Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:BlI4OMFFCALPFwcP@jasper.org.uk...

In article <525bc56a7edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

The pole transformers aren't pretty either, though produce quite
spectacular pyrotechnics when they fail, which seems to happen more
often than it should.

I'm on my second one, but the first went quietly.

One went off like the 4th of July a few streets over, maybe 10 years ago.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525bd43a76dave@davenoise.co.uk...

In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/trakkies/002.jpg

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:50:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net>
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525bd43a76dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/trakkies/002.jpg

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?

The ring returns to the same breaker. There isn't a separate one for
each end of the ring.

d

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Mortimer" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Vq-dnV4DMobXuLHSnZ2dnUVZ8sednZ2d@brightview.co.uk...

Ah, is the limit on a 110V circuit only 15A?

True for common circuits wired with 14 gauge wire.

20 gauge wiring is protected for 20 amps.

I can see how you'd hit that limit pretty quickly. I'd assumed that with
half the voltage the circuits would be rated for twice the current so as
to still be able to drive equipment of the same power.

No.

I suppose a 3 kW (3-bar) electric fire needs more than a normal circuit,

We simply don't have those. Our room heaters are usually are rated at about
15 amps max.

given that it draws 12.5 A at 240 V, so an equivalent one for 110V would
be a little over 25 A. And as for a 6 kW electric shower, that would be 50
A. Quite a current! OK, so showers need their own circuit even in 240 V
land!

We don't have electric showers. If electric is used for water heating it is
used via a central electric water heater on 240 v. Natural gas rules for
heating around here. The economics are far better.

We've had copious amounts natural gas around here from the southwest US and
gulf area since right after WW2. Prior to that there was coal gas in lesser
amounts and more expensive.

As a matter of interest, when a mains socket is switched from a wall
switch for use with table lamps so they can all be switched on as you come
into a room, are those circuits rated at the same current as other
non-switched circuits or are they specially labelled to prevent people
accidentally plugging powerful appliances into what is effectively a
lighting circuit?

The socket, wiring and switch would usually be rated at 15 amps or sometimes
20 amps.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4f2e2cb3.21321265@news.eternal-september.org...

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:50:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525bd43a76dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/trakkies/002.jpg

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?


The ring returns to the same breaker. There isn't a separate one for
each end of the ring.

The breakers are 4 pole?

 

[John Williamson]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4f2e2cb3.21321265@news.eternal-september.org...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:50:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525bd43a76dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg
Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.
I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/trakkies/002.jpg
If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?

The ring returns to the same breaker. There isn't a separate one for
each end of the ring.

The breakers are 4 pole?

No, the breakers are normally only single pole, breaking the live only

with the neutral and earth (ground) being permanently connected to a bus
bar. Both ends of the ring come to the same point on the breaker.

There's a diagram and explanation of how these circuits work here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:00:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net>
wrote:

"Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4f2e2cb3.21321265@news.eternal-september.org...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:50:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525bd43a76dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <gLGdnZK8lPYxlLbSnZ2dnUVZ5vmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/trakkies/002.jpg

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?


The ring returns to the same breaker. There isn't a separate one for
each end of the ring.

The breakers are 4 pole?

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.

d

 

[J G Miller]

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 09:40:03h -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

I live over a mile from the lake.

Does Lake St Clair normally freeze over?

I would guess that this year it has not.

you can see my house from several angles.

No TV antenna it would appear. Have you never been
tempted to put up a tower?

Do you watch CBET or TV Ontario very often?

I notice that you are at the back of a mini strip mall
on Mack Avenue in which there are two vacancies.

Have these now been filled or have more stores gone under
since the Google car passed by?

Type "grosse kercheval henry" into Google Maps

Presumably you mean the area around Henry Ford Medical Center Pierson Clinic.

It is surprising how many of the newer building look quite similar
to new buildings that one would see in new retails developments in
outer suburbs of some European cities.

