

ie. Bill Sloman falsehood 18323?:

"There's no evidence that viruses compete inside the body, and they
certainly don't interact."

That falsehood is easy to prove, just consider how new viruses can
be formed from factory farms, when an animals is infected by
multiple strains, there can be genetic transfer to make new strains.

You are probably thinking (if I can dignify the process with that title) about bird flu viruses, which are so innocuous in birds that they can have a resident population that dense enough that two virus particles have a finite chance of being in the same cell at the same time that both viruses decide to destroy the cell by turning it into a virus factory.

Factory farms do keep lots of animals in close proximity, which does maximise viral transfer. The human papillomavirus is a lot less benign, and is typically cleared from the human system within a year.

Joey Hey was talking nonsense, and you are too dim to realise it. My claim might not have been decked out with all the reservations required to make it absolutely true in all circumstances, but it isn't any kind of falsehood, and your attempt to label is as one is a genuine falsehood.

Really your reductionist thought limitations can't see how bacteria and
viruses can easily share (and often do) genetic information "cross
species" constantly in the human gut etc.

What goes on in the human gut, outside any human cell wall, with bacteria doesn't actually generalise to what goes on inside human cells, with viruses..

Your failure to grasp that the bacterium and the virus are very different forms of life, with very different constraints, is one of the clearer indications that you should be muzzled to prevent you spreading moronic misconceptions.

You are kind enough to make your misconceptions so obvious and blantant that nobody with a minimal education cloudl take you seriously, but this still leaves the Joey Heys of this world, who latch on to any kind of misinformation that simple enough for them to digest, no matter how dangerously wrong it happens to be.

I can see you enjoy correcting people, which is obvious since even when
your information is incorrect you still "correct with false info". Go
learn some more real stuff before you can enjoy correcting everyone
truthfully, then maybe you will be just an ass instead of a dumbass.

This is a statement that must have been addressed to you recently. I do recognise some of the phrases that I have addressed to you.

I'm afraid that it's a request that will cause some hilarity. You are the group's dumbass, and are stupid enough not to be aware of it. This is the most important piece of information you need to learn, but there there's a lot of education that you've missed. You show no signs at all of having any capacity to learn - least of all from your mistakes, which you keep on reiterating.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 15:45:15 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

}snip{

Someone who advises drinking unpasteurised milk, and keeps on
insisting that it's a good idea, clearly has a rather warped idea of
what might be illogical or incorrect.

What's wrong with drinking unpasteurised milk?

Historically speaking, it gave you TB. Today you run a lower risk of a wider range of infections. The US FDA mentions "Salmonella, E. coli, and Listeria" and mentions that you are 150 times more likely to get a food-borne infection from drinking unpasteursed milk than you are from consuming pasteurised dairy products. The good news is that it's only 13 times more likely to hospitalise you - a cynic might wonder whether the other 137 died before they got to hospital.

> The cow's babies drink it.

And they got bovine TB from it.

> And did your mother pasteurize her milk first before feeding you?

No, but she'd been tested for TB, and knew she didn't have it at the time.

When I was kid, the mobile chest X-ray vans went around Tasmania nonstop, checking everybody for TB shadows-on-the-lungs every six months.

> I think you just want to sterilize nature, don't you?

Not having any tuberculosis bacteria around may be sterilising nature to some extent, as does not having any smallpox virus around, but eliminating bugs who like to make us sick doesn't strike me as a bad idea, nor as unrealistically ambitious.

}snip{

You and Joey Hey

No, he is not!

The difference is immaterial. You are both ignorant half-wits. What I intend was

"You and Joey Hey"

as would have been obvious from the context (which you snipped) to anybody who wasn't a half-wit (which you do seem to be).

do seem to be more generally ignorant than anybody
else around here.

I think there are more here who disagree with you than you think, but
are afraid to express it because of your 'intellectual bullying'.

