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I know many Americans who believe it\'s necessary. And for some reason you guys fit them seperately to outlets where you think you need it. At least in the UK they just stick one in the fusebox for the whole house. Why do something more than once?
Do you get many false trips?
The GF outlet in our kitchen occasionally trips when I use my hand
blender, but I think it\'s from emi, the switch sparking, not actual
ground leakage. No big deal, the reset button is right there.
Not so easy if you have a whole house protector. You have to find the
device that caused the trip. Maybe find a flashlight first.
On 28/06/2023 18:37, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-28 18:31, Rod Speed wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:10:07 +1000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-06-28 12:59, Rod Speed wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:18:00 +1000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-06-28 11:39, Mark Carver wrote:
On 28/06/2023 10:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from
something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire
somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a
grounded point?
Well.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU91mxRplu4
What happens when the entire glass insulator is wet? :-?
Nothing special, most obviously wih the glass insulators
on 350KV and 500KV transmission lines.
Don\'t they become surface conductive to ground?
Not very and at the moment when they do enough current will flow to dry
them out again PDQ but no more. Condensing fogs and dew or sticky snow
are more likely to cause trouble for them than rain.
Nope, if they did, the line would shut down.
But I don\'t understand how it doesn\'t happen. They are throwing water
spray to them, a lot of water, from below. The entire surface of the
glass must be getting wet.
They are designed to have a rain shadow, but even if it did there is
enough power in the line to evaporate small amounts of pure water away
(which isn\'t a very good conductor in the first place).
This explains the mechanics reasonably well:
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2016/10/insulators-used-in-overhead-power-lines.html
On Mon, 03 Jul 2023 03:01:25 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 20:47:19 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 20:01:43 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 18:34:30 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 18:27:51 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
Presumably it was continuous water, not a mist like I\'m spraying the parrot with.
Do you guys have 120V because you still haven\'t invented outlets with switches on them, or plugs with sleeved pins, so every time you put a plug in our out, you\'ve got live pins right next to your fingers?
This is the Wild West. Life is cheap.
Yet everything is super expensive over there.
Because it\'s super good and there are too many over-paid engineers. We
just got back from the Alemany Farmers\' Market and that stuff is both
good and cheap. The seasonal stuff, fresh from the farm, is cherries,
peaches, beans, corn, and Romanesco (broccoli or cauliflower, nobody
seems sure.)
We have some bullshit over here called \"Fair trade\" which pays farmers a \"fair price\" instead of what the market decides. Look, it\'s a business, they compete. If the farmer can\'t make a profit, either he\'s not as good as Mr Jones next door, or there are too many farmers.
120 barely tickles anyhow.
The last 240 shock I got was through my finger, touching the live input by mistake while feeling the temperature of the transformer in a UPS. Stupid grounded crap. If it wasn\'t grounded I wouldn\'t have got a shock, don\'t they realise you need to complete the circuit?
Indeed, so why the fuss about GFCI over there?
Scardey-cat politicians mostly.
I know many Americans who believe it\'s necessary. And for some reason you guys fit them seperately to outlets where you think you need it. At least in the UK they just stick one in the fusebox for the whole house. Why do something more than once?
Do you get many false trips?
The GF outlet in our kitchen occasionally trips when I use my hand
blender, but I think it\'s from emi, the switch sparking, not actual
ground leakage. No big deal, the reset button is right there.
On 2023-07-03 07:05, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jul 2023 03:01:25 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 20:47:19 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 20:01:43 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
...
Indeed, so why the fuss about GFCI over there?
Scardey-cat politicians mostly.
I know many Americans who believe it\'s necessary. And for some reason you guys fit them seperately to outlets where you think you need it. At least in the UK they just stick one in the fusebox for the whole house. Why do something more than once?
Do you get many false trips?
Not even once per month. I get one now and then with some rainfalls, I
suspect somewhere in the laundry room (a hut in the patio) there is some
fault or faulty equipment.
On Mon, 03 Jul 2023 03:02:29 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 12:25:47 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 12:40:32 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-07-01 20:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:39:46 +0100, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 11:41:06 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 28/06/2023 10:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you
spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist,
could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
High voltage electric pylons and torrential rain?
Heavy rain will tend to clean the insulators, rather than
inducing tracking.
Rainwater is not deionized, surely?
Actually, it is. It is evaporated water, mostly. But once up there in
liquid form, it can pick whatever substances are in the atmosphere
Natural, clean rain water is acidic, pH around 5.5.
Would that make it conduct?
In bulk liquid form, certainly. But droplets are separated by air
gaps.
Is it acidic because of that alledgedly dangerous CO2 we\'re making?
Mostly yes. But CO2 was here before people. It was over 6000 PPM once,
so it rained free fizzy water.
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
Google it.
Not very well. There was a myth busters covering this, the myth that
pissing on a live third rail could kill you, it did not as the water was
droplets in the air and hence needed a higher voltage to bridge the gaps.
Also of course all water is not the same, conductivity wise.
So if you have say a tesla coil giving very high voltages, spray would tend
to help conduction, as you can often hear near pylons on foggy damp days.
Brian
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 04 Jul 2023 01:41:06 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
What can I tell you? I\'ve been doing this for 20 years, all winter, all
summer, rain, snow. I only pick it up to use the lawnmower or
weedwacker and then I drop it wherever I am when I diconnect it. After
a few days the grass grows and you can\'t see it.