 

[Andy Champ]

On 02/02/2012 22:24, David Looser wrote:

"Arny Krueger"<arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so many
circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe are
three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase. The one
on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

David.

I'm not sure what the unit above the isolator is

One of them was the relay for the PIR-triggered lights on the landing
outside. Nice solid clonk. At any time of night

Andy

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:22:52 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

I have a 1500 watt electric pot that heats 1.7 L of water in about 3
minutes. Less water, down to about a liter (what it takes to cover the
coils) heats significantly quicker.

Cover the coils? How last centaury. B-)

Most electric kettles this side of the pond have a flat plate element
in the bottom, minimum quantity about half a mug full. We also have
"rapid boil" kettles rated at just under 3kW. Similar 1.7l (3.5 US
liquid pints, 3 UK pints) capacity though.

Just plugs into the ring, along with the microwave, toaster(*),
washing machine, tumble dryer etc, none of those have circuits of
their own. B-)
How ever it is becoming more common to have the kitchen (and thus all
those appliances) on it's own ring, then two others for "up stairs"
and "down stairs".

(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[Mortimer]

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote in message
news:KqGdnd4JyKcws7HSnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@giganews.com...

"Mortimer" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Vq-dnV4DMobXuLHSnZ2dnUVZ8sednZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
given that it draws 12.5 A at 240 V, so an equivalent one for 110V would
And as for a 6 kW electric shower, that would be 50 A. Quite a current!
OK, so showers need their own circuit even in 240 V land!

We don't have electric showers. If electric is used for water heating it
is used via a central electric water heater on 240 v. Natural gas rules
for heating around here. The economics are far better.

We've had copious amounts natural gas around here from the southwest US
and gulf area since right after WW2. Prior to that there was coal gas in
lesser amounts and more expensive.

Ah. There are some villages or parts of towns which to this day don't have a
gas supply. My parents have a holiday cottage in the Yorkshire Dales (near
where the TV series All Creatures Great and Small was filmed, if you ever
saw that) and about 15 years ago a gas pipe was installed up the main road
to serve other villages nearby. Houses on that road got a gas supply
installed for free but the main part of the village 1/4 mile away were
quoted a stupid, completely unaffordable cost for installing a gas pipe. The
farmer offered to dig a trench alongside the road to reduce the gas
company's cost (for safety reasons only the gas company could actually
install the pipe and connect it to the trunk pipe) but even that wasn't
going to reduce the cost at all.

So we're stuck with either oil or bottled Calor propane gas for heating.
When my parents had central heating installed, bottled gas was cheaper than
oil so they had a gas boiler fitted. Now it's the other way round: bottled
propane is a horrendous price, second only to electric storage heaters, and
oil would have been cheaper. Such is life!

Likewise my fiancee's village doesn't have a gas supply though I'm sure
there will be a big gas pipe going along the main road 1/2 mile away.
Probably the story is the same: "We'll install a gas pipe but it will cost a
horrendous amount per house". My first house didn't have gas although it was
built as recently as the mid-80s. The houses nearby did: it seems that the
builder of my estate chose not to pay for a gas feed to his houses but the
builder of the neighbouring estate elected to have gas supplied to his
houses, so there was a branch feeding one estate but not the other. Very
short-sighted - and it was reflected in the house prices. Electric storage
heaters and an electric immersion heater as the *only* means of heating
bath-water (as opposed to as a suppliment to a gas boiler) worked out
expensive. That was the immersion heater that exploded (see my earlier
posting). Luckily the tank was fitted with two heating elements: the one
that heated the whole tank only came on at night when there was a cheaper
tariff (*) but there was another half-way up the tank that heated at least
*some* water at daytime tariff.

(*) "Economy 7", which is a dual tariff whereby you pay slightly more than
normal for daytime electricity but significantly less for 7 hours during the
night when a timer (installed by the electricty company and sealed to
prevent it being tampered with to change the cheap hours!) turns on storage
heaters and the whole-tank immersion heater.