I'm frequently right, so the people who would like to disagree with me mostly check their facts before sticking their necks out. You and Jamie can't understand the facts even when you check them, which makes you more fool-hardy than you should be.

I'm not afraid of you, you can't touch my sense of self-esteem, so I
just post what I want. Mostly right, but wrong as perceived by you.

I'm well aware that you have an irrationally high self-esteem - you make this clear pretty much every time you post.

<snipped Joey Hey being a moronic as ever>

Having you tell me that you are trying to correct my ignorance does
have a rather high irony content, and does point to an astonishing
degree of self-delusion on your part.

I'm not even trying any more to correct your mis-conceptions about
nature and its risks. You can keep them... to yourself.

Since your "corrections" are basically wall-to-wall misconceptions, I'm sure we'd all be happier if you shut up.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jamie M]

On 1/30/2016 6:49 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 11:17:08 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:
On 1/29/2016 5:09 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 14:18:47 UTC+11, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
"Antidepressants have to change the nervous system to work at all.
Vaccines have no direct effect on the nervous system. You have this
theory that they (vaccines)can, sometimes, but if it does happen it seems to > > be too rare to show up as statistically significant. "

Damn, sorry I thought you had good schools down there. Antidepressants
must effect a change in brain chemistry. the nerves running up down
your arms and legs got not a fucking thing to do with it.

But all the nerves are built the same way.

Also note that Jamie is quoting things from a dot gov.

But not understanding what he's quoting. Neural pruning happens in
adolescence and early adult life, and it's very specific. It seems to go
wrong in autism but that seems to be a congenitial defect - you are
conceived with duff genes and your brain doesn't develop quite as it should.

Wrong again (as usual) Bill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

"Synaptic pruning or axon pruning is the process of synapse elimination
that occurs between early childhood and the onset of puberty in many
mammals.[1] Pruning starts near the time of birth and is completed by
the time of sexual maturation in humans."

Also neural pruning is directly related to immune system triggers,
so it can be started/stopped at different times.

Not as correct as I would have liked to have been, but correct where it matter.

Synaptic pruning involves pruning specific synapses.

Immune system problems with neural development involve system-wide inhibitions.

The immune system components that may be doing synaptic pruning aren't the same components that that are involved in looking
for virus particles in the blood.

A pregnant woman getting a serious inflammation during pregnancy won't have the resources to nourish her fetus properly, so there

may not be all the neurones present in adolescence to have the synapses
that should have been pruned, but claiming that because the
"immune system" is involved, it's all the same problem is a fatuous
idiocy on your part.

You want to concentrate on the timing of the neural pruning - which I didn't get as right as I would have liked - and happily ignore
the specificity, which is what matters.

snipped Jamie crowing about catching me in a minor inaccuracy, while failing to note that it didn't make any difference to the core
of the argument, where he's just as wrong as usual

Hi,

Typical that you expect I would enjoy correcting your errors, lol, it is
humorous I admit, but I would much rather that you were correct
instead of constantly speaking falsehoods.

ie. Bill Slowman falsehood 18323?:

"There's no evidence that viruses compete inside the body, and they
certainly don't interact."

That falsehood is easy to prove, just consider how new viruses can
be formed from factory farms, when an animals is infected by
multiple strains, there can be genetic transfer to make new strains.

Really your reductionist thought limitations can't see how bacteria and
viruses can easily share (and often do) genetic information "cross
species" constantly in the human gut etc.

I can see you enjoy correcting people, which is obvious since even when
your information is incorrect you still "correct with false info". Go
learn some more real stuff before you can enjoy correcting everyone
truthfully, then maybe you will be just an ass instead of a dumbass.

cheers,
Jamie

 

[Jamie M]

On 1/29/2016 5:34 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, 29 January 2016 22:40:24 UTC+11, Jamie M wrote:
On 1/28/2016 11:36 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, 29 January 2016 16:55:20 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:14:07 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

snipped Joey Hey being as moronic as ever

No. It's a moronic misapprehension about how virus infection works,
and what viruses exist to do.

If one virus strain gets blocked, another strain takes over.
And probably with a vengeance.

Really? If I get innoculated against one strain of flu, does a new strain
spring up immediately to give me a different strain of flu?

Hi,

I can't find the reference, but there was a recent paper showing that
multiple strains of flu viruses are transmitted at the same time.

This shows that if there are two or more virulent strains in a single
flu season with too much variation between the strains to inoculate
against both of them with a single vaccine, then the one that hasn't
been inoculated for can cause the flu, and potentially have more
damaging effects than if there was no inoculation against the other
strain.

cheers,
Jamie

 

[Joe Hey]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

}snip{

Someone who advises drinking unpasteurised milk, and keeps on
insisting that it's a good idea, clearly has a rather warped idea of
what might be illogical or incorrect.

What's wrong with drinking unpasteurised milk?

The cow's babies drink it.
And did your mother pasteurize her milk first before feeding you?

I think you just want to sterilize nature, don't you?

}snip{

> You are Joey Hey

No, he is not!

do seem to be more generally ignorant than anybody
else around here.

I think there are more here who disagree with you than you think, but
are afraid to express it because of your 'intellectual bullying'.
I'm not afraid of you, you can't touch my sense of self-esteem, so I
just post what I want. Mostly right, but wrong as perceived by you.

}snip{

I propose
1. Zika-virus parties, not unlike the measles-parties of the past, for
the people to get the opportunity to get immunity from it, and
2. A pregnancy prohibition for women who have yet failed to naturally
immunize themselves, the foolish society endangering wrong beings...

The few people who are known to be at risk of dangerous complications
are of course granted a generous exemption, and are anyway protected by
the (as of yet unproven concept of) herd-immunity of the rest.

Having you tell me that you are trying to correct my ignorance does
have a rather high irony content, and does poit to an astonishing
degree of self-delusion on your part.

I'm not even trying any more to correct your mis-conceptions about
nature and its risks. You can keep them... to yourself.

joe

 

[Joe Hey]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 22:31:55 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 15:45:15 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

}snip{

Someone who advises drinking unpasteurised milk, and keeps on
insisting that it's a good idea, clearly has a rather warped idea
of what might be illogical or incorrect.

What's wrong with drinking unpasteurised milk?

Historically speaking, it gave you TB. Today you run a lower risk of
a wider range of infections. The US FDA mentions "Salmonella, E.
coli, and Listeria" and mentions that you are 150 times more likely
to get a food-borne infection from drinking unpasteursed milk than
you are from consuming pasteurised dairy products. The good news is
that it's only 13 times more likely to hospitalise you - a cynic
might wonder whether the other 137 died before they got to hospital.
The cow's babies drink it.

And they got bovine TB from it.

And did your mother pasteurize her milk first before feeding you?

No, but she'd been tested for TB, and knew she didn't have it at the
time.

So, maybe we should treat our cows a bit better so that we can prevent
infection with TB and *then* drink their milk.

When I was kid, the mobile chest X-ray vans went around Tasmania
nonstop, checking everybody for TB shadows-on-the-lungs every six
months.
I think you just want to sterilize nature, don't you?

Not having any tuberculosis bacteria around may be sterilising nature
to some extent, as does not having any smallpox virus around, but
eliminating bugs who like to make us sick doesn't strike me as a bad
idea, nor as unrealistically ambitious.
}snip{

You and Joey Hey

No, he is not!

The difference is immaterial. You are both ignorant half-wits. What I
intend was
"You and Joey Hey"

Sneaky net-copper again. In the post that I responded to you wrote
"...You are Joey Hey...", not 'You and Joey'.

And as you seem to have the habit to change what you wrote on the fly
*after* someone has responded to it, thereby making his response
invalid, there's no use in responding to you any more, because chances
are that you will repeat that moronic behaviour.


}snipped historically unreliable piece of text{

joe

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, 1 February 2016 02:20:24 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 22:31:55 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 31 January 2016 15:45:15 UTC+11, Joe Hey wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@gmail.com> wrote:

}snip{

Someone who advises drinking unpasteurised milk, and keeps on
insisting that it's a good idea, clearly has a rather warped idea
of what might be illogical or incorrect.

What's wrong with drinking unpasteurised milk?

Historically speaking, it gave you TB. Today you run a lower risk of
a wider range of infections. The US FDA mentions "Salmonella, E.
coli, and Listeria" and mentions that you are 150 times more likely
to get a food-borne infection from drinking unpasteursed milk than
you are from consuming pasteurised dairy products. The good news is
that it's only 13 times more likely to hospitalise you - an alarmist
might wonder whether the other 137 died before they got to hospital.

The cow's babies drink it.

And they got bovine TB from it.

And did your mother pasteurize her milk first before feeding you?

No, but she'd been tested for TB, and knew she didn't have it at the
time.

So, maybe we should treat our cows a bit better so that we can prevent
infection with TB and *then* drink their milk.

That's what we do today - milk herds are routinely tested for bovine TB, and culled if they test positive. As the FDA figures show, this doesn't work as well
with Salmonella, E. coli, and Listeria.

When I was kid, the mobile chest X-ray vans went around Tasmania
nonstop, checking everybody for TB shadows-on-the-lungs every six
months.

I think you just want to sterilize nature, don't you?

Not having any tuberculosis bacteria around may be sterilising nature
to some extent, as does not having any smallpox virus around, but
eliminating bugs who like to make us sick doesn't strike me as a bad
idea, nor as unrealistically ambitious.

}snip{

You and Joey Hey

No, he is not!

The difference is immaterial. You are both ignorant half-wits. What I
intend was "You and Joey Hey"

Sneaky net-copper again. In the post that I responded to you wrote
"...You are Joey Hey...", not 'You and Joey'.

What did you think "intended" meant?

And as you seem to have the habit to change what you wrote on the fly
*after* someone has responded to it, thereby making his response
invalid, there's no use in responding to you any more, because chances
are that you will repeat that moronic behaviour.

We all make typo's. The moronic behaviour is entirely yours. If you weren't a moron you would have realised that it was a typo, and the original "are" should have been "and" as is obvious from the context that you snipped.

}snipped historically unreliable piece of text{

which did include much the same content as I've just rewritten. Joey Hey is a transparent half-wit ...

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

在 1998年12月18日星期五 UTC+8下午4:00:00，Robert L. Doerr写道：

What are the advantages of having a solder mask put
on a board if you are assembling a board by hand? I
always thought you needed it if you were going to have
the boards wave soldered but what are the other advantages?
I want to design some small kits and I was wondering
if I should spend the extra for the solder mask.

Robert

Jiangmen ABQ Electronic Material Co.,LTD was estimated in the year of 2006.

specialized in the production of high-end photoimageable PCB ink.

We passed the ISO9001 quality standard identification.and ISO14001.



Our Main products:

PISM white colour RS-2000 (W series)for LED ( patent products ),

PISM white colour matt for automative (we have TS16949 certificate , in Europe our RS-2000 WDM already be appointed to use in Automative industry,so there are a lot of PCB factory from china ,from korea ,from Thailand are buying RS-2000 WDM for their Europe automotive order).



Electronica spray ink RS-2000 SP(our electronica spray ink is sucessful in Korea market already)

PISM green colour RS-2000GL

PISM other colours RS-2000 BL,K,Y,R ,and others.

$UV cured solder mask UV-1000 G green colour

UV cured solder mask UV-1000 W white colour

Etching ink RS-1200,RS-1280,RS-8580

UV etching ink UV-680,UV 690.

Conduction current carbon ink RF-1860

Low pressure coating ink:RS-2000 BDHF

Marking ink.



All of our products are approved by UL ,(UL filenumber :E-310593).



Main customers in china :Founder technology ,Tiger builder ,Red board ,KB

,mankun and so on.



Due to we are setting up a new factory ,the total produce capacity will

reach 800tons per month.



In order to meet the new capacity we must develop oversea market largely

with very competitive price.



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price ,stable quality ,excellent service.

Now our oversea market is :korea ,russia ,india ,parkistan,saudi,brazil

,usa,vietnam,turkey,Iran,malaysia and so on.



Consindering the cost ,now more and more PCB manufacturers choose china

mainland PCB ink supplier.



Now we are developing your market,so if we can get cooperation chance from

you then we will be very much appreciated.



Looking forward to hearing from you and best regards.



Mrs. Wang


****************************************************************

Export Manager

Jiangmen ABQ Electronic Material CO.,LTD

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abq.pcb.ink

Video: https://youtu.be/iZEE5h3H6Dg

Web: http://www.jmbq.com.cn

E-MAIL: abqink@hotmail.com | abqink@gmail.com

export@jmbq.com.cn

SKYPE: abqink@hotmail.com

MP: 0086-18501626226

(Whatsapp,Viber,Line,Kakao,Wechat)

 

在 1999年10月1日星期五 UTC+8下午3:00:00，Dave Harris写道：

Can anyone tell me what ink should be used for screen printing on
copper? I have no problem with the screen printing process itself
(been doing it for years) but my first attempts to make a PCB by this
method weren't too successful. I've tried glossy vinyl and matt poster
inks (both solvent-based) but found that I could easily rub the
pattern off the board with a finger. I would think roughening the
board with steel wool or similar would work, but I can't see that that
should be necessary.

Any advice much appreciated.

Dave

Jiangmen ABQ Electronic Material Co.,LTD was estimated in the year of 2006.

specialized in the production of high-end photoimageable PCB ink.

We passed the ISO9001 quality standard identification.and ISO14001.



Our Main products:

PISM white colour RS-2000 (W series)for LED ( patent products ),

PISM white colour matt for automative (we have TS16949 certificate , in Europe our RS-2000 WDM already be appointed to use in Automative industry,so there are a lot of PCB factory from china ,from korea ,from Thailand are buying RS-2000 WDM for their Europe automotive order).



Electronica spray ink RS-2000 SP(our electronica spray ink is sucessful in Korea market already)

PISM green colour RS-2000GL

PISM other colours RS-2000 BL,K,Y,R ,and others.

$UV cured solder mask UV-1000 G green colour

UV cured solder mask UV-1000 W white colour

Etching ink RS-1200,RS-1280,RS-8580

UV etching ink UV-680,UV 690.

Conduction current carbon ink RF-1860

Low pressure coating ink:RS-2000 BDHF

Marking ink.



All of our products are approved by UL ,(UL filenumber :E-310593).



Main customers in china :Founder technology ,Tiger builder ,Red board ,KB

,mankun and so on.



Due to we are setting up a new factory ,the total produce capacity will

reach 800tons per month.



In order to meet the new capacity we must develop oversea market largely

with very competitive price.



Our oversea market is developing very fast on the basis of our competitive

price ,stable quality ,excellent service.

Now our oversea market is :korea ,russia ,india ,parkistan,saudi,brazil

,usa,vietnam,turkey,Iran,malaysia and so on.



Consindering the cost ,now more and more PCB manufacturers choose china

mainland PCB ink supplier.



Now we are developing your market,so if we can get cooperation chance from

you then we will be very much appreciated.



Looking forward to hearing from you and best regards.



Mrs. Wang


****************************************************************

Export Manager

Jiangmen ABQ Electronic Material CO.,LTD

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abq.pcb.ink

Video: https://youtu.be/iZEE5h3H6Dg

Web: http://www.jmbq.com.cn

E-MAIL: abqink@hotmail.com | abqink@gmail.com

export@jmbq.com.cn

SKYPE: abqink@hotmail.com

MP: 0086-18501626226

(Whatsapp,Viber,Line,Kakao,Wechat)