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
The breaker might break. That is, not work.
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 04 Jul 2023 01:41:06 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
What can I tell you? I\'ve been doing this for 20 years, all winter, all
summer, rain, snow. I only pick it up to use the lawnmower or
weedwacker and then I drop it wherever I am when I diconnect it. After
a few days the grass grows and you can\'t see it.
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
The breaker might break. That is, not work.
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 04 Jul 2023 01:41:06 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
What can I tell you? I\'ve been doing this for 20 years, all winter, all
summer, rain, snow. I only pick it up to use the lawnmower or
weedwacker and then I drop it wherever I am when I diconnect it. After
a few days the grass grows and you can\'t see it.
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
The breaker might break. That is, not work.
On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 06:14:58 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 04 Jul 2023 01:41:06 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
What can I tell you? I\'ve been doing this for 20 years, all winter, all
summer, rain, snow. I only pick it up to use the lawnmower or
weedwacker and then I drop it wherever I am when I diconnect it. After
a few days the grass grows and you can\'t see it.
I\'m guessing the connector\'s connections are quite a bit inset and the water doesn\'t flow into them.
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
The breaker might break. That is, not work.
Never known of that happening,
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 06 Jul 2023 01:56:53 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 06:14:58 +0100, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 04 Jul 2023 01:41:06 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 16:27:37 +0100, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
I would think it\'s possible, but my own somewhat related experience has
been: I have an electric lawn mower with a 100\' extension cord that I
no longer pull in when I\'m done mowing the lawn or weed-wacking. It
lies in the grass all year, even in the rain, even under the snow.
After the grass grows even a little, it\'s hidden by the grass.
I have a GFI circuit breaker on that circuit and if current wwere going
to ground and not back though the neutral wire, the breaker would trip,
I don\'t understand, surely there\'s continuous water from the live to the ground? It\'s lying in wet grass!
What can I tell you? I\'ve been doing this for 20 years, all winter, all
summer, rain, snow. I only pick it up to use the lawnmower or
weedwacker and then I drop it wherever I am when I diconnect it. After
a few days the grass grows and you can\'t see it.
I\'m guessing the connector\'s connections are quite a bit inset and the water doesn\'t flow into them.
I think it\'s about 1/8\"**, but I\'ll try to remember to look next time
I\'m outside.
**No one knows what that is in meters.
but it\'s only tripped 3 times in about 20 years, and since the bat hroom
and kitchen sink receptacles are on the same breaker, I\'m not positive
it\'s the extension cord that did those.
I\'m cautious in that if it\'s damp, I pick up the cord 6 feet from the
end, but I\'ve never had even a tingle.
Why be cautious if there\'s a breaker?
The breaker might break. That is, not work.
Never known of that happening,
Your experience and knowledge are not enough data for me, to make a
decions.
despite the bullshit on them about test weekly. Seriously? Turn all the power off in your house every week?
Huh? I don\'t do that.
I\'m guessing only OCD folk actually do it.
What does that have to do with me?
Six months after I moved in (4-year old house) the breaker used to trip
fairly often. I didn\'t know why or how they worked but eventually I
thought the breaker might be broken. I replaced it and it stopped
tripping. So if it can break so that it trips too much, maybe it can
break so it doesn\'t trip enough. And it\'s really no effort to pick up
the cord away from the end, versus the thought of being electrecuted
standing on even slightly damp grass.
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
Try this:
Two close parallel plates with some modest DC voltage between them,
and coupled into an audio amp and a speaker or headphones.
Spray some water or steam and listen, or use fog if you have it.
e-fields in a bees or ants nest would be cool too.
We live in a world of electric fields that we can\'t sense.
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:24:20 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
Try this:
Two close parallel plates with some modest DC voltage between them,
and coupled into an audio amp and a speaker or headphones.
Spray some water or steam and listen, or use fog if you have it.
e-fields in a bees or ants nest would be cool too.
We live in a world of electric fields that we can\'t sense.
Not sure what you mean. Do you hear things it picks up from outside it, or do you hear the fog drifting?
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 21:15:51 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:24:20 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
Try this:
Two close parallel plates with some modest DC voltage between them,
and coupled into an audio amp and a speaker or headphones.
Spray some water or steam and listen, or use fog if you have it.
e-fields in a bees or ants nest would be cool too.
We live in a world of electric fields that we can\'t sense.
Not sure what you mean. Do you hear things it picks up from outside it, or do you hear the fog drifting?
I would imagine charged droplets impacting the electrodes and making
sounds. Shine a UV flashlight into the fog too maybe. Sort of the
audible version of the Millikan Oil Drop Experiment.
Ambient magnetic fields can sound cool too.
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 21:15:51 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 15:24:20 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:13:39 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
If there was a fine mist being sprayed (like you get from something you spray plants with), and there was a live wire somewhere in the mist, could it jump through the spray to a grounded point?
Try this:
Two close parallel plates with some modest DC voltage between them,
and coupled into an audio amp and a speaker or headphones.
Spray some water or steam and listen, or use fog if you have it.
e-fields in a bees or ants nest would be cool too.
We live in a world of electric fields that we can\'t sense.
Not sure what you mean. Do you hear things it picks up from outside it, or do you hear the fog drifting?
I would imagine charged droplets impacting the electrodes and making
sounds. Shine a UV flashlight into the fog too maybe. Sort of the
audible version of the Millikan Oil Drop Experiment.
Ambient magnetic fields can sound cool too.