The most useless type of central heating that I've ever encountered was in
my parents' previous house, early 1970s vintage. Gas-fired hot-air heating
which had an enormous floor-to-ceiling boiler that pumped warm air through
aluminium ducts to grilles in the floor or wall. The air that came out of
the vent in my bedroom was barely detectable even with a feather and was
tepid at best. I started getting a vile smell in my bedroom and we
eventually discovered that my little sister had taken up her floor vent and
thrown a sandwich down there... which had started to go mouldy :-(

 

[J G Miller]

On Friday, February 3rd, 2012, at 21:24:22h +0000, Mortimer wrote:

So we're stuck with either oil or bottled Calor propane gas for heating.

Are you located near a shale deposit and have you considered drilling?

my little sister had taken up her floor vent and thrown a sandwich down there

At least it was not a mouse or rat.

 

[David Looser]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyufmb2.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk...

How ever it is becoming more common to have the kitchen (and thus all
those appliances) on it's own ring, then two others for "up stairs"
and "down stairs".

When I had my kitchen re-done recently I took the opportunity to split off

the kitchen sockets as a separate ring. My main motivation was to be able to
supply it from a separate RCD as, in my experience, kitchen appliances are
the major cause of nuisance tripping.

David.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message <q7SdnY4Nhbxc8rTSnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Michael A.
Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> writes:

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
[]
Fuck off Yank. Patronising bastards aren't you?


Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


What has the Nippon Electric Company done?

About as much as Lucas.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

David Looser wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:asidnWoZHLU0LLTSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com...


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.

What makes you think they don't? I have seen exactly ONE dryer
installed without an outlet, and it was directly under the fuse box.

Older dryer outlets & plugs were three pin, the current standard is a
four pin design, to include the safety ground.

The same goes for electric stoves, but those are usually 50A
connectors, instead of 20 or 30A.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <asidnWoZHLU0LLTSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the
house. The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

They are a single unit here. If natural gas is availible, you can
chose either. If not, you have the chioce ov very expensive propane, or
electric stoves.

Who is going to move a dryer from room to room? The refrigerator or
freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why would you want them
anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?

Yes, three so far. You've never built a house? Or an office
building with multiple kitchens?

Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?

The same reasons different European countries have different
standards. Some areas have plenty of natural gaas, and only require a
100 to 150 A service for new construction, or upgrades. Other areas
require 200 A service. The number, and location of outlets can vary,
becasue some stic to the NEC, while others insist on extras, like on
both sides of a narrow hallway, even though it is less than 10 feet.
Some materails are banned in some areas, becasue of high humdity, or
dsalt air. Others require conduit, becasue only IBEW union workers are
allowed to do ANY electrical or electronics cabling.

The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net
wrote:


"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9p0goiFn3nU1@mid.individual.net...
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.


Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Then it needed to be inspected and repaired. That is a common symptom
of an open neutral, or one that is failing.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike Tomlinson<mike@jasper.org.uk
wrote in Message id:<MHebmdBaLTKPFwHs@jasper.org.uk>:

In article<nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyjda42.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice<allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ElectricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article <525bc79f6edave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.

Or yellow. or Orange. Or Red. Or Green. Or Gray. It depends on
the OEM, some use it to identify their product. I've seen all thouse
colors in use.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:40:17 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <CMSdnd9dedQfc7bSnZ2dnUVZ5r6dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Arny Krueger <arnyk@cocmast.net> wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

About the same as if we used lighting spec cable for our sockets. Not
a great plan, I'd say.

d

Oops, I forgot. With a ring main we are effectively using it doubled
up - two runs in parallel. That means that we only load our domestic
cables a quarter as much as they do in the US. No wonder we don't
suffer from voltage sag here when we turn things on.

#12 AWG is used for 20A circuits. (Outlets) How is that 1/4?

#14 AWG is used for 15A circuits. (Lighting)

